How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by furcifer » Aug 14 2019 6:28pm

SquidBonez wrote:
Aug 14 2019 3:37pm

Battery range, heat, and durability is the answer. A lot of motors can take way more power than what they're supplied assuming they can be cooled. Plus massive discharges hurts battery life expectancy. Just as ICE cars are tuned for a balance of performance and longevity, so are EVs. And that's why reflashes are so popular with ICE cars, as they can bring more power out of the engine with nothing but software (at the expensive of engine life).
Like I said, no engineer is going to leave that option on the table. And no manufacturer is going to "give away" potential. Not in the automotive market.

Tesla already has ludicrous mode and that's their own upgrade to the insane mode. I'm not sure why the exact same thing isn't going to happen in the future?

I think it's also safe to assume that any flashing the company doesn't authorize will void the warranty. That's going to put a damper on things me thinks.

So I'm just not seeing it. Not unless the feds come in and start to dictate how many peak watts a sedan can have, or limit 0-60 times or something. Otherwise every EV should come with multiple modes like cruising, sport,race, ludicrous, launch, battery saver, motor life, thug life, hey baby, beginner driver, grandma, grandpa, Sunday, Monday etc. right from the factory. :mrgreen:

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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by billvon » Aug 14 2019 6:32pm

furcifer wrote:
Aug 14 2019 6:28pm
Like I said, no engineer is going to leave that option on the table. And no manufacturer is going to "give away" potential. Not in the automotive market.
They already do. Every vehicle out there is a mass of tradeoffs. Lifetime vs emissions vs top speed vs insurance rates vs 'feel' vs styling. Something always gets "left on the table" because someone else wants it and takes it. Modding simply makes a different set of tradeoffs.
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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by furcifer » Aug 14 2019 9:19pm

billvon wrote:
Aug 14 2019 6:32pm
They already do. Every vehicle out there is a mass of tradeoffs. Lifetime vs emissions vs top speed vs insurance rates vs 'feel' vs styling. Something always gets "left on the table" because someone else wants it and takes it. Modding simply makes a different set of tradeoffs.
That's true, but I can't see any reason it wouldn't come from the factory that way.

Whatever the design can safely handle based on what the company decides will be made available to the customer in terms of programming.

I'm trying to think of a reason to have a performance market like "Monster Cables" for your car and I'm not seeing it. I'm going to ship the car from the factory capable of handling 1.5 times the peak current the motor is capable of handling. So what would be the point of anyone changing them out?

This goes back to my saying electrics are extremely efficient compared to ICE's. So pulling 10% more power out of an ICE is possible where it's almost impossible to do the same with an electric.

The only thing I can think of is cooling. But that would be a means of sustaining the peak which it's already designed for.

Again, this in terms of what would be considered a "performance" mod today. I can honestly see the whole concept shifting away from faster and quicker to longer range and less charging. Similar to what you see in the Prius "ultra milers". "This puppy's got 23% more range and 93% battery health bro, I haven't charged it for days". Just nerds, everyone nerds

Funny, on a side note, I was riding the other day and I was thinking one of the things I'm going to miss is that "garage" smell. You know that cigarettes, grease and gasoline smell. Someone's going to make fortune making an air freshner that's gets rid of that ozoney burnt electrical smell. :mrgreen:

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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by billvon » Aug 14 2019 10:54pm

furcifer wrote:
Aug 14 2019 9:19pm
That's true, but I can't see any reason it wouldn't come from the factory that way.
Because they don't want to pay for warranty repairs. Because they want to sell more, and the cool-looking body sells more cars than the really aerodynamic body. Because they want to make the car a little cheaper, and decide that the savings will make them more money than it will cost them. For example, they may well get to the point in Model 3 production where they say "OK guys, the BOM has to be less than $21,000 to turn a profit on these cars. We have to do whatever it takes to get there. Thinner gauge wiring? Less cooling capability? Whatever - GET IT DONE."
I'm trying to think of a reason to have a performance market like "Monster Cables" for your car and I'm not seeing it.
But that's a different story. People don't buy monster cables because they need them - they buy them because marketing convinces them that they need it (which is a very different story.)
Last edited by billvon on Aug 14 2019 11:23pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by Dauntless » Aug 14 2019 11:09pm

People are over complicating this:

So I really should get on that QS sales thread and ask about replacing the hub on an old 'Handsome Boy' style scooter I have kicking around. I must have that key kicking around. Even if I'd deemed it fixable it was too big and heavy to be 500 watt. I doubt I'd be the first to upgrade a heavy, underpowered scooter like that, seems like it could be fine in the 1,000 watt plus range. Since it never worked I can't say if there is any display to be affected by a new controller.

Also, it was lead acid. They seriously melted. I mean distorted shapes and everything. Probably related to whatever burned up. The future still sees a lot of conversions from lead acid, for lipo or what might replace it. That includes figuring out where to put the additional batteries since it was also too short range while underpowered, so we're talking MUCH more lipo. 3x the battery power means what? 2x the physical size?

A guy wanted to make the same move on a Lepton Oxygen, an 1800w but complicated electronically and maybe he was right. I expect my conversion would be easier than his, with more bikes like mine than his, but still many like his. Since his is all around a more comfortable bike I'm sure many would want to save their Oxygen. I'm not sure the ramifications for displays on the Leptons, but there must be problems.

Either bike I've described should have sufficient brakes, etc. If you MUST play around with the little Currie stick scooter you won't have enough brakes, you won't have a platform that handles more speed at all, etc. But a bigger controller, motor, damn easy to do. And monster cables, so much fun on this easy conversion.

You can apply that thinking to a lot of others, but I'd say many aren't worth upgrading but people will insist, the better it is as is the harder it probably is to upgrade. A blanket statement, but I doubt the reasonable people will argue with it.
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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by furcifer » Aug 14 2019 11:36pm

billvon wrote:
Aug 14 2019 10:54pm
Because they don't want to pay for warranty repairs. Because they want to sell more, and the cool-looking body sells more cars than the really aerodynamic battery. Because they want to make the car a little cheaper, and decide that the savings will make them more money than it will cost them. For example, they may well get to the point in Model 3 production where they say "OK guys, the BOM has to be less than $21,000 to turn a profit on these cars. We have to do whatever it takes to get there. Thinner gauge wiring? Less cooling capability? Whatever - GET IT DONE."
But you still have to engineer to the peak output which happens at start-up. In an ICE I can limit the top end, limit revs, fuel etc. You can't do that with electrics.

When we're talking about things that people want but don't need I would say that's "customization" and not "performance". I can see that market growing considerably because people don't need 50 versions of 1000 models, but they still want to separate themselves from the crowd. This kind of ties in with AGW but vehicles today are retarded. Humans don't need the variety we have. We're still living high on the fossil fuel hog and the economy for the last century was basically driven by Henry Ford. When that starts to fade I think people will see cars for what they are, a tool to get from A to B and not a projection of their personality and lifestyle. I can see a more utilitarian market where choices are reduced to less than a handful because it's just more practical.

It's a bit radical, but I almost think it's time to pull a Volkswagen and eliminate the automotive market. Everyone get together and build us a cheap reliable vehicle. Give us a 4 door, a hatchback, a minvan and truck that's going to cover 97% of everyone's needs. Stop researching and developing 700hp cars and get us into EV's.

This is somewhat tangent to the OP. But I think it's something to consider when we talk about the future.

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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by Hillhater » Aug 15 2019 12:18am

furcifer wrote:
Aug 14 2019 11:36pm
..... In an ICE I can limit the top end, limit revs, fuel etc. You can't do that with electrics. .
......but you said....
furcifer wrote:
Aug 14 2019 11:36pm
...
Tesla already has ludicrous mode and that's their own upgrade to the insane mode. I'm not sure why the exact same thing isn't going to happen in the future?....
You do know Tesla can lock out any of those options..remotely !
They can limit the speed, alter the battery range, shut down the vehicle completely if they chose.....
That is far mor restrictive than anything an ICE supplier has done.
There will be software “hacks” to bypass that type of restrictions
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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by neptronix » Aug 15 2019 12:47am

Aero mods might be possible on some of these cars. Tesla can't lock you out of that, lol
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by furcifer » Aug 15 2019 12:47am

Hillhater wrote:
Aug 15 2019 12:18am
There will be software “hacks” to bypass that type of restrictions
You think so? I don't think you'll see very many new owners doing it. After the warranty period maybe. Even then, I think a lot of people would rather leave it be and then the manufacturer is liable. I guess it depends on the security and encryption at the time. I'd still rather the company have that control than end up installing some sort of malware in my car.

I think there's the possibility once the novelty wears off people will demand more autonomy.

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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by Hillhater » Aug 15 2019 7:04am

furcifer wrote:
Aug 15 2019 12:47am
You think so? I don't think you'll see very many new owners doing it. After the warranty period maybe. Even then, I think a lot of people would rather leave it be and then the manufacturer is liable.
Why not, ?....there are plenty of examples of buyers of Merc’s, BMW’s, Porsche’s , even Rolls, Bently’s , etc driving them straight from the showroom to the custom/ mod shop for “ customising” “remapping”, etc etc...
......all of which voids the manufacturers warranty .
Im sure you have seen the videos of owners converting their new Tesla 3’s into pick ups and convertibles !
Some owners just dont care about warranty.
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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by furcifer » Aug 15 2019 8:00am

Hillhater wrote:
Aug 15 2019 7:04am
[ Im sure you have seen the videos of owners converting their new Tesla 3’s into pick ups and convertibles !
Some owners just dont care about warranty.
Those are all examples of customization, which I agree is going to be part of vehicle ownership for years to come. It's the performance mods that I think may go the way of the dodo.

Is anyone reprogramming the P100D? It seems to be the factory is already ahead of the curve in this regard. ICE's are heavily regulated at the tailpipe and this tends to be the reason people re-map them, not because the manufacturer forgot. Look at the new Supra's, they're shipping with deliberately unrated bhp and a fuel delivery that can easily be bumped to give another +100hp.

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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by ZeroEm » Aug 15 2019 9:06am

I keep hearing how expensive EV's are, what a load. I have had my leaf (one of the slowest) for a year now. It is cheap to own, my breaks may never need to be changed. all the money people spend on ICE and they call it cheap, do the math!
The stop light drags, when an aggressive driver wants to pull out and cut me off, it is up to me no ICE can keep up with me up to the city speed limit from a stop light why would I want to make it faster?
I keep it in ECO mode, regular will spin the tires.
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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by Hillhater » Aug 15 2019 9:34am

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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by furcifer » Aug 15 2019 11:38am

dp meant to hit edit not submit.
Last edited by furcifer on Aug 15 2019 11:50am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by furcifer » Aug 15 2019 11:45am

ZeroEm wrote:
Aug 15 2019 9:06am
I keep it in ECO mode, regular will spin the tires.
I think that's to be expected. It's just a result of electric motor characteristics. The factory has to put in programming to maintain tire contact at start-up. If you wanted a "burn out" mode for some reason it's not very hard to do, and not much of a performance mod.

If you wanted to put more rubber on the road and get bigger tires I still think it's something the manufacturer would provide to the customer and not something you'd need to buy from a shop. Maybe not today, but in the very near future.

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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by furcifer » Aug 15 2019 11:49am

Look at the link, they show a stage 2 "upgrade" to 334hp. Factory 2018 lists 518hp? Seems like snake oil.

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/2018/tesla ... -awd/specs

eta: the second link "It achieved 508 hp – significantly more than the stock version’s 416 hp."
And he's running Tesla code. So it's more of a lateral move, he's basically done what Tesla hasn't gotten around to doing. Yet.
etaa: and looking at the third one they seem to be touting peak hp.



There's nothing aftermarket can do that the factory can't. It's not like swapping in a cam with more duration, or doing a header, removing cats etc.

I have little doubt the engineers know exactly what you can put through any motor before there are problems. From what I see from Tesla is they gather the information from users and make adjustments to the programming based on real world testing.

So I'm not seeing the benefit of going to an aftermarket shop and having them do it. All they can do is exceed what the factory is giving you with little or no experience on how it will actually pan out.

It's not much of a "performance" mod if all you can do is swap parts out to the next model up either. I could work out that it's cheaper to do it, but again I don't see that happening.
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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by billvon » Aug 15 2019 11:51am

furcifer wrote:
Aug 14 2019 11:36pm
But you still have to engineer to the peak output which happens at start-up. In an ICE I can limit the top end, limit revs, fuel etc. You can't do that with electrics.
Of course you can. You do it in software.
When we're talking about things that people want but don't need I would say that's "customization" and not "performance".
OK. Then all changes that people make are customization. No one needs 0-60 times faster than 2.8 seconds.
It's a bit radical, but I almost think it's time to pull a Volkswagen and eliminate the automotive market. Everyone get together and build us a cheap reliable vehicle. Give us a 4 door, a hatchback, a minvan and truck that's going to cover 97% of everyone's needs.
Eliminate the automotive market by building new, more appealing cars? I don't really see the logic there.
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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by furcifer » Aug 15 2019 12:08pm

billvon wrote:
Aug 15 2019 11:51am
.Of course you can. You do it in software.
When we're talking about things that people want but don't need I would say that's "customization" and not "performance".
OK. Then all changes that people make are customization. No one needs 0-60 times faster than 2.8 seconds.
It's a bit radical, but I almost think it's time to pull a Volkswagen and eliminate the automotive market. Everyone get together and build us a cheap reliable vehicle. Give us a 4 door, a hatchback, a minvan and truck that's going to cover 97% of everyone's needs.
Eliminate the automotive market by building new, more appealing cars? I don't really see the logic there.
But that's just it, the software is the performance. Otherwise you've got spinning wheels. The motor is "tuned" in the traditional sense.

Yah, I'm walking a very thin line here between customization and performance. But I just don't see a market for "unlocking potential" if you will, when the manufacturer is basically limiting it to make the car derivable.

It's not like bike motors today, cars are coming with programmable controllers that can do whatever you want them to do.

It doesn't make sense to sell a car with a 20Kw motor and limit it through the controller to 10Kw. Not once the industry gets going. You produce a 10Kw motor and a 20kW motor.

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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by billvon » Aug 15 2019 12:14pm

furcifer wrote:
Aug 15 2019 12:08pm
It's not like bike motors today, cars are coming with programmable controllers that can do whatever you want them to do.
Not easily. And although no one has done this yet (fortunately) it is quite possible to make it impossible to hack vehicle controllers.
It doesn't make sense to sell a car with a 20Kw motor and limit it through the controller to 10Kw.
Of course it makes sense. My first car (a Leaf) did just that. It limited motor output to protect the battery from overcurrent.
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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by ZeroEm » Aug 15 2019 12:35pm

I enjoyed hot rodding cars but one must grow up. I put a factory 351W HO into a ugly mustang 2 that car would burn the tires off.
I realized yesterday the one mistake that Obama made, saved the car industry for a few more years (not trucks) they are shutting them down to ramp up for the EV era. He could have started it 10 years sooner! I remember EV1's in the 80's great cars.

In the Future Electric Vehicles will be Modified by figuring out how to discharge batteries faster into the motors (hotrodders) and the others will be body mods, with the batteries and motors out of the way the car body can look like anything that slips thru the air like a trout for distance.
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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by furcifer » Aug 15 2019 1:33pm

billvon wrote:
Aug 15 2019 12:14pm
Of course it makes sense. My first car (a Leaf) did just that. It limited motor output to protect the battery from overcurrent.
I would say just because they did it doesn't mean it makes sense. I would put forth that the engineers only had the one motor to work with and it's a work around.

eta: plus I think companies are struggling right now to produce range numbers in order to compete with ICE's. Once that ship has sailed and people get used to the 100 mile range or whatever it is it won't be a factor.

My guess would be that they could only get the drive characteristics they wanted using a larger motor instead of designing a transmission to effectively control the torque curve.

It's that the case then I might be totally wrong in my estimation. If it's cheaper (by way of reducing complexity) or even more effective to oversize the motor and limit it through the controller it may stay this way.

My gut feeling it this is just because the industry is new and borrowing from ICE technology. So I wouldn't expect it to stay this way because it's inefficient and costly.
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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by furcifer » Aug 15 2019 1:37pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Aug 15 2019 12:35pm
I enjoyed hot rodding cars but one must grow up. I put a factory 351W HO into a ugly mustang 2 that car would burn the tires off.
I realized yesterday the one mistake that Obama made, saved the car industry for a few more years (not trucks) they are shutting them down to ramp up for the EV era. He could have started it 10 years sooner! I remember EV1's in the 80's great cars.

In the Future Electric Vehicles will be Modified by figuring out how to discharge batteries faster into the motors (hotrodders) and the others will be body mods, with the batteries and motors out of the way the car body can look like anything that slips thru the air like a trout for distance.
I had the same thoughts. But I think the economy is still very much tied to the automotive industry. But it won't be long before NA and much of the Western world is a service economy, with manufacturing done in poorer countries (willing to do whatever it takes)

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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by ZeroEm » Aug 15 2019 1:45pm

Agreed, biggest problem is the number of cars on the road does not matter what they run on. So smaller and slower should be the way forward. What do you think 25 mph or 32 kph single seater's.
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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by furcifer » Aug 15 2019 3:02pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Aug 15 2019 1:45pm
Agreed, biggest problem is the number of cars on the road does not matter what they run on. So smaller and slower should be the way forward. What do you think 25 mph or 32 kph single seater's.
We had a Smart car for a few years and it was fine for the city and the highway. The problem was the roads are so bad it's very hard on vehicles with a small wheelbase. Bump I didn't feel in the Passat would engulf the Smart car, usually at stop signs. So I think we would need to improve the roads.

60 km/h with good acceleration seems to keep up with traffic very well in the city. It seems to be a safe speed on most roads, you don't get aggressive drivers on you as much.

Which is another thing they need to crack down on. People need to learn to share the road. If people did that then 25 or 30mph vehicles are much more feasible. Right now it would be hard to do. You really need an EV lane. Around here they just started putting in bike lanes.

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Re: How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

Post by SquidBonez » Aug 15 2019 8:26pm

furcifer wrote:
Aug 14 2019 6:28pm
I think it's also safe to assume that any flashing the company doesn't authorize will void the warranty. That's going to put a damper on things me thinks.
Flashing usually voids the warranty on ICE cars anyway, plus I doubt people looking to seriously modify their car are worried about warranty.

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