Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by Odogster » Aug 10 2021 4:36pm

raylo32 wrote:
Aug 10 2021 6:53am
Yes, I remember Mavic Zap... it got pretty mixed reviews and I never tried it. They were as rare as hen's teeth and I believe I may have put eyes on only one example in our club ever. But now that Shimano and SRAM have perfected the technology I have to both agree and disagree with Chalo. First, I agree that the new electronic shifting setups are entirely unnecessary for 99% of the market. But I disagree that it is going to "go away" like Mavic Zap. There are a lot of "fools" that have and are simply willing to spend a lot of $$ to have the latest and most $$ thing. You see it everywhere, not just with bikes. Phones, cars, mattresses, whatever. In my bike club group probably more have Di2 than not now. And more and more are going discs on their road bikes... another entirely unnecessary thing. I mean discs on featherweight road bikes are REALLY unnecessary. But still selling like hotcakes. I am holding on to my vintage Litespeed Tuscany forever. Well, vintage except now running 11-speed.

Chalo wrote:
Aug 10 2021 12:57am
Odogster wrote:
Aug 09 2021 11:19pm
Apparently it didnt go away or this thread would not exist.
It actually went away twice. The 1993 version failed and went away, then the 1999 version failed and went away. Shimano introduced pneumatic shifting and the German company Acros introduced hydraulic shifting (which both went away) before there was another ill-fated attempt to get the next generation of rubes to trade all their wampum for electronic shifting.

Step right up!

Don't forget Camponolo EPS

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by raylo32 » Aug 10 2021 7:56pm

Chalo knows a lot but he is also a well know retro grouch curmudgeon when it comes to bicycle tech. Di2 and/or its successor and the similar SRAM offerings are here to stay for sure. But I am holding off until it is all wireless and has heads up hologram gear indication and hand gesture shifting.
Odogster wrote:
Aug 10 2021 4:32pm

Either way, regardless of the tenacity of electronic shifting in the market it seems extremely troll like to hunt down a thread specifically about the merits of di2, then insult the technology, then call the people that use it fools. Extremely unproductive and unneeded posts. One could make the "not needed" statement about a huge percentage of innovations since bikes have been able to be ridden successfully for many years so does that mean that nothing new is needed? I would also bet that you've never tried it and your opinions are like a butthole, everyone has one and they all stink. I guess almost every pro in a race is a fool because they use electronic shifting? I know as a troll your exact goal was to solicit responses like this so this is the last one you'll get from me.

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by Chalo » Aug 10 2021 8:55pm

If you can't differentiate between trolling and a history lesson, I can't help you. Point is, almost everything has already been tried in cycling tech, and the things that failed before tend to fail over and over again.

Shaft drive! Only this time it's electronic. Step right up!
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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by john61ct » Aug 10 2021 11:14pm


Odogster wrote:it seems extremely troll like to hunt down a thread specifically about the merits of di2, then insult the technology, then call the people that use it fools. Extremely unproductive and unneeded posts.
I completely disagree, and even if I end up becoming a di2 fanboy one day, I think experienced Luddites voicing their opposition is a wonderful public service to the community.

Especially for those of us that value simplicity frugality reliability and the ability to make field repairs in primitive locations.


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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by raylo32 » Aug 11 2021 5:45am

I don't run anything electronic and am not any sort of fan boy for it. But it is undeniably successful... and will remain so. Sure it is expensive and not "needed". But the world is full of such stuff and full of people willing to pay for it. Comparing the current offerings to mediocre ancient tech like Zap and ridiculous things like bicycle shaft drive is not a history lesson. It is anti-fanboy-ism. This stuff ain't going away. With the demand there is for it now the mfgs will keep improving it and trickle it down to even more lower groupsets. There will always be plenty of mech gear out there, too. Different strokes for different folks. The universe of riders is very diverse and there is and will continue to be something for everyone... from bargain Wally World shoppers to the high end where bikes cost over $10,000. Pedal bikes, I mean.
john61ct wrote:
Aug 10 2021 11:14pm
Odogster wrote:it seems extremely troll like to hunt down a thread specifically about the merits of di2, then insult the technology, then call the people that use it fools. Extremely unproductive and unneeded posts.
I completely disagree, and even if I end up becoming a di2 fanboy one day, I think experienced Luddites voicing their opposition is a wonderful public service to the community.

Especially for those of us that value simplicity frugality reliability and the ability to make field repairs in primitive locations.

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by Odogster » Aug 12 2021 3:20pm

raylo32 wrote:
Aug 11 2021 5:45am
I don't run anything electronic and am not any sort of fan boy for it. But it is undeniably successful... and will remain so. Sure it is expensive and not "needed". But the world is full of such stuff and full of people willing to pay for it. Comparing the current offerings to mediocre ancient tech like Zap and ridiculous things like bicycle shaft drive is not a history lesson. It is anti-fanboy-ism. This stuff ain't going away. With the demand there is for it now the mfgs will keep improving it and trickle it down to even more lower groupsets. There will always be plenty of mech gear out there, too. Different strokes for different folks. The universe of riders is very diverse and there is and will continue to be something for everyone... from bargain Wally World shoppers to the high end where bikes cost over $10,000. Pedal bikes, I mean.

Exactly! Trolls never know they are trolling, they say history lesson, or my opinion, or opposing viewpoints, but a troll is a troll and they contribute nothing to threads but some negative energy. Eventually they result to name calling but that happened immediately from this one. Willing to bet he has never tried Di2 either.
I love how smooth it shifts, and also the ease with which I can micro adjust the derailleur while riding the bike is incredible. Also the ability to shift multiple gears at once by holding the lever down is very useful. I think mechanical xtr allows for 2 gear shifts at a time while the Di2 variety allows for unlimited. Realistically all one would need to ride a bike is a Shimano Tourney set up but on my bikes I demand better performance than the lower end offers. Is it needed no, wanted yes!

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by john61ct » Aug 12 2021 5:08pm

Sure, and it is very educational for the community to observe disputes among experts.

Which Chalo certainly is that, no cap!

Not at all trolling - do you know what that even means?

just very outspoken and opinionated.

To each their own and viva free speech!

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by Chalo » Aug 13 2021 12:22pm

raylo32 wrote:
Aug 11 2021 5:45am
I don't run anything electronic and am not any sort of fan boy for it. But it is undeniably successful... and will remain so. Sure it is expensive and not "needed". But the world is full of such stuff and full of people willing to pay for it. Comparing the current offerings to mediocre ancient tech like Zap and ridiculous things like bicycle shaft drive is not a history lesson.
Image

I guess your measure of ridiculousness is whether lots of people have bought in or not.

Shimano made, and sold, a whole lot of Positron push-pull shifting systems. And Biopace cranks. And flappy MTB brake lever shifters. And these:
Image

Electronic shifting has been tried before, multiple times, and left behind. It will happen again, and however many credulous consumers have bought Di2 will be out of luck when it's no longer supported, or when the incompatible next generation of gimmickry comes along.

If they're lucky, they'll be such credulous consumers that they don't expect a many-thousand-dollar bike to be usable a handful of years down the road.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by raylo32 » Aug 13 2021 12:43pm

Speaking of epic ridiculousness!! More apples to orange comparisons with failed technologies pretending to be "history lessons". Whether you like Di2 or not, "people buying into them" is the sole measure of what makes this or ANY product viable. Lots of people buy iPhones and Macs. I don't really understand that either but Apple is still one of the biggest companies in the world. Go figure. Good luck with your troll quest.
Chalo wrote:
Aug 13 2021 12:22pm


I guess your measure of ridiculousness is whether lots of people have bought in or not.

Shimano made, and sold, a whole lot of Positron push-pull shifting systems. And Biopace cranks. And flappy MTB brake lever shifters. And these:

Electronic shifting has been tried before, multiple times, and left behind. It will happen again, and however many credulous consumers have bought Di2 will be out of luck when it's no longer supported, or when the incompatible next generation of gimmickry comes along.

If they're lucky, they'll be such credulous consumers that they don't expect a many-thousand-dollar bike to be usable a handful of years down the road.

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by raylo32 » Aug 13 2021 1:39pm

Now this IS undeniably true and will likely come to pass. Unfortunately it is the same with a whole lot of stuff these days. Planned obsolescence, throw away society we are, for better or worse. Mostly worse... If Mr. S is smart they will create enough stock to keep the current versions viable until the latest and greatest is adopted and the old stuff ages out. Sort of like how we can still get plenty of parts even for 6 and 7-speed stuff today.
Chalo wrote:
Aug 13 2021 12:22pm
and however many credulous consumers have bought Di2 will be out of luck when it's no longer supported, or when the incompatible next generation of gimmickry comes along.

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by john61ct » Aug 13 2021 3:27pm

Yes change is inevitable.

Plenty of people value having the latest gear and don't mind spending more per year on their hobby to get it.

Others especially with limited resources look more at pure utility reliability longevity and value for money.

To each their own and vive la différence!

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by Warren » Aug 14 2021 11:50am

I pretty much agree with Chalo on this one. However, thought this might be interesting here.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/nivex-or-etap/

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by Chalo » Aug 15 2021 2:01am

Warren wrote:
Aug 14 2021 11:50am
I pretty much agree with Chalo on this one. However, thought this might be interesting here.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/nivex-or-etap/
I lived with Jan Heine when we were in college.

I think he's ignoring the obviously more functional than Nivex, more practical and futureproof than eTap, far more cost effective than either, options that lie in between.

Microshift Advent is good, modern, cheap, durable, and serviceable. That's an example of decent value, strong performing shift gear you can still buy today. If I had a bike brand, I would spec it.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by john61ct » Aug 15 2021 3:53am

Chalo Bikes

nice ring to it

Could raise capital with prepay deposits or Kickstarter

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by Odogster » Sep 14 2021 7:21pm

Here we go to all the nay sayers, read this article. https://cyclingtips.com/2021/09/shimano ... is-coming/

Once again proves anyone who says electronic shifting is dying, as it explains the exact opposite. Of course most trolls will just deny facts so let's see how this one is explained away!

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by john61ct » Sep 14 2021 10:15pm

What do commuter / shopping bikes in Amsterdam and China use?

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by Chalo » Sep 15 2021 12:33am

john61ct wrote:
Sep 14 2021 10:15pm
What do commuter / shopping bikes in Amsterdam and China use?
Hint:
Not Di2 or eTap.

Places where people use bikes as transportation of first resort tend to be somewhat resistant to polluting their bikes with pointless nonsense. That's the province of consumer-economy wankers.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by Odogster » Sep 16 2021 12:55pm

Nice excerpt from the article

Electronic dominance

No one can deny that mechanical shifting has a sizeable advantage over electronic shifting in terms of serviceability and often weight (particularly at anything other than flagship price points). However, in conversations with countless product managers from various bicycle brands in recent months about consumer preferences, the answer is always the same: when given the option, so few people are actually buying the cable-actuated stuff that it’s impossible to justify keeping it around from a financial point of view.

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by Hillhater » Sep 16 2021 6:04pm

Odogster..
The key phrase there is ..” in conversations with countless product managers from various bicycle brands“...
IE , people employed to upsell the big $$ products they want to sell . !
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by john61ct » Sep 16 2021 6:13pm

What proportion of the overall market do you think are DIYers as opposed to people who just go buy a bike?

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by Chalo » Sep 16 2021 7:33pm

Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo are all chasing today's dollar while they freely give away the future to the likes of Microshift and SunRace. None of their electronic crap will last or stay supported for long, and soon enough it will go out of fashion.

An '80s or '90s bike, if kept indoors, will still be operable and maintainable in fifty years, while today's deciduous BS bikes will be hopeless in ten.

I think we're witnessing the fracture of the bicycle market into a segment of real bikes for transportation, and a segment of useless consumer geegaws for "lifestyle". Guess which one will bite the dust first?
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by raylo32 » Sep 17 2021 7:46am

Lots of true stuff here. I have one bike from the early 90s that is still in service. MTB kept indoors except getting submerged in salt water during a hurricane. That would have killed an electronic group for sure. It killed some of the old mech components but they were cheap and easy to replace.

But I still don't see the electronic stuff going away at the high end. And I say that as someone who has nothing but mech on all my bikes. People are willing to pay for it so the mfgs are gonna sell it to them. Simple as that. The SunRace and Microshift mech stuff looks interesting. I wonder if and hope that they made their cog spacing the same as Shimano/Sram. That would make trying it out a lot easier.

Chalo wrote:
Sep 16 2021 7:33pm
Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo are all chasing today's dollar while they freely give away the future to the likes of Microshift and SunRace. None of their electronic crap will last or stay supported for long, and soon enough it will go out of fashion.

An '80s or '90s bike, if kept indoors, will still be operable and maintainable in fifty years, while today's deciduous BS bikes will be hopeless in ten.

I think we're witnessing the fracture of the bicycle market into a segment of real bikes for transportation, and a segment of useless consumer geegaws for "lifestyle". Guess which one will bite the dust first?

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by john61ct » Sep 17 2021 9:58am


Chalo wrote:I think we're witnessing the fracture of the bicycle market into a segment of real bikes for transportation, and a segment of useless consumer geegaws for "lifestyle". Guess which one will bite the dust first?
In the US the former may never break out of niche status,

Tourist rikshaws, food sellers, delivery peons and greenie commuters will value reliability and longevity

But for OEMs all the money flow might remain in the latter group, as disposable trinkets for the top 20% wealthy only.



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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by john61ct » Sep 17 2021 10:01am

Of course those who see the whole industrial / trade house of cards tumbling down will prep for that by sticking with mechanical

especially given the supply chain of fresh batteries will be one of the most fragile, among the first to disappear like fuel and bottled water.

Back to pedal power only

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Re: Why Shimano Di2 is the perfect complement to a BAC 855 and BBSHD setup

Post by markz » Sep 18 2021 12:18am

:roll:
If that be the case, then many of us won't be riding bicycles anymore.

john61ct wrote:
Sep 17 2021 10:01am
Back to pedal power only

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