Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Balmorhea » Dec 04 2019 10:55pm

nicobie wrote:
Dec 04 2019 4:21pm
While I've never sat in one, it looks like outside visibility is crap.
From the demo ride video I saw, it looks like forward and side visibility is good, and rear visibility is pretty much nonexistent (but furnished on-screen by a rear view camera).

All the better for self-entitled douchebags to run over cyclists and peds and then claim innocence. Maybe they can get image processing software for their rear view camera that digitally removes all the poors.

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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by furcifer » Dec 05 2019 12:12pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Dec 04 2019 2:12pm
the good ole boys will catch on, with proper exposure..

Image

Jeremy McGrath "Doing some testing today in our new Cyber Pro 2, getting it dialed in for the @lucasoiloffroad 2020 season. #jm2 @maxxistires @ivdsuspension @traxxas @rigidindustries @bluemedia480 "
I can't tell which way it's going? :confused:

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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by cricketo » Dec 05 2019 11:20pm

Very cool. Now let's lock this thread down. What's the keyword ? Tesla ?

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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by cricketo » Dec 06 2019 1:42pm

Production schedule got changed to reflect consumer demand - single motor version was pushed to 2022, and triple motor is now 2021 along with dual motor. I've modified my pre-order from dual to triple :mrgreen:

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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Hillhater » Dec 06 2019 7:27pm

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Re: Motertrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by miro13car » Feb 03 2020 5:31pm

[quote=furcifer post_id=1512726 time=1574706457 user_id=62644]
I think there's two important points to remember; gas is a business write off for a lot of truck owners and while towing capacity is important we all know how it kills range on EV's.[/quote]

we must remember that majority of pickup owners do NOT use it for any business.
gasoline is not only expense when you compare fossil vehicle with electric.
oil changes, filters, belts, gaskets, fluids, rusting mufflers, list goes on and on
car dealers charge here Can$150 minimum for labour and would not touch and gasser without charging fee.when you think how insanely fossil car is complicated , like example automatic transmission.
Eplus, Bionx

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Re: Motertrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Hillhater » Feb 03 2020 7:39pm

miro13car wrote:
Feb 03 2020 5:31pm
....
we must remember that majority of pickup owners do NOT use it for any business.
gasoline is not only expense when you compare fossil vehicle with electric.
oil changes, filters, belts, gaskets, fluids, rusting mufflers, list goes on and on
car dealers charge here Can$150 minimum for labour and would not touch and gasser without charging fee.when you think how insanely fossil car is complicated , like example automatic transmission.
The same ill informed, incorrect,myths that you posted on the other thread. :roll:
The most significant cost of any vehicle ownership is depreciation, (or lease charges), usually followed by insurance , and these days Registration, Tolls , parking fees etc, if you drive in a city.
Service charges are 90% labour costs for both ICE and EVs ( which still need regular servicing)
..and its common these days to have the first 3 or even 5 years servicing included with the purchace price !
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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by miro13car » Feb 04 2020 12:06pm

EV versus fossil vehicle expenses over say 5 years.
I didnt write about depreciation, every vehicle looses value over time
but
about MAINTENANCE of EV versus ICE car.
there are not myths there are facts.
do you change oil on EV/
do you change oil filter on EV?
do you replace gaskets because oil leaks on EV?
do you replace timing belt, alternator belt, on EV?
and list goes on and on
no wonder dealerships dont want to sell EV - they make money on service it is common , child knows this.
insane complexity of gasser is a fact not myth.
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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Hillhater » Feb 04 2020 7:02pm

Maintenance...
As i said, many manufacturers offer “capped price “ servicing for the duration of the warranty period ( 3,-5, even 7 years !) for example , Toyota service fees are capped at Au$140 (US$100) per year.
Also its common to be offered “free servicing” when negotiating a new car sale !
EVs also require servicing, ..Tesla were offering 4 year service plans for $3000 , but have recently dropped all service recommendations (? :shock: ) and suggest a “breakdown repair” system for owners. (IE wait until something fails ,.. then pay the tow fees to the repair shop !)
Other EV manufacturers still see the need for “preventative maintenance” and have service plans such as Hyundai at $175 /yr.
Any ICE belt changes, oil leaks, gasket failures, etc etc, would be covered under the warranty or the “sale of good act”. Which protects against unreasonable service life and repair costs..
So dont fool yourself you are saving money on servicing by running an EV.....
AND i remind you again of the hugely complex electrical systems on an EV with the comparatively non existent service support/ repair know how in existing mechanics shops.
Remember also that “built in “ guaranteed failure of the electrical module in Tesla S and Xs that will cost you $3-5000 to get replaced within 5 years of rolling off the delivery truck !
Now , why would you not consider depreciation costs ?
EVs cost roughly double its ICE equivalent (Hyundai Kona EV, $60k ..ICE Kona $24k )
Assuming similar depreciation rates, and likely they both lose 50% value over 5 years, then the EV has lost $30k ( $6k/yr and the ICE model $12k. ($2.4 k/yr).....That is $3600/yrs more to own the EV version !
Still think you are saving on servicing , ?...or even fuel costs ?
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Re: Motertrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by st35326 » Feb 04 2020 10:32pm

CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING wrote:
Nov 28 2019 6:40pm
Yeah, it's all marketing- normal buying public has no idea about it, and focuses on substance and style. Nothing special- every company does that.
This truck is not geared towards the Good Ole' Boys and never was. It's geared towards suburbanite warriors- people who want to be different in some way despite their typical American lifestyle and lawn and cul-de-sac. It's for towing quads and dirtbikes with your two kids and wife.
Oh its not huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIgQin5XyAg

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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by st35326 » Feb 04 2020 10:38pm

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 04 2020 7:02pm
Maintenance...
As i said, many manufacturers offer “capped price “ servicing for the duration of the warranty period ( 3,-5, even 7 years !) for example , Toyota service fees are capped at Au$140 (US$100) per year.
Also its common to be offered “free servicing” when negotiating a new car sale !
EVs also require servicing, ..Tesla were offering 4 year service plans for $3000 , but have recently dropped all service recommendations (? :shock: ) and suggest a “breakdown repair” system for owners. (IE wait until something fails ,.. then pay the tow fees to the repair shop !)
Other EV manufacturers still see the need for “preventative maintenance” and have service plans such as Hyundai at $175 /yr.
Any ICE belt changes, oil leaks, gasket failures, etc etc, would be covered under the warranty or the “sale of good act”. Which protects against unreasonable service life and repair costs..
So dont fool yourself you are saving money on servicing by running an EV.....
AND i remind you again of the hugely complex electrical systems on an EV with the comparatively non existent service support/ repair know how in existing mechanics shops.
Remember also that “built in “ guaranteed failure of the electrical module in Tesla S and Xs that will cost you $3-5000 to get replaced within 5 years of rolling off the delivery truck !
Now , why would you not consider depreciation costs ?
EVs cost roughly double its ICE equivalent (Hyundai Kona EV, $60k ..ICE Kona $24k )
Assuming similar depreciation rates, and likely they both lose 50% value over 5 years, then the EV has lost $30k ( $6k/yr and the ICE model $12k. ($2.4 k/yr).....That is $3600/yrs more to own the EV version !
Still think you are saving on servicing , ?...or even fuel costs ?
Just another misinformed luddite on the verge of extinction. According to this clown all Tesla vehicles are crap, when they are currently the most desirable cars in the world with zero advertising investment, Tesla wasn't even a corporation 10 years ago. Both of my Teslas have been incredibly reliable and cheap, especially since the stock has paid for both, outright.
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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Hillhater » Feb 04 2020 11:13pm

st35326 wrote:
Feb 04 2020 10:38pm
” .
.. According to this clown all Tesla vehicles are crap, ....
It must be difficult living with such limiting reading difficulties !
In future, Maybe try studying the text a little closer before rushing to conclusions and making an arse of yourself.
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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Punx0r » Feb 05 2020 3:25am

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 04 2020 7:02pm
Any ICE belt changes, oil leaks, gasket failures, etc etc, would be covered under the warranty or the “sale of good act”.
I'd love to hear about your experiences claiming for timing belt service changes under warranty???

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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by markz » Feb 05 2020 3:53am

I'd just buy a VW Jetta/Passat TDI diesel and get 45mpg and call it a day.
1.9L with the ALH engine, manual transmission.

I'd do my own oil changes, belt changes, engine work, spinning wrenches, getting the hands dirty.

If I needed a truck ability to the tdi, I'd just buy a trailer. Im sure the care can handle 5000lbs, besides that I dont need truck capability. Except the 1.9L ALH engine would really frocking rock n roll in a Suzuki Sidekick or Jeep Cherokee(XJ) or YJ/TJ

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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Hillhater » Feb 05 2020 6:05am

Punx0r wrote:
Feb 05 2020 3:25am
....
I'd love to hear about your experiences claiming for timing belt service changes under warranty???
OK ...but you are confusing Service recomendations with “Warranty” repairs
“Warranty” is about unexpected failures.. ( and yes, i have had a (broken) timing belt replaced under warranty ! )
1995, 3yr old Escort XR3 . Stripped the belt teeth when starting. Bent valves etc etc...all fixed under warranty.
But a routine timing belt change would be a service item, and covered by the capped price service plan.
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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Punx0r » Feb 05 2020 8:38am

I know the difference, I was just puzzled by your use of phrase "any belt changes" would be covered under warranty.

Why does nobody barrack ICEs for the common and extremely expensive out-of-warranty repairs commonly experienced, such as dual mass flywheels, high pressure diesel direction-injection systems, EGR systems etc. Turbos do not last the life of the engine. The first generation automatic stop-start systems were basically released with the owners acting as beta testers.

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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Hillhater » Feb 05 2020 5:46pm

Punx0r wrote:
Feb 05 2020 8:38am
.....
Why does nobody barrack ICEs for the common and extremely expensive out-of-warranty repairs commonly experienced, such as dual mass flywheels, high pressure diesel direction-injection systems, EGR systems etc. Turbos do not last the life of the engine. The first generation automatic stop-start systems were basically released with the owners acting as beta testers.
... ?? Possibly because they are not as “ commonly experienced” as you like to believe ?? :wink:
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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Ohbse » Feb 05 2020 6:49pm

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 05 2020 5:46pm
Punx0r wrote:
Feb 05 2020 8:38am
.....
Why does nobody barrack ICEs for the common and extremely expensive out-of-warranty repairs commonly experienced, such as dual mass flywheels, high pressure diesel direction-injection systems, EGR systems etc. Turbos do not last the life of the engine. The first generation automatic stop-start systems were basically released with the owners acting as beta testers.
... ?? Possibly because they are not as “ commonly experienced” as you like to believe ?? :wink:
Oh they're common alright. One of the family businesses is a VAG specialist repairer. On a daily basis they see catastrophic failure of all kinds of engine, drivetrain, electrical components on vehicles *just* out of warranty. Rear main oil seal on an Audi Q7 with <60k miles is routine and requires essentially dropping the entire drivetrain using specialist hydraulic lift tables and dozens of labour hours. After years and years of dodging, VAG just announced a widespread recall of Mechatronic units that actuate the DSG gearboxes over a wide range of model years - they split a key component in half and leave you stranded, stuck in a random gear. The 1.4TSI motor commonly used in Golf/Touran etc are notorious for catastrophic failure. They're cost engineered down to such a point that they cannot be reliable long term.

There are dozens of similar issues. Modern ICE vehicles are not more reliable than older models over the long term.

Back on topic - The Cyber truck is sweet. It's designed for 2d manufacturing - the whole truck can be laser cut from sheet stock, folded and welded - done. No stamping, a huge capital cost and inconsistent process. No paint shop, another huge capital expense and massive time sink.

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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING » Feb 05 2020 7:44pm

st35326 wrote:
Feb 04 2020 10:38pm
Just another misinformed luddite on the verge of extinction. According to this clown all Tesla vehicles are crap, when they are currently the most desirable cars in the world with zero advertising investment, Tesla wasn't even a corporation 10 years ago. Both of my Teslas have been incredibly reliable and cheap, especially since the stock has paid for both, outright.
Remember Tesla fans, the more you refer to someone as a dinosaur the more stock options Big daddy Elongated Muskrat gets
Ohbse wrote:
Feb 05 2020 6:49pm
There are dozens of similar issues. Modern ICE vehicles are not more reliable than older models over the long term.
Not to be pedantic- how far back are you talking? Because the change from carburation to fuel injection easily doubled the operational life of most engines thanks to more even burns- junkyards used to be full of old pushrod I6s with burnt 1st and 6th pistons from the old single-barrels. Hell, cars up until the 90s were crazy disposable, and that's not even getting to oil and lubrication improvements.
Ohbse wrote:
Feb 05 2020 6:49pm
Back on topic - The Cyber truck is sweet. It's designed for 2d manufacturing - the whole truck can be laser cut from sheet stock, folded and welded - done. No stamping, a huge capital cost and inconsistent process. No paint shop, another huge capital expense and massive time sink.
Yee! The manufacturing of the CYBERTRUCK is the most exciting thing to me, cause as others pointed out it cuts out some of the biggest costs of vehicle manufacturing- dye stamping and paint, and since wraps are honestly killing cheap MACCO paint jobs it's also giving a nice canvas for a consumer to use.

The other thing I'm excited for- supposedly we're gonna see the Sondors 3-wheel EV soon, and while returning the cut costs to the consumer only occurs in perfect capitalism I wonder how cheap they could make that vehicle? Could you make the dream of a $10,000 car that's still reliable and profitable? And would Tesla ever 'lease' a technology and idea like that to another manufacturer?

Also, you could have anyone put this together. That would be a great question for Elon and his potent Musk- could someone seriously order a CYBERTRUCK on a pallet and lego-build it together?

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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Ohbse » Feb 05 2020 8:27pm

CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING wrote:
Feb 05 2020 7:44pm
Not to be pedantic- how far back are you talking? Because the change from carburation to fuel injection easily doubled the operational life of most engines thanks to more even burns- junkyards used to be full of old pushrod I6s with burnt 1st and 6th pistons from the old single-barrels. Hell, cars up until the 90s were crazy disposable, and that's not even getting to oil and lubrication improvements.
Agreed - I'm primarily talking about the period since the mid 90's to early 00's. The majority of the engineering since has not been about building substantially better vehicles, it's been split between maximising profit often by making worse components or complying with emissions, fuel economy or safety legislation to continue selling vehicles.

As an example, a common move industry wide in 'modern' engines is to go to a low tension piston ring to further reduce frictional losses. While this does work to improve economy, the reason it wasn't done earlier is that it results in unacceptable rates of oil consumption. A VW or Audi under warranty isn't eligible for inspection until you're putting in more than 1 litre of oil per 2000km travelled! I have seen some vehicles whos owners spend 50% of their fuel bill on oil topups and this is considered 'normal'.

Another is the first generation of direct fuel injection. This often results in some dramatic carbon buildup issues on vehicles that are not frequently driven hard, the end result of which is very expensive to resolve and in the medium term actually increases total fuel consumption due to poor combustion.

Other internal components have degraded, even over the course of a model run. Cam chain tensioners moved from teflon lined, aluminium investment cast and post machined to simple fiber refinced plastic. One lasts for a lifetime, one lasts for the warranty period. Hoses use proprietary plastic clips, operating in hot environments they become brittle and are almost guaranteed to break if ever touched.

While oil and lubrication has improved substantially, those same improvements can result in greater sensitivity to neglect or adverse operating conditions.

None of these things apply to EV's!

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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Hillhater » Feb 05 2020 8:39pm

Ohbse wrote:
Feb 05 2020 8:27pm
None of these things apply to EV's!
Maybe not, but EVs have their own specific issues..
https://insideevs.com/news/376037/tesla ... ory-issue/
Tesla transmission replacements..
Front suspension failure
Leaf batteries
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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Ohbse » Feb 05 2020 8:56pm

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 05 2020 8:39pm
Ohbse wrote:
Feb 05 2020 8:27pm
None of these things apply to EV's!
Maybe not, but EVs have their own specific issues..
https://insideevs.com/news/376037/tesla ... ory-issue/
Tesla transmission replacements..
Front suspension failure
Leaf batteries
Transmission or suspension issues are nothing specific to EVs - plenty of brand new vehicles experience high rates of failure due to engineering mis steps. These are usually re-engineered and new parts made available, sometimes at or below cost if the issue is widespread enough.

Nissan made an engineering choice in the pursuit of simplicity and cost reduction to passively cool leaf batteries. That resulted in much faster than expected degradation under specific circumstances on the first generation cells. Subsequent cell chemistries massively reduced the impact of this. A lot of people, even outside of warranty, received brand new revised battery packs. I think this was pretty well handled and the vast majority of those early leafs are still on the roads.

The Tesla flash memory issue is an interesting one. In the US you might be out of luck if the warranty on your early tesla has expired, however this is hardly catastrophic. Your own article has a $399 solution. On a $30-$50k second hand vehicle that's hardly the end of the world.

Honestly I'm not sure what you're arguing here - that EVs are less reliable than ICE? That's very obviously untrue and a pretty difficult road to take, even for you

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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Hillhater » Feb 05 2020 9:46pm

Ohbse wrote:
Feb 05 2020 8:56pm
Honestly I'm not sure what you're arguing here - that EVs are less reliable than ICE? That's very obviously untrue and a pretty difficult road to take, even for you
Im not arguing, just pointing out ..(as you confirmed) ...that there are issues and faults inevitable in any mass produced product.
With cars, some issues are specific to ICEs, some are common, and some are unique to EVs
As i said before, if you are trying to justify an EV on the basis of fewer failures, or lower maintenance costs, you are fooling only yourself.
And that $399 Tesla fix ...is only an option to a few who can ship their dead car to one of those few shops who can fix it.. but to the rest of the world, that is not an option !..Tesla service centre only !
... whilst if my ICE dies on my driveway, there are a dozen local mobile mechanics who can come to my door, run a standard computer diagnostic check, and 9 times from 10, fix it on the spot
Even owners of the most common EV, ..Nissan Leaf,..that has been around for 10 years here and is backed up with a full Nissan dealership network,..they have a hard time getting technical support for problems because few of the Nissan dealers have the training or equipment to service or repair a Leaf.
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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by Ohbse » Feb 05 2020 11:01pm

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 05 2020 9:46pm

Im not arguing, just pointing out ..(as you confirmed) ...that there are issues and faults inevitable in any mass produced product.
With cars, some issues are specific to ICEs, some are common, and some are unique to EVs
As i said before, if you are trying to justify an EV on the basis of fewer failures, or lower maintenance costs, you are fooling only yourself.
And that $399 Tesla fix ...is only an option to a few who can ship their dead car to one of those few shops who can fix it.. but to the rest of the world, that is not an option !..Tesla service centre only !
Uhh, fewer maintenance concerns and related expense is definitely one area where an EV is superior. It is not enough of a difference to justify the substantial cost delta in purchase price, but it's an important factor in TCO over product lifespan.

Purely in quantity of components it's plain that you're likely to experience less failures with an EV, all things being equal. Excluding early adoption headaches (which I would say have largely been resolved at this point from Tesla at least) the drivetrain contains dramatically fewer components. There's less plumbing, lower temperatures in general - these are massively important factors in system reliability. Even electrically, a Tesla model 3 relative to a BMW 3 series is massively simplified! Quantity of independent modules, wiring looms etc are all *less* on the electric car, as un-intuitive as that might be.

The fear mongering that EVs are less serviceable than ICE vehicles is pure BS propaganda perpetuated by an industry that's heavily dependent on service and parts revenue. You might struggle to get support for your leaf from Nissan - but that's because the dealers (which are NOT the manufacturer, despite the logo on the building) have no incentive TO support them. Tesla and any other up and coming EV only companies do not have this obvious conflict of interest.

Like any new automotive technology, independent repairers and specialists will arise wherever demand exists. The technique to repair the faulty flash memory might now be only completed by one or two people in California, but that knowledge and technique is globally applicable - if anybody actually had this problem in sufficient quantity. With mass adoption will come mass support for vehicles beyond warranty - just like everything else that's worth repairing.

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Re: Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

Post by billvon » Feb 05 2020 11:28pm

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 05 2020 9:46pm
Im not arguing, just pointing out ..(as you confirmed) ...that there are issues and faults inevitable in any mass produced product.
Definitely true there. Every product can have problems.
As i said before, if you are trying to justify an EV on the basis of fewer failures, or lower maintenance costs, you are fooling only yourself.
You have never owned an EV, have you. I've owned three - and they have been the most reliable, lowest maintenance vehicles I have ever had.
--bill von

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