C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

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amberwolf   100 GW

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by amberwolf » Feb 05 2020 2:31pm

if wha tyou have is two of these

https://www.ebay.com/itm/48v-1800w-Brus ... 2749.l2649

then the current limit on the controllers, meaning the continuous constant current maximum that they should draw, is 32a each, so 64a or so is the maximum continuous they should draw. they may spike higher at startup from a stop for a moment, but if their limits work like they should, they should settle down to 64a or so regardless of the load on the motors (even if it were such a load like a super steep hill or whatever, that makes the motors slow and stall).

so it has a 100a fuse, meaning if the system draws more than 100a for long enough, the fuse would blow. that's unlikely except in the event of a failure, which is what the fuse is meant for.

it also has "60a breakers" (plural?) doesn't state if those are in series or in parallel or how many there are. if they're in parallel, then you could draw over 120a before they overload and pop. if they're in series, then somewhere over 60a for long enough, and they'll pop.

it's not usually a hard-and-fast limit with breakers. i have an 80a (?) breaker on the sb cruiser trike, and it hasn't ever popped in normal use (just when testing short circuit protection; it does work for that). i've seen peaks in some tests well over 200a for a few seconds, and for a few seconds my normal startup current from a stop is 60-90a depending on cargo load, but my normal continuous current is in the high teens or low 20s, so well below the breaker limit.

yours should be, too, if everything is geared right, unless you're going up enough of a hill or riding against enough air resistance / wind to need full power from both motors.

but as always, it'll require actual testing of the system to find out what really happens. ;)


the battery specs here
https://www.techdirectclub.com/48-volt- ... h-66ah-g2/
are listed as
Nissan Leaf Generation 1 Battery
Weight: 70
Dimensions: 10 L x 14 in W x 10 in H
Chemistry: Lithium-ion
Battery Bank: 7 series
BMS integrated
DC Energy Capacity (100% Useable): 2.8 KWH
DC Nominal Voltage: 48 V
DC Voltage Range: 41 V – 58.8 V
Depending on inverter used.
1000 W – 5000 W inverter recommended.
Maximum Current Discharge: 60 A
Maximum Current Charge: 40 A
Storage Temperature: 0 – 89.6 F (-18 – 32 C)
Operating Temperature: 32 – 122 F (0 – 50 C)
Efficiency: >95% DC – DC depending on application.
Fuse Protection: 100 A rated current per string.
Breakers: 60 amps
Design Life: 5+ years

LED DC Meter display the Voltage of each pack.
Nominal voltage 7.5V per module
Maximum charge Voltage 8.3V per module
End of discharge voltage 5.0V per module
Each cell voltage should be less than 4.15V per cell
Each cell voltage should be more that 2.5V per cell
25 ℃, SOC0-100% charging
25 ℃, SOC0-100% discharging
Connectivity: Anderson SB50
motor/controller specs from the first link
Motor Specification:
Style: striae & Round
Operating voltage: 5V
Adjustment range: Minimum ?1.0V; highest ?4.0V
Function: high, medium and low grades governor
Electric brushless Motor:
Type : Brushless DC Motor
Output Power: 1800W
Voltage : 48V
Speed: 4500rpm
Motor Sproket : T8F 9T

Brushless Controller:

rated voltage: dc 48 v
Current limit : 32A
rated power: 1800w
matching motor: dc brushless motorUnder Voltage Protection: 20V

Wires Interface Definition

Battery :Thick Black (Power Negative) /Thick Red (Power Positive)
Motor :Thick Yellow (Motor Negative) /Thick Blue (Motor Positive)
Ignition Switch :Thin Red(VCC)/Thin Blue
Indicator : Thin red (Indicator power output) /thin black (indicator negative)
Brake :thin yellow (Brake signal)/thin black(Negative Power)
Speed governor :Thin blue(Speed handlebar Signal input) /Thin black (Negtive Power) /thin red(5V Positive Power)
Charge Port : Thin red (charge input power Positive) /thin black (Power negative)
Brake Light: Thin red (power Positive) /thin black (Power negative)

Package Including
1 x start motor
1 X controller box
1x Foot Pedal

1x Ignition Key Switch

1x Wire Harness

1x Forward Reverse Switch

1x T8F chain + rear sprocket

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Just_Ed   100 W

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 05 2020 3:35pm

Thanks amberwolf
You've put me back at ease. I was sure I may have made a mistake by ordering the 'mini pack'.

I agree, it's on to the practical application, and see what the results bring.
So with that in mind I need to work on placement.
It just so happens, that the box that my motors came in, is virtually the size of the mini pack.
The pack is 10 x 14 x 10. The box is 10 x 14 x 12.

So after placing it in the 'desired places, I ended up putting it, where it fits, virtually perfect.
It means longer cables, which I have, so initially no problems are foreseen.
The mini pack weighs in at 70 lbs, so the box is much easier to manhandle.

Image

Placing it in the middle, removes some of the +/- 400 lbs, that will rest on/over the axle.
Better weight distribution, by placing it in the middle.
No worries of it, busting loose, from behind. Only concern I have at this point is ground clearance.
The modules are in a case. But none of the pictures show it with a top or bottom. If not I will have to make one.

Image

And a center console, of a design that compliments the overall design.
It will be more for gauges, because it's too far to reach from the seat.

Image
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 07 2020 12:22am

something you want to verify once you get the controller, is that the power wires actually are reversed like it shows in the picture on their ad:
s-l1600.jpg
VERIFIED
Finally got around to verifying the wiring on the controller. Positive and Negative
I found another picture of their controller, and the wires were marked correctly.

However, I still sent an email requesting clarification, and they responded with an apology,
saying the picture I have is marked backwards.

So thank you amberwolf for bringing that to my, and their attention.

UPDATE: Battery Box Placement

I've decided the battery will go as shown, with the box. I will be cutting a hole in the wood 'firewall/cowl', and sliding the battery forward about 4-5". That will place it about 2-3" from the back of the engine block.

I'll have to a make a cover for the engine side, and a console/cover for the passenger side.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 07 2020 9:28am

The picture of the controller wiring schematic, shows the red positive lead without a ring connector.
So I asked the supplier why.

Image

My question to them;
What is the reason the Positive lead is without a ring connector?

Their answer to me;
It's connected to the air switch in the middle to protect controller in case of current overload

My question here is;
What 'air switch?

The schematic only shows a fuse.
Further more, are they referring to an 'air switch', in the middle of the controller?
If so why still, leave the lead without a ring connector?

And speaking of fuses, the schematic symbol shows what looks like an 8.
So exactly what size fuse should I be putting in?


Image
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fechter   100 GW

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Feb 07 2020 10:30am

"Air switch" is chinese for "circuit breaker".

You could use a fuse or a circuit breaker. This is to protect in case of a controller short.
Try to find the current limit rating for the controller. It should be in the specs somewhere. I'm guessing around 40A.
(edit: I see the rating is 32A)
The fuse or circuit breaker needs to be a higher rating than the expected maximum current draw. If the controller limit is 32A, you could use something like a 40-50A breaker or fuse. I personally like breakers but they are physically larger and more expensive.

In your dual motor setup, you could possibly use a single breaker or fuse for both controllers. Something like a 80A rated one.
Fuses need to be rated for the voltage used. A typical 12v car fuse may start arcing and catch fire if it blows with 50v across it. Circuit breakers made for solar systems are designed for higher voltages and have a mechanism to prevent arcing.

No clue why they didn't put a ring terminal on the positive. I guess they assumed it would be soldered to a fuse holder or not need a ring for the circuit breaker.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 07 2020 10:44am

Thanks fechter

I would never have guessed, it had anything to do with 'language'.

I think I will use an inline fuse, for each motor. I'm thinking that if one goes, for what ever reason,
then maybe the other motor will still get me home. Assuming that will even work?
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Feb 07 2020 12:36pm

Good point. That would work.

There are some nice circuit breakers that aren't too expensive. I'll have to search for an example.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 07 2020 5:24pm

Received the Mini Pack today, but without the promised charger.
Have sent a follow up to the vendor.

A tidy looking package. It looks to fit just behind the firewall/cowling, with no cutting out of anything.
Turned it on, and it registered 57.2 Volts

Image
Image
Image
Image

That fuse is huge. will need to find a holder for it.

Image
Image
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by SlowCo » Feb 07 2020 5:42pm

There is already a 63A breaker (fuse) on the battery pack so what is the thermal 100A fuse for?

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 07 2020 6:44pm

Got my charger...all be it....USED.
I wasn't thinking about the chargers being, a recycled part as well.

I guess it's No Harm, No Foul.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advicea

Post by Hillhater » Feb 07 2020 7:34pm

Im a little puzzeled ?
The label on that battery says..
2.8kWh..
Max current 40 amps..
Max power 2 kW..
..i thought it was sold as 3.5kwh, 60 amps max, 5kW max power ?..
I hope you got what you paid for .
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advicea

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 07 2020 8:27pm

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 07 2020 7:34pm
Im a little puzzeled ?
The label on that battery says..
2.8kWh..
Max current 40 amps..
Max power 2 kW..
..i thought it was sold as 3.5kwh, 60 amps max, 5kW max power ?..
I hope you got what you paid for .
Yeah! Me TOO !
I have already questioned them on the w/battery, 'which wasn't supposed to be',
but they gave me one free, to keep me happy.

I also questioned them on the description title saying it was G2, when the parts description said it was G1.
Both of these 'typo', errors have since been corrected.

So will this be the 3rd, 'typo error' ?

Nissan Leaf Generation 2 Battery
Weight: 70
Dimensions: 10 L x 14 in W x 10 in H
Chemistry: Lithium-ion
Battery Bank: 7 series
BMS integrated
DC Energy Capacity (100% Useable): 2.8 KWH (2.8 KWH is stated for the 36 volt pack)
DC Nominal Voltage: 48 V
DC Voltage Range: 41 V – 58.8 V
Depending on inverter used.
1000 W – 5000 W inverter recommended.
Maximum Current Discharge: 60 A
Maximum Current Charge: 40 A
Storage Temperature: 0 – 89.6 F (-18 – 32 C)
Operating Temperature: 32 – 122 F (0 – 50 C)
Efficiency: >95% DC – DC depending on application.
Fuse Protection: 100 A rated current per string.
Breakers: 60 amps
Design Life: 5+ years
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fechter   100 GW

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Feb 07 2020 8:50pm

That pack will work fine. Not sure why it has a fuse but the breaker is good.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 07 2020 8:54pm

fechter wrote:
Feb 07 2020 8:50pm
That pack will work fine. Not sure why it has a fuse but the breaker is good.
So I needn't worry about putting the fuse in?
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Feb 07 2020 10:26pm

Just_Ed wrote:
Feb 07 2020 8:54pm
So I needn't worry about putting the fuse in?
I wouldn't worry about it but it wouldn't hurt either. With a single main fuse, like you say if one controller shorts, it will drop power to both. Controller shorts are pretty rare unless you are modding them for more than the stock current.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 08 2020 12:31pm

Now that I've received both the battery pack and the charger, I'm wondering ...how to use/care them.
What do all the pretty lights mean.

What I'm disappointed in, is there is no literature with either one.
No user manual, no warnings, no cautions, no how to's, no do's, no don't do's, etc.
I'm flying virtually blind. Not a comfortable feeling.

I've spent a considerable time searching the internet for anything regarding either one.
Not much readily available.
TechDirect, just said the only thing they have, is what is on the web page for each item. (Not much help)

So the saga, and request for help shall continue, as I approach the time to actually hook up everything.
But for now, it will just be working on getting the battery installed in the frame.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 08 2020 8:42pm

Great day to work outside. 72 degrees (F) very little wind.

Cut out the 1 x 1 for the battery supports.

Fits like it was made for it.
Image
Image

The battery will sit 2", below the frame. 3" total.
Supports are only tack welded at this point.

Image

A little notching required so the battery will fit.

Image

Got to make a couple of 1/8" spacers (orange lines), to narrow the supports to where the battery box bolt holes are.

Image
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 08 2020 8:51pm

I asked TechDirect the following question.

Another question if I may. What is the difference between the advertised 3.5 kwh and
:DC Energy Capacity (100% Usable): 2.8 KWH ( I know it's 0.7 kwh).
What does the difference mean to my application?

Their answer

The usable capacity left of the battery is 70%

Don't know if 0.7 kwh is that significant, but I don't think their answer, answers the question. :confused:
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by amberwolf » Feb 08 2020 10:11pm

no, it doesn't.

if they meant that the *original* capacity was the 3.5kwh and that there's only 70% of that left in these cells, well, that would be 2.45kwh, not 2.8kwh.


so it sounds like you're dealing with a typical chinese battery company (regardless of where they say they are located--that could just be a "sales office"), that doesn't actually know anything about what they 1sell. most likely they just buy stuff from someone else (who themselves may not make it either, and just buy it elsewhere).


if they advertised a battery with a certain amount of capacity, and certain cell version, and that's what you bought, but then what you actually received is a lesser battery / different cell version, then you should probably take it up with them (or your credit card company if the seller won't help).



regarding care for the battery...mostly you just don't want it to get too hot (depends on the battery; you can look up specs for the leaf cells of whichever generation they are), or too cold (freezing). if it has a bms to keep from overdischarging and overcharging, then you don't have to worry about that. if the bms also balances the cells, then that's taken care of, too. otherwise you'll want to keep an eye on those things.

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Feb 08 2020 10:44pm

I still think it will be a great battery for this application. If you want cells with "new" capacity, they will cost a lot more.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 08 2020 11:49pm

amberwolf wrote:
Feb 08 2020 10:11pm

so it sounds like you're dealing with a typical chinese battery company (regardless of where they say they are located--that could just be a "sales office"), that doesn't actually know anything about what they 1sell. most likely they just buy stuff from someone else (who themselves may not make it either, and just buy it elsewhere).
Thanks amberwolf, this set being G2, they are sold with 70% capacity.
I think I'm going to be OK.

I don't really know that much about this company. They seem to be more than a re-seller.

I happened upon this YouTube quite awhile back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlCz40bCZZM

It led me to think maybe they would be OK. And they were offering the ready made 'Mini Packs', where other sellers weren't. And their prices seemed better.

I have what I have, and unless I'm convinced, I have batteries that just won't work, then I'm not going to take up issue with them. Especially, since they agreed to give me a $125.00 charger for nothing, which they didn't really have to do.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 08 2020 11:51pm

fechter wrote:
Feb 08 2020 10:44pm
I still think it will be a great battery for this application. If you want cells with "new" capacity, they will cost a lot more.
Thanks fechter, I think I'll be Ok. I'm going to stay with what I have, and see what happens.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Hillhater » Feb 09 2020 12:29am

Of Course the battery will work, but i would still be concerned with that 60amp max (or is it 40 ?) discharge rating ..and the 60 amp CB.
The cells should be easily capable of much more than that
That 60amps effectively will limit your total max power to less than 3000W..at the battery,.... so probably 2500W from the motors ! :?
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by SlowCo » Feb 09 2020 4:23am

It seems that battery pack is sold as a "portable energy storage unit". And it looks like there is only a single in/out connector for the power. Probably because it is meant as an electrical buffer in a total system. So the max. 40A current on the sticker and the 63A built in circuit breaker are there as a safeguard for the charging current, I think. That is well under 1C charging current so seems logical. To use the potential of this battery pack in an EV there should be a separate charge port (max. 40A, but <20A preferred) and discharge port (120A or even higher). Or replace the built in circuit breaker for a higher rated one or thermal fuse (the 100A in one of the photo's).
Just make sure that your charging current is low enough and that the built in BMS is capable of more discharge current!

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 09 2020 10:02am

SlowCo wrote:
Feb 09 2020 4:23am
It seems that battery pack is sold as a "portable energy storage unit". And it looks like there is only a single in/out connector for the power. Probably because it is meant as an electrical buffer in a total system. So the max. 40A current on the sticker and the 63A built in circuit breaker are there as a safeguard for the charging current, I think. That is well under 1C charging current so seems logical. To use the potential of this battery pack in an EV there should be a separate charge port (max. 40A, but <20A preferred) and discharge port (120A or even higher). Or replace the built in circuit breaker for a higher rated one or thermal fuse (the 100A in one of the photo's).
Just make sure that your charging current is low enough and that the built in BMS is capable of more discharge current!
FWIW....This is the charger they sell with the battery pack.

http://www.cnczone.ru/forums/index.php? ... t&id=10282
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