C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

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Just_Ed   100 W

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 09 2020 10:49am

I think I have figured out why they get 2.8kwh and we get 2.45kwh.

Maybe, it depends on where the calculator is made. :lol:
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by SlowCo » Feb 09 2020 11:39am

Just_Ed wrote:
Feb 09 2020 10:02am
FWIW....This is the charger they sell with the battery pack.

http://www.cnczone.ru/forums/index.php? ... t&id=10282
It looks like it is a rectifier and NOT a CC/CV charger so DON'T charge your battery pack FULLY with it! It seems to keep outputting a constant current of 30A and not switch over to constant voltage (@low current) towards the end of the charge cycle.

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by SlowCo » Feb 09 2020 12:04pm

Again: don't charge your pack with that 30A rectifier without monitoring the voltage of the pack. Preferably the voltage of each cell.

If they sold you that rectifier as a charger and not included detailed instructions or a manual I wonder if there is even a BMS (Battery Management System) in the battery pack....

Hopefully someone with more knowledge and experience about chargers and electrics will step in and help you.
Because I think it would be wise to carefully open this pack and examine what is in there and how it is wired. If it are just a bunch of cells with a circuit breaker wired together without a BMS it isn't a battery pack suitable for non experienced users to put in an EV.

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 09 2020 4:33pm

Some more info

I was curious to see what was behind those black covers.
Maybe there is something there, that is useful to somebody.

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by SlowCo » Feb 09 2020 4:52pm

Batt pack.jpg
Batt pack.jpg (454.83 KiB) Viewed 1223 times
BMS.jpg
BMS.jpg (186.6 KiB) Viewed 1223 times
Fortunately they did use a BMS. It seems it's rated for 60A hopefully (!) continuous with a higher peak amperage. So that is a relief. Just use it as is and if the circuit breaker trips when accelerating you could bypass the breaker for the discharge amps with a separate port including a higher rated breaker/fuse.

But the biggest problem now is charging the pack safely. The power supply you linked to is NOT a charger with a CC/CV function! Or I'm missing something. But as mentioned earlier I'm not an expert so I hope Amberwolf or someone else really knowledgeable will chime in on this.

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 09 2020 11:01pm

Some more for the learning curve.

This is all new to me, so I'm still looking for information,
that will not only inform, but what I can learn from.

White Paper - CCCV chargers: a false sense of security

http://liionbms.com/php/wp_cccv_charging.php

Battery Management Systems

http://liionbms.com/php/about_bms.php

Also found a User Manual, for the charger/rectifier.

Got it through "Find Any Manual". Cost me a whopping .95 USD. Its coming from England, supposedly through email.
However, it hasn't arrived yet. They confirmed taking my money, and the status? ...well it's still processing.
They said it could take up to 24 hours before I get it. It's the first time I've ordered literature over the internet,
and I didn't get it nearly instantly. I spent a lot of 'cents', so it had better get here, post haste !
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 10 2020 8:48am

Up early this morning @ 4 am...couldn't sleep.
Still no Rectifier manual..sent follow up email.

Anyway
Thinking about how was I going to mount my two motors, led me to look up how differentials work.
Not that I'm planning on using one at this stage, just wanted a better understanding.

Question I had, using the two motor method I intend to use.
If both motors are driving the same, (one driving each wheel), how are they affected while going around tight turns?
Is there a change in draw, electrically, due to one wheel going faster/slower than the other?
Is there strain exerted on the motors in any way?
Would it be better to connect both motors to one axle, i.e. the right or left?

Does it even matter with this type application?
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Feb 10 2020 9:03am

The ad for the "charger" stated constant current. If the battery guys sell it as a charger for that pack, I would have to assume they tested it. It may be overkill size wise, but seems like it should work. Seems no different than using a Meanwell power supply to charge a battery, which I do all the time. If it has a way to lower the current, it may be good to lower it a bit to reduce heating.

Driving a single wheel will result in a heavy steering pull during acceleration. While you could get used to it, it's far from ideal. It could be dangerous in some situations. If using a single motor, I would highly recommend using a differential like the ones on a pedicab.

With dual motors, when doing a tight turn, the inside wheel will have a higher loading and be doing most of the work. The current limit in the controller will keep it happy. It will act like an electronic differential with limited slip.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 10 2020 9:17am

fechter wrote:
Feb 10 2020 9:03am

With dual motors, when doing a tight turn, the inside wheel will have a higher loading and be doing most of the work. The current limit in the controller will keep it happy. It will act like an electronic differential with limited slip.
So I guess it's still plan A. Two motors, two wheel drive.
Thought maybe I could fit one of the motors, with an on/off switch.
The idea is that if the terrain allows for it, then one motor could be shut off, if not needed.

Example: On one of the local parade routes, the road is down hill, at maybe 3% downgrade.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Feb 10 2020 2:39pm

There would be very little change in total power consumption between two motors vs. one motor if running at light load. Maybe around 5W.

Also....
Just to be sure, are your motors brushed or brushless? The controllers you showed are brushless and won't work with a brushed motor.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 10 2020 3:09pm

fechter wrote:
Feb 10 2020 2:39pm
There would be very little change in total power consumption between two motors vs. one motor if running at light load. Maybe around 5W.

Also....
Just to be sure, are your motors brushed or brushless? The controllers you showed are brushless and won't work with a brushed motor.
OK, good to know. They are brushless
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by amberwolf » Feb 10 2020 9:57pm

yeah, there's not really any need to shut off one of them at any point, unless there is a problem with it.

both the controllers for my rear wheel motors on teh sb cruiser trike are always on, controlled together by one throttle (or the pedals).

at one time i used independent throttles for each motor, and going around corners can be done more sharply that way if i let off the throttle on the inside wheel and increase throttle on the outside wheel (kinda like "tank steering"), but it works fine even if I don't.

what you can do if you want a very simple version of this style of operation but only one throttle controlling both, is to install two normally-closed switches, one each wired in series with the throttle signal lines of each of the controllers. the switches would be placed physically in the steering mechanism such that when going straight or nearly so, both controllers are connected to the throttle. when turning sharply enough (you'd need to determine what that is, for you), the switch on the inboard side for that turn direction cuts off the throttle to that controller. as you straighten out, it resumes throttle to that controller.

this *should* work normally, but there is a chance that your controllers will "fault" when the throttle is disconnected like that, and require power cycling. if this is a problem, then it will require a slightly more complicated circuit that i'd have to work out. ;)

but before you bother with any of this, try it out as-is first, as it will probably work just fine for you.


fwiw, the eventual plan for the sb cruiser, assuming i stick with dual rear hubmotors, is to create an analog control operated by gearing or something on the steering that "divides" (not really but that's shorter and much simpler than a full explanation) the throttle signal between the two controllers whenever i'm turning, to give proportionally more power on the outboard wheel, and less on teh inboard, the sharper the turn is. but i haven't devised this yet. :oops:

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 11 2020 1:07am

amberwolf wrote:
Feb 10 2020 9:57pm

but before you bother with any of this, try it out as-is first, as it will probably work just fine for you.
You know what I got out of your post...'best leave it alone for now. :confused: :roll: :)
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by amberwolf » Feb 11 2020 2:27am

well, with most things i talk about, i ramble on about all the possibilities...but most of the time, things work well enough as they are for most people, and modifying things like i like to do always has the chance of making something not work, or not work as well as it did before, or simply end up not being enough different to have been worth the extra work, hassle, and/or expense. :lol: :oops:

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Feb 11 2020 9:03am

amberwolf wrote:
Feb 10 2020 9:57pm
fwiw, the eventual plan for the sb cruiser, assuming i stick with dual rear hubmotors, is to create an analog control operated by gearing or something on the steering that "divides" (not really but that's shorter and much simpler than a full explanation) the throttle signal between the two controllers whenever i'm turning, to give proportionally more power on the outboard wheel, and less on teh inboard, the sharper the turn is. but i haven't devised this yet. :oops:
That can definitely be done. There are some simple ways to do it or you could build a circuit that does it very precisely. But as you say it probably works fine without it and not worth the extra complexity and additional failure points.

A crude way to do it would be to have the throttle signal go to the wiper on a pot and the outer legs going to each controller. Then make a mechanical linkage between the pot and steering so the pot is midway going straight. It may take slightly more than 5v on the throttle power to allow full speed going straight. As you turn, one side gets less throttle, the other side gets more.

A similar crude approach would be to have two pots, perhaps linear sliders that only reduce throttle on the inside wheel without increasing the outside wheel and gives full signal to both going straight.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 11 2020 5:15pm

Just_Ed wrote:
Feb 09 2020 11:01pm
Some more for the learning curve.

Also found a User Manual, for the charger/rectifier.

Got it through "Find Any Manual". Cost me a whopping .95 USD. Its coming from England, supposedly through email.
However, it hasn't arrived yet. They confirmed taking my money, and the status? ...well it's still processing.
They said it could take up to 24 hours before I get it. It's the first time I've ordered literature over the internet,
and I didn't get it nearly instantly. I spent a lot of 'cents', so it had better get here, post haste !
Well not so much. The website said they had the manual. And from the sample they showed it looked promising. So thought I had found it. NOT TO BE !

Long story short, I found a good Corporate website, and I contacted them. They also had to 'search' for what I was wanting. Finally they sent me this.

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&i ... isp=inline
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Feb 11 2020 10:26pm

Let me try my search-fu:
DELTA MCS-1800 series.pdf
(2.54 MiB) Downloaded 35 times
This is some kind of rack mounted power bank unit that uses 4 of the smaller chargers. Some information applies.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 12 2020 12:22am

fechter wrote:
Feb 11 2020 10:26pm
Let me try my search-fu:

DELTA MCS-1800 series.pdf

This is some kind of rack mounted power bank unit that uses 4 of the smaller chargers. Some information applies.
Thanks fechter. I bypassed this one, because I didn't think it matched my particular Mod #. But, after reading through, it does seem to have information, that could be used. I will have to learn more, to be sure however.

Thanks again for taking the time to do some searching.

My initial main concern was the LED's, CL, FLO, RFA, I +, I - indicators, and what they were, (or were not) telling me.
So I'm better educated, at this point.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 12 2020 8:54pm

Drive Motors Update

The 11 tooth (weld on) sprocket has a 3/8" hole, so a little metal whittling. I'm using my last two 3/4" bore pillow blocks.
Once everything is mocked up, then the welding starts.
The 24 tooth sprocket will be a slide on, with a shaft collar to hold it in place.
Will need to file a flat spot for that set screw as well. Maybe drill a hole with bolt would be stronger.

Image
Image
Image

First look at the jackshaft. I'm taking advantage of the axle mounts.
I think it will be a clean and effective way of doing it.

Image

Sprocket sizes are; Motor 9T...jackshaft input 24T, output 11T...Rear axle 54T

Image
Image

This setup leaves room either in the middle, or on the outside for brake rotors.
Spent part of the morning looking for dual hydraulic brake kits.
Haven't decided whether to leave the motors toward the rear, or bring them forward to just behind the seat front.

Image
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 13 2020 10:48am

ESR 48V/30D manual search update

Well so far I've received, or found on my own, three different 'publications',
that give tons of technical data, that I will probably never use.

The one linked below, is from ' FindAnyManual.com'. To those here that are savvy to this kind of information,
it surely means something. But to a layman as myself, it's of little use.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1M_NMaO ... sp=sharing

I sent a copy I received directly from Delta Electronics, to TechDirect, (you remember them right?),
the people I bought the rectifier from!
TechDirect sent back something, 'they found'. However there was trouble in sending/receiving it.
Still waiting for their second attempt at sending it to me. So I'm not sure which version it may be.

Bottom line is I have at least found, what the different features, functions and LED's are for, and the adjust ability of said components. However, at this point, there is no information stating, (when or why), the adjustments should be made.
My only reasoning is to test and adjust to within the stated parameters. ( see pg 10-19 in link below)

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&i ... isp=inline
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Feb 13 2020 2:56pm

That looks good.
There are really only two adjustments to worry about. The voltage you adjust for the level of charge you want. 58.8v is the maximum. Most people charge to a lower level to increase battery life at the expense of a little range. I’d recommend around 57.4v.
The other adjustment is the current limit. I’d set that one about as low as it goes. Lower current reduces stress on the parts and the battery at the expense of longer charge time.

The drive train is looking good. A single set screw on a sprocket will have a tendency to get loose over time. Two set screws at 90 degrees works much better. A through bolt is also good. Use loctite between the shaft and sprocket.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 13 2020 8:26pm

OMG !! :shock: What have I done ?

Image

Sooo many pieces...where do they all go ?

Image
I've torn it all apart, and I have no 'manual' to tell me how to put it back together, OH! Woe is me....what to do?:cry:
I know, :idea: I'll go get Manuel, from down the street.
He'll know how to put it back together. Maybe not the same, but together :)
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Hillhater » Feb 13 2020 9:32pm

Hi Ed,..looking very impressive !
I know you are obviously a skilled and experienced engineer/designer/fabricator, so dont take these comments as anything other than friendly thought from an idle pair of hands. :wink:
Just a couple of thoughts to keep your mind ticking over between “tool time”
1) motor to axle drive train...i see no freewheels or sprags ?
With that reduction ratio, is it going to be hard work moving her manually without power. ?
2). That 3/4 axle ??...once you split it, i just wonder how much axle/chassis flex may interfere with those chain lines ?..since you are rolling with no suspension.
The only similar situation i can think of is race go karts, where they moved from 1” axles , up through 30 mm, 40mm, and even 50 mm, hollow toughened, axles to avoid axle flex and chain problems.
Anyway ,..in your situation, i guess you can afford to try it first, and change it later if there are any issues !
....more power to your welder ! :bigthumb:
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 13 2020 10:00pm

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 13 2020 9:32pm
Hi Ed,..looking very impressive !
I know you are obviously a skilled :lol: and experienced engineer/ :lol: designer :lol: /fabricator :lol: , so dont take these comments as anything other than friendly thought from an idle pair of hands. :wink:
Just a couple of thoughts to keep your mind ticking over between “tool time”
1) motor to axle drive train...i see no freewheels or sprags ? Hmmm, good point sir. The addtion of freewheels, will affect using reverse, I think.
With that reduction ratio, is it going to be hard work moving her manually without power. ? No, I'll have my wife pushing while I steer....JUST KIDDING :)
2). That 3/4 axle ??...once you split it, i just wonder how much axle/chassis flex may interfere with those chain lines ?..since you are rolling with no suspension.I just split the axle today. At less than 25 mph, and on relatively smooth-ish paved roads, I'm not really anticipating any problems. BUT road testing will surely tell us more.
The only similar situation i can think of is race go karts, where they moved from 1” axles , up through 30 mm, 40mm, and even 50 mm, hollow toughened, axles to avoid axle flex and chain problems. I guess I need to watch out for pot holes.
Anyway ,..in your situation, i guess you can afford to try it first, and change it later if there are any issues !
....more power to your welder ! :bigthumb:
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 14 2020 12:50am

On a more serious note. I am none of those things. If I was, I would be 'giving' advice not asking for it.
I am mechanically inclined, (not electrically inclined) and can figure out most ( how to's), dealing with design and fabrication, though it be on a semiskilled amateur, level.
You know, like putting a round peg, in a round hole, square peg in a square hole.

Enough about me; lets get back to building something.

The first jack shaft is finished. I wonder about the smaller 11T sprocket end, and how strong it will be.
It's the same 3/8" diameter as the motor shaft, which is only 9T.
With two motors carrying the torque load, maybe it will be OK.
If not, it's back to the 'design' board. :)

Got to clean off the weld spatter.
Image
Image

Had some time to work on the 54T sprocket. Getting it ready for the 3/4" axle.
The three bolt holes/bolts worked out real well, in maintaining center.

Image

Just three tack welds, at the moment. Just to hold it together, for fit checks.

Image

After removing the axle and pillow blocks, I found the pivoting motion, to be rather stiff. Not as I remember them when new. I was going to use my grease gun, but found it to was 'out of grease'.
So I set about removing each bearing, greasing them and reinserting them back.

Image

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 13 2020 9:32pm
[ That 3/4 axle ??...once you split it, i just wonder how much axle/chassis flex may interfere with those chain lines ?..since you are rolling with no suspension.
The design of the frame, and the attached body, in my mind, will provide adequate stiffness, to the frame. Using frame design, such as you see on trike, and other recumbent's, one might be more concerned about flexing. There is little to no bracing above the base frame on a lot of the designs.

My yet to be completed, Inferno trike build, has some flexing.
There's no top structure, (body/bracing) to help minimize flexing.
All I learn doing this quad build, might flow over into, motorizing my trike. Hmmmm, I like that idea....next project.
Image

As I look into how I will attach the motors, and what bracing will be needed, I have thought about flexing. So at this point, you are right to be thinking about the ramifications. Road test, Road test, Road test.
Last edited by Just_Ed on Feb 14 2020 10:48am, edited 1 time in total.
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