C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
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Just_Ed   1 kW

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 23 2021 9:03am

Bling for the StreetRunner.

Took some time away from working on the drive train.
Got some bodywork completed and this bit of bling.
DSCN5128.JPG
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I used the eagle from my old flag pole. Mounted it to a bronze/copper cup I have, (from who knows where)
I used JB Weld to hold the eagle in place as well as the attaching stud.
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Today it's back to working on strengthening the drive train components. My trial run with additional power yesterday revealed a slipping wheel hub on the axle.

My temp fix isn't strong enough to handle the torque these motors have.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Sep 23 2021 10:59am

Reminds me of the Budweiser eagle
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Yes, those motors can produce a lot of torque. Design for what it takes to make the wheels skid on pavement.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 23 2021 12:43pm

That is a nice looking logo

Just came in from working on the slipping hub problem.
Turns out it's no big thing, whew!

The tack welds broke loose. So put a final weld on the broken one and repeated on the other hub.
Did an (on jacks) test run, forward/reverse, and all ran A-OK.

Update on the charger issue. Received my replacement charger yesterday. Still didn't get any information about using it though. So I'm still flying in the dark about whether I caused the other charger to die or not.

Also noticed that the other charger had a max charge capability of 58 +/- volts.
This replacement charger is rated at only 54+/- volts.

Not sure if that is of any significance or not.
I envy you guys that know and comprehend electrical.
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ZeroEm   10 MW

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 24 2021 7:25am

Not with standing shorting out. Don't think you did anything wrong. We are always looking for what last. Make sure it does not get to hot. Later you may want to buy a charger that is adjustable on the Volts and amps.

Still waiting on my charger to quit. Good thing is I have two. Need to upgrade myself in the next year or two.
by Just_Ed » Sep 23 2021 12:43pm

That is a nice looking logo

Just came in from working on the slipping hub problem.
Turns out it's no big thing, whew!

The tack welds broke loose. So put a final weld on the broken one and repeated on the other hub.
Did an (on jacks) test run, forward/reverse, and all ran A-OK.

Update on the charger issue. Received my replacement charger yesterday. Still didn't get any information about using it though. So I'm still flying in the dark about whether I caused the other charger to die or not.

Also noticed that the other charger had a max charge capability of 58 +/- volts.
This replacement charger is rated at only 54+/- volts.

Not sure if that is of any significance or not.
I envy you guys that know and comprehend electrical.
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Just_Ed   1 kW

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 24 2021 8:29am

ZeroEm wrote:
Sep 24 2021 7:25am
Not with standing shorting out. Don't think you did anything wrong. We are always looking for what last. Make sure it does not get to hot. Later you may want to buy a charger that is adjustable on the Volts and amps.

Still waiting on my charger to quit. Good thing is I have two. Need to upgrade myself in the next year or two.
The concern for me is using a battery technology that is different from your run-of-the-mill dry/wet cell battery.
At $750 a pop, I'm a little paranoid about ruining it. Knowledge is comfort and it has been like pulling teeth to get it from the people that are putting these battery packages together.
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ZeroEm   10 MW

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 24 2021 8:57am

That upsets everyone, trying to get specs from the sellers. That is why a adjustable charger is good. Learn the battery chemistry then you can adjust the charger to it.

I worry myself, have a battery tender for my car. It's an EV and put a deep cycle AGM (Optima Yellow Top) and worry about the float charge. Only a maintaining charge every few months and more often in winter. Have electric heat and it bypasses the 12V so it does not get the charge it does when running the AC.

A good charger should last. Big batteries work chargers and they get warm.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 24 2021 9:12am

My battery pack is made up with 7 Nissan Leaf cells and comes with a BMS.

I 'assume' that means the charger should be 'plug-n-play' so to speak.

I have absolutely no information about when to charge, time on charge, voltage monitoring, do's or don'ts etc.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 24 2021 10:05am

I have a 2013 Nissan Leaf. :shock:
Following the specs laid out would treat them like most do here for lithium-ion.

1. Store them around 40% - 60% charge or SOC. Checked them monthly, best to make sure they don't go out of balance at the cell level or group.
I would stick to 4.05V per cell for a normal charge. Then before a long ride you could charge it to 4.2V before riding. Then make sure you run it down to 70% or lower before leaving it sit for longer periods. Need to look back to find how many you have in series to get a Voltage number.


Charging
Every cell should not go over 4.2V during the charging in any case. The battery should be charged CCCV to 4.2V. In many cases it is recommended limiting the charging to 4.1 - 4.15V, (especially if not using BMS).

The charging current should not go over 120A. High current charging shortens the battery life. Nissan also does not recommend for everyday use. The normal charging is 15-20A - 3-4h or 1/3C.

Using a BMS during charging is strongly recommended. It is a must to protect the batteries from overcharging and to do the balancing. An intelligent BMS will protect also from overcharging at low temperatures.

CELL SPECIFICATIONS

Cell type Laminate type
Cathode material LiMn2O4 with LiNiO2
Anode material Graphite
Rated capacity (0.3C) 33.1 Ah
Average voltage 3.8 V
Length 11.417" (290 mm)
Width 8.504" (216 mm)
Thickness 0.2795" (7.1mm)
Weight 1.7624 lbs (799 g)
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fechter   100 GW

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Sep 24 2021 10:14am

You can measure the voltage coming out of the charger.

If your pack is 14s, then 4.2v/cell = 58.8v. This is the absolute maximum voltage you should use.
4.05v/cell works out to 56.7v.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 24 2021 10:59am

Thx flechter, just wanted to give him a general guide to cut thru all the numbers.
Your top charging numbers are as flechter states. If you have a voltage meter you can watch it as it charges. I turn my trike on and watch the CA3. If your charger tries to go above 58.8v I would try to adjust the charger down to 58.8v max.

Then the bottom numbers (cut off) are as important as the top. Most consider 3v (some cells 2.5v) as empty 14x3 = 42v. Some, like me want to cut off early 3.3v 14x3.3v = 46.2 to prolong battery life. If you don't need to range you can charge between these numbers or if you need the distance charge higher and discharge lower.

58.8v max charge
56.7v normal recommended charge
<-------> long life
46.2v normal recommended discharge
42v max discharge

Another this is top 10% does not hold 10% it is much less so you do not gain that much by charging to 100%. The same as the bottom.
As you use your battery and learn it you will find some areas the voltage does not drop as fast as others.

I don't charge my battery until it will not make the next ride without discharging to far. Nothing to do with your battery, I can look at my voltage and do a quick guess at how far I can go. Mine is about 10 miles per Volt. Its not exact but close enough for me.

Hope this helps.
y fechter » Sep 24 2021 10:14am

You can measure the voltage coming out of the charger.

If your pack is 14s, then 4.2v/cell = 58.8v. This is the absolute maximum voltage you should use.
4.05v/cell works out to 56.7v.
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Just_Ed   1 kW

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 24 2021 11:46am

FYI, when the other charger sparked, popped, and died the cord was quite hot. More so than one would normally think it should be.

The battery voltage didn't drop more than +/- 1.5 volts over the last 18 months just sitting idle in the car.

I suppose the easiest way to check the battery voltage is to shut off the charger and turn on the battery which will show its charge. My main lack of understanding is, can this type of battery be (ON) while it is being charged? It was in that mode when the charger died.

Being unfamiliar with BMS use, I am thinking the BMS is there to protect and monitor the charging process...????

My battery pack and charger
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The new charger default is rated at 54+/- volts
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ZeroEm   10 MW

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 24 2021 3:27pm

My charger recommended that it be turned on before plugging into the battery. This is to avoid the battery "current" charging the charger (CAPS) to fast. This also cuts down on the spark as the voltage is closer to the same.

I charge my batteries with the eTrike turned on. It should not make a difference. People solar charge batteries while driving down the road. I know when my battery is charging it is showing me 0.4v to 0.6v more than it will settle (10mins) at when stopping the charge.

Most BMS do not monitor the charging. They do are supposed to cut off power if above >4.2v Mine will cut off the top at 4.205v. That is two high for me so I need to turn down the charger and not let the BMS stop it. They should stop the battery discharging below <3v. Most BMS's will not balance until the battery is at +/- 4.2v.

BMS are a safety feature would not depend on them to stop charging or discharging. Your battery should not lose energy/Voltage while sitting. Some do when the cells go bad or weak and BMS some will drain one cell group that it draws it's power from.

I have two 24ah batteries and swap them after a bit. The one not in use sets in my room as the temperature is good (high 70's F in summer). I do not mess with it or charge it in my house. It so far never needs charging while storing but I still check the voltage. Not as often as I should. I talk a better story than practice.

Sorry for using cell voltage all the time helps keep me straight. Just multiply them by 14 for your battery. Personal run 20s so I would multiply by 20.

Others may differ in battery care and hope some will chime in to answer any questions to get used to this type of chemistry. I started with my Car (EV) and now don't worry. These are much better than Lead Acid by far.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 24 2021 3:39pm

Thanks ZeroEm

The more info I get the more relaxed I get.

I'd better not get to much information. It might put me asleep :lol:
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 24 2021 4:33pm

:lol: Want you relaxed. All batteries can be dangerous. Have any questions ask, i'm still learning too. I like out put out what I think I know and have people correct me. Better than thinking wrong.

Looks like you ended up with more power than you planned. I like more power don't need to use it all the time but nice not to max everything out it last longer.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 24 2021 4:49pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Sep 24 2021 4:33pm
:lol: Want you relaxed. All batteries can be dangerous. Have any questions ask, i'm still learning too. I like out put out what I think I know and have people correct me. Better than thinking wrong.

Looks like you ended up with more power than you planned. I like more power don't need to use it all the time but nice not to max everything out it last longer.
This website is my go-to source for help and advice. It has served me well, and I let others know that as well.
I needed to have enough to power the two 48 volt motors and get me home again. :)

I am, so far, pleased with the power of the two motors. It does look like I can get by with just one. BUT!, that may be asking too much for one motor over a long distance. I don't want to be embarrassed in the middle of a parade routing having to push.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 24 2021 5:00pm

I agree two is better and running dual takes the load off of the one and increases the speed and efficiency of two.

Started out with plans on a dual setup. Have the controllers and batteries. Gave my front motor away to my brother. Switched from an upright bike to a recumbent trike and one is all I have need.

You have plenty of room on a small bike its an issue to get it all mounted. Next project will be a longer bike with more room. Maybe two motors. 8)
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 24 2021 5:16pm

I'm using two motors because if you recall this project started out to be quad recumbent. A combo between a Street Fox and DeltaRunner found over on https://www.atomiczombie.com/plans/.
Hence the name...StreetRunner

I'm estimating from the last time I weighed things that I'm in the 300 pound range if not more. So power was planned for after the project morphed into what you see now.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Sep 24 2021 11:28pm

Having twice as much power as you need is always fun. Also good for going up hills.

Since your charger has a big 58 written on it I would guess that’s the voltage. That’s pretty close to optimal.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 25 2021 12:05am

fechter wrote:
Sep 24 2021 11:28pm
Having twice as much power as you need is always fun. Also good for going up hills.

Since your charger has a big 58 written on it I would guess that’s the voltage. That’s pretty close to optimal.
I have a hill that is about 4-5 % grade running beside my house. That will be one of my first test runs.
The 58 Volt is the old charger. The new one is marked 54 volts. Still OK I guess.

I downloaded a GPS speedometer app to my wife's iPhone. Hope to try it out tomorrow.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 25 2021 10:53am

Here's a bit of gee-whiz info for you.

Wanted to know how heavy this beast is getting.
I set the car on 2x4 blocks under each tire. This being the same depth as our bathroom scale.
Then one by one and multiple tries of each corner I settled on the weights below.

It needs to go on a diet. I thought it would get up to about 500 lbs.
I'm glad I chose to use two motors.

In lbs.

The rear different weights are due to the steering and master cylinders are on that side.
The steering mainly is heavy.

LR = 211
RR = 186

Haven't figured out why the difference in the front.

LF = 72
RF = 89 ( don't know why)

Total 558 lbs. (253 kilos)

It zips right along despite the weight. Which includes another 450 lbs +/- for passengers.

450 + 558 = a heafty 1008 lbs.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 25 2021 11:16am

Weight does not bother on flat ground, wind/speed does. Getting it moving takes extra, pulling hills are the killer. Then stopping and going down hills, need regen or good brakes. Finish then you can see if you want to lighten it.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by nicobie » Sep 25 2021 4:15pm

The difference in wheel weights are probably due to your frame. Unless it was built on a dead flat table, the frame will apply the weight differently to each wheel. In setting a car up to race a specific track, we would change the spring rate around until we got each wheel weight on the scales where we wanted it to be.

Also we used special calibrated scales. Regular scales can differ by a lot.
Ask for it by name.

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 25 2021 5:31pm

Just wondering Circle track?
y nicobie » Sep 25 2021 4:15pm

The difference in wheel weights are probably due to your frame. Unless it was built on a dead flat table, the frame will apply the weight differently to each wheel. In setting a car up to race a specific track, we would change the spring rate around until we got each wheel weight on the scales where we wanted it to be.

Also we used special calibrated scales. Regular scales can differ by a lot.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by nicobie » Sep 25 2021 8:22pm

Those guys do the same. We only did a couple years of TQs. To expensive to be competitive. We mostly did buggy short course and desert stuff. It's been a few years.
Ask for it by name.

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 25 2021 9:18pm

JACKPOT!

Went to the local swap meet today. It was packed with vendors. Went last week looking for air line fittings, with no luck. This week I hit the jackpot.

Got 12 brass fittings for $10. A good price compared to the big box stores.
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Using some scrap PVC and hose, I used three fittings to make a prototype manifold to mount to the firewall.
There will be three hoses on each side. (Using my proprietary designed carburetors)

Still waiting for the red hose that I ordered last Sunday.
Still haven't got a ship date or tracking number. This time I used ebay, so I'm sure I'll get my money back if this turns sour.
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Don't want to install the fittings into the 'carbs' until I get the hose....just in case.
When the final hoses are installed and to keep things tidy, I will make a hose separator for each side.

Also made a rough mockup for the windshield. Haven't decided on thickness yet.
I have a 1/4" thick piece but it is scratched too much to use.

The upper 'glass' is in the A/C mode 😄
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