eCars - Compared! - 2017 update

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
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DrkAngel   10 GW

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eCars - Compared! - 2017 update

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 15 2010 11:27am

I thought it too difficult to compare the ecars, so I collected the bare facts and compiled them for easy comparison.

Many are "Hybrids", meaning they have a gas engine also. MPG comparison is based solely on electric from batteries. KWH is based on $.10 per kwh.

m/kwh - Miles Per Kilowatt hour

eMPG - electric cost, to gas cost, per mile comparison, (based on gas @ $3/gallon)

---------------------------------
1000w Air Conditioner
or ... 1000w Heater

168kwh per week
720kwh per month

---------------------------------

Why the air conditioner stats?
In order to demonstrate how little increased electric demand will be required by converting to electric vehicles.
For example: The BMW Mini E, can be fully charged 20+ times and driven more than 3000 miles, (coast to coast!), with the electricity used, in 1 month, by a small size, window, air conditioner, or small 1000w heater!

Some claim that the electrical grid and electrical production will require major upgrading, to accommodate electric cars.

Actually, electrical production is reduced by about 50%, every night.
Electric companies even offer 1/2 price electricity for these "off peak" hours.
If every car was replaced by electric, and timed to be charged in these "off peak" hours, the total grid usage would still be less than the daytime usage!

Yes, these timers are readily available, some ecars even have the function "built-in."

Vehicle ..... Battery ** kwh
Range ...... *** miles
** m/kwh ..... *** eMPG


Image
BMW Mini E .. 35 kWh lithium ion. Air cooled.
Range: .....156 miles
4.6 m/kwh ..... 138 eMPG
"OFF Peak" charging = 276 eMPG

Image
Chevy Volt ... 16 kWh (plus 1.4L gas engine).
Electric range: .40 miles.
2.5 m/kwh ...... 75 eMPG
"OFF Peak" charging = 150 eMPG

Image
Coda Sedan .. 34 kWh
Range:....... 90-120 miles.
3.5 m/kwh .... 105 eMPG
"OFF Peak" charging = 210 eMPG

Image
Fisker Karma ..... 22.6 kWh
Electric range: ..50 miles.
2.2 m/kwh ..... ... 66 eMPG
"OFF Peak" charging = 132 eMPG

Image
Ford Focus EV .. 23 kWh. Lithium ion tri-metal cells
Range: ........75 miles
3.3 m/kwh ....... 99 eMPG
"OFF Peak" charging = 198 eMPG

Image
Mitsubishi iMiEV .. 16 kWh
Range: .........80 miles
5 m/kwh ........ 150 eMPG
"OFF Peak" charging = 300 eMPG

Image
Nissan LEAF . 24 kWh
Range: ........100 miles (city driving).
4.2 m/kwh ...... 126 eMPG
"OFF Peak" charging = 252 eMPG

Image
Smart Fortwo ED . 16.5 kWh lithium ion
Range: ........... 85 miles
5.15 m/kwh ...... 154.5 eMPG
"OFF Peak" charging = 309 eMPG

Image
Tesla Model S . 42 kWh standard (larger premium batteries optional)
Range:......... 160 miles base model (230-300 miles with premium pakcs).
3.8 m/kwh ........ 114 eMPG (capable of 80% recharge in 45 min.)
"OFF Peak" charging = 228 eMPG

Image
Tesla Roadster . 56 kWh lithium cobalt.
Range: ......... 220 miles (combined city/highway)
3.9 m/kwh ...... 117 eMPG
"OFF Peak" charging = 234 eMPG

Image
Think City . 24.5 kWh lithium ion batteries
Range: ....... 160 kilometers (about 99.4 miles)
4 m/kwh ........ 120 eMPG
"OFF Peak" charging = 240 eMPG

Image
Volvo Electric C30 24 kWh
Range: ........ .. 150 kilometers (about 93.2 miles)
3.9 m/kwh ............. 117 eMPG
"OFF Peak" charging = 234 eMPG

Image
Ford Focus ..... 23 kWh
Range: ........ .. 100 miles
4.3 m/kwh ............. 129 eMPG
"OFF Peak" charging = 258 eMPG

More info on these cars at: http://gigaom.com/cleantech/battle-of-t ... rge-times/

The Hybrids tend to have much lower efficiency due to having to drag around a gas motor, drive train, gas tank etc.

Please note: using electric heater - air conditioner will decrease mileage noticeably!

While eMPG is impressive, in most areas, a "smart meter" can be installed. When charged at night during "off peak" hours, electricity can be as low as 1/2 the cost. Which would effectively double the eMPG, effectively giving, some of the ecars, in excess of 300 eMPG!!!
Last edited by DrkAngel on Dec 11 2016 9:49am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by el_walto » Dec 15 2010 1:25pm

Wow, electric cars suck. That's some crappy efficiency, and it doesn't even include the price of replacing the batteries.

Electric cars are obviously not the way of the future, mass public transit and lighter vehicles like ebikes make way more sense.

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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by grindz145 » Dec 15 2010 1:41pm

el_walto wrote:Wow, electric cars suck. That's some crappy efficiency, and it doesn't even include the price of replacing the batteries.

Electric cars are obviously not the way of the future, mass public transit and lighter vehicles like ebikes make way more sense.
Correction: all cars suck... I'm with you but good luck selling that... :mrgreen: Electric cars are still BETTER than gas cars.

p.s. great breakdown of everything on the market!

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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 15 2010 2:09pm

el_walto wrote:Wow, electric cars suck. That's some crappy efficiency, and it doesn't even include the price of replacing the batteries. ...
? Fuel, dollar for dollar, electric cars are between 500% and 1000% more efficient than gas cars! ???
Most eCar batteries are designed to last 100,000+ miles, some are guaranteed for 90,000 miles.
Last edited by DrkAngel on Dec 15 2010 4:02pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by Jeremy Harris » Dec 15 2010 3:47pm

DrkAngel wrote:Most eCar batteries are designed to last 100,000+ miles, some are guaranteed for 90,000 miles.
Frankly I'll believe this when I see it. One thing that all electric cars have suffered from, and still do, is poor battery life, either cyclic, or more importantly, calendar. Hybrids manage to eke around 150,000 miles from their batteries by only using around 40 to 50% of their capacity and using a chemistry with a very long potential life span, but any EV that's using current technology lithium cells is going to have to live with their modest calendar life.

The cycle life of good lithium chemistry cells, such as LiFePO4, is OK for maybe 1,000 to 2,000 cycles of hard use, which supports the argument that they will last for 100,000 miles plus. However, most EVs have a range, and recharge time, that means that they are going to be best suited to short commuter journeys, rather than being driven long distances each day. This means that the annual average mileage of an EV will still be quite modest, perhaps around 5,000 to 10,000 miles. Given that all current lithium chemistry cells start to lose capacity from ageing from the day that they are made, and have a useful life of maybe 5 to 10 years at the very best, most will probably struggle to reach 100,000 miles before the cells die from old age.

We've still got a way to go before we have everyday EVs that will run for 100,000 miles or so on their original battery pack, I think, more's the pity.

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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 15 2010 4:22pm

The major range limiting factor, with electric cars, is the cost of the batteries. You could double the range, for the weight of 2 passengers! (And $10,000).

Things will get better!
Reasonably informed sources predict a 10% price decrease, per year, for Lithium based batteries, combined with a 70% increase in capacity, over the next 10 years, based on currently available technology.

Mass production will drive the price down. (I predict!)
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by vanilla ice » Dec 15 2010 4:34pm

Am I alone in thinking its great the modern packs die of old age.. that is the way it should be! If use-limits meant that they cycled out before they died a natural death that would suck!!! Getting 50 to 75k miles out of a pack is good enough for drivers doing 10k a year IMO, by replacement time you can put something cheaper/better in.

I agree with walto on the weight thing. We need Keicars and more two wheelers. Unfortunately the day I see even one scooter is a rare day! We need to ease up on the regs so keicars are legal. Neighborhood vehicles are too damn slow. EV's are great and all, but the widespread use of lighter and more efficient gas vehicles would help out too.

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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by Hillhater » Dec 15 2010 5:57pm

I am assuming you picked the data from manufacturers sites ?
Personally, i suspect the "range" numbers are unrealistic at best, and likely a absolute maximum possible at the most efficient speed...(slow ! :wink: )
IE, in the same way that a professional economy driver can get 90mpg from a ICE Peugeot !
http://wot.motortrend.com/6249242/misce ... index.html
"Normal" driving range on these current generation Ecars is yet to be confirmed by independent testing.
I assume you saw what happened with the Tesla when it was driven round the Top Gear test track ... = 55 mile range ?
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 15 2010 8:41pm

Primarily, the post is comparing ecars against each other.
The "range" ratings are, most all, from the manufacturers.

More info, at the link I listed, it also has additional info about actual mileage, charging times etc.
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by Hillhater » Dec 15 2010 9:48pm

Strange site that ! ... a mixture of manufacturers "estimates" , and owner feed back.
Note:.. Few owners of new cars are likely to be unbiased with their views.

Classic comment on the Mitsubishi ..
Range: 80 miles (half that if the heater’s used).
:shock:
.. so the heater uses as much power as the main drive ??
god help anyone needing to drive on a hot night using the A/C and the lights !! :(
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 15 2010 11:27pm

Main drive might use 15,000 watts,
Headlights might use 70 watts,
AC might use 500 - 1000 watts,
Heater might use 500 - 1000 watts.
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by Hillhater » Dec 15 2010 11:36pm

Main drive might use 15,000 watts,
Heater might use 500 - 1000 watts.
so why would they suggest that it would half the range ?

Oddly, i had previously assumed they would use waste heat from the drive motor & controller for the cabin heater.
1000w represents only 7% of that 15Kw drive.
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by neptronix » Dec 16 2010 2:53am

Hillhater wrote:
Main drive might use 15,000 watts,
Heater might use 500 - 1000 watts.
so why would they suggest that it would half the range ?

Oddly, i had previously assumed they would use waste heat from the drive motor & controller for the cabin heater.
1000w represents only 7% of that 15Kw drive.
Remember that waste heat in an electric motor is a fraction of what an ICE puts out. On an ICE, 80%+ of the burned fuel turns into waste heat. At low power, electric motors & controllers will basically just keep themselves warm and nothing more.

The powertrain could potentially produce enough waste heat to heat up the batteries, but the passenger compartment... no way!

As for this 15kw number, remember that a typical electric motor for a car is in the 60-300kw range. The Nissan Leaf can produce 80kw ( 106hp ) of power, for example.
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by Hillhater » Dec 16 2010 5:34am

Granted an ICE has more than enough waste heat to keep your toes warm, but few electric motors are more than 90% eff, with most of the losses being heat.
10% of 80 Kw is still a lot of heat that could be captured and put to use if needed.
Obviously someone doesnt think it is worth the effort, and much easier to simply slap in another battery powered heater.
...which in Mitsubishi's case manages to half the available range !! :roll:
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by Jeremy Harris » Dec 16 2010 6:12am

neptronix wrote: As for this 15kw number, remember that a typical electric motor for a car is in the 60-300kw range. The Nissan Leaf can produce 80kw ( 106hp ) of power, for example.
15kW is probably more average power than a lot of ordinary cars use, I think I worked out once that mine averages out at around 12 to 14kW, even though it's well over 100kW maximum.

You can easily work back and find the average power used for any ICE powered car, just by looking at the brake specific fuel consumption of the engine and the miles per gallon at any particular speed. Typically, most fairly economic small to medium sized cars use an average power in the 10 to 20kW range, even though they have engines with a peak power that might be 5 or 10 times that.

It's why hybrid drive works well for cars but not for boats or aircraft. Cars have a high peak power to average power ratio, making it economic to use an electric motor to augment a relatively low power ICE "sustain" motor. Boats and aircraft tend to have peak power to average power ratios of around 1.5 to 1, making this a less attractive option.

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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by www.recumbents.com » Dec 16 2010 12:01pm

That's a great list, thanks for compiling it. One of the largest issue I see with e-cars right now is availability. Can you add two things to your list?

1) When the vehicle will be available for sale
2) Where the vehicle will be available for sale

Right now almost all of these are restricted to the left and right coasts of the USA, with a gaping availability hole in the middle.

-Warren.

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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by Jeremy Harris » Dec 16 2010 3:42pm

www.recumbents.com wrote:Right now almost all of these are restricted to the left and right coasts of the USA, with a gaping availability hole in the middle.

-Warren.
Not to mention all the other countries in the World....................

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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 16 2010 11:37pm

Coming at ya!

The Top 14 Electric Cars from the Paris Motor Show

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/al ... motor-show

Lots of exotic lookin' cars, but a few basic transport.
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 17 2010 6:01pm

10 Cars That Will Define the Electric Market-By Being First

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/al ... ev-roundup

Contains info on expected availability, price, etc.
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 22 2010 10:22am

2010 Models!
The Consumer Guide to 2010 Electric Cars
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks. ... guide1.htm
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 29 2010 5:46am

28 eCars ... with anticipated price and availability.


http://www.plugincars.com/cars

Article has nice links to pictures, comments and more!
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 29 2010 6:15am

Porsche 918 Spyder plug-in hybrid concept gets 78 mpg, hits 62 mph in 3.2 seconds

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/01/pors ... hits-62-m/
Porsche918.jpg
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by Hillhater » Dec 30 2010 8:13pm

.. Very nice , however there are a few grey areas ( apart from the availability and price )..
...the concept can theoretically reach 62 mph in 3.2 seconds and nip 198 mph on the high end.
....On the flip side, Porsche says it can also achieve 78 miles per gallon and emit just 70 grams of CO2 per kilometer.
.... and the car can reportedly last up to 16 miles on electrons alone.
If they ever make one to sell, i doubt it will be under $1m.
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Re: eCars - Compared!

Post by DrkAngel » Jan 01 2011 6:50pm

Top 10 Electric Car Makers for 2010 and 2011

http://www.cleanfleetreport.com/clean-f ... cars-2010/

Electric Cars Lead New Models in 2011

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Ele ... 27444.html
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Oil stranglehold!

Post by DrkAngel » Jan 07 2011 4:21am

Gasoline prices have increased 15-20% in the last year, (US).

Forecasters, with the best records estimate the price to rise between 15-35% this year!

Others, fear as high as an 85% increase, based on a recovering economy. They predict that any increase of economic growth will force up the price of oil, which will force down the economic growth!

Oil dependency, looks to have a stranglehold on the throat of the world!
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