Electric vehicles, poor performance, high cost, vaporware

I've found that I have become a fan of electric vehicles, but it seems like the majority of what is available either has poor performance, really high cost or is complete vaporware. Seems like so many companies/people/inventors have ideas, build prototypes, find out the cost is way above what people are willing to pay and watch their idea dispensary into thin air. Lets not forget all the liars, schemers and fraudsters in this field as well. I think they do the most harm to EVs and any real breakthroughs.

The most realistic EV seems to be ebikes because of their light weight and possible high performance. The drawbacks are laws regulating them out of usefulness (at least in most parts of the US), price of batteries and general perception that bikes are not a method of transport. Let's not forget how easy and common it is for bikes to get stolen (which stops me from using my bike in the ways I would like to (I've had 3 bikes stolen from me in my life, none of them even close to the cost of my ebikes). The other issue is perception of cost. Everyone who sees or rides my bikes think they are awesome and want one... until they find out what I spent to build them. If they can work out the math they quickly find out that if they can ride it 50% of the time to work the $2000 bike usually pays for itself in less than 2 years, but that kind of math is beyond the normal lay person. Just look at this site and people into building EVs. We are not normal. We have several people on here who have great mechanical and electrical ability which is rare to find in the general population.

When it comes to electric cars everyone has range anxiety even though lots of people only drive in a very small range. This is a way of thinking that is very hard to break, especially in the US where lots of people commute 30+ miles one way to work on highways where EVs don't do so well. The other big issue is manufacturers features and safety requirements driving the cost and weight of cars way up. I only know a handful of people that would buy a new car that didn't have power everything, heated/cooled everything, 17.8 airbags and navigation and a factory crap 400W stereo.

Guess this thread is just a rant to those who already understand most of these issues. :|

I totally feel ya there. There is some bullshittery in the ebike world but not too much ( yeah sure, your 10ah battery goes 40 miles on 36v.... ) compared to every other form of transport.

When it comes to cars, it is quite frustrating. I have been watching the electric car world intently since 2006 and all we've gotten out of it is a Leaf and Volt, both well out of the price range of the average person.

The battery price needs to drop badly. Or the cost of oil needs to skyrocket again.

One of the biggest killers is government regulation! Startups go for certification to only then realize they have to undergo 30-40 crash test each costing one to two million. It's a rigged game for and by the big ICE car companies.

Lessss said:

One of the biggest killers is government regulation! Startups go for certification to only then realize they have to undergo 30-40 crash test each costing one to two million. It's a rigged game for and by the big ICE car companies.

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Yes, this is one of the biggest set backs to coming up with a new vehicle, the game is rigged.

zombiess said:

The other big issue is manufacturers features and safety requirements driving the cost and weight of cars way up. I only know a handful of people that would buy a new car that didn't have power everything, heated/cooled everything, 17.8 airbags and navigation and a factory crap 400W stereo.

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I hope I'm on your list.

I like my car amenities as follows:

1 working crank-actuated window on drivers side.
Defrost/heater ability in winter.

Things I remove from a car if it happens to have them when I get it, and this is for street cars, not track cars, which get completely stripped:

AC
Power Steering
Power brakes
ABS/TCS systems
Radio
All safety things that are heavy or not suited towards handling a racetrack (such as airbags, crash beams/braces, etc)

zombiess said:

... and a factory crap 400W stereo. :|

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Heck, 400 watts would propel an ebike along rather nicely, at least on the flat anyway. Sometimes I think vehicles are expertly designed to burn as much fuel as posible.

+1 on the electric bikes thing.

Luke - you race cars right? How much would a car that can do say, a 1:40 around Laguna Seca cost? $90k? $120k?

Cause a CBR1000RR can probably do it for $16k.

Bikes are a more economical way to enjoy the most insane power to weight going. So if you are going to electrify any vehicle for speed, bikes make the most sense.

Heh Heh, you'd keep the AC if you were older, and lived in the mojave or sonoran. I tend to agree, people say they want a cheaper car, but oh, not with a 1200 cc engine, no AC, no power windows and locks. Oh no, I want a 3000cc that gets 60 mpg, while weighing 4000 pounds. Sheesh.

Combine that vehicle type with lead batteries, and you bet you gonna have range anxiety.

Then there's the issue of the cost of driving a car. People are simply in la la land about what it's costing. They fret about the cost of gas? even at $100 a pop for a 20 gal fillup, your purchase, financing, maintenance, and insurance costs are very likely to be costing you 5 times the cost of your gas, even at $4.00 a gallon. Tell people that it's costing them $15-20 bucks a day to drive to work and they simple refuse to believe it. Drive further than 30 miles a day and it's even worse.

Unfortunately, though the battery tech is already good enough, the cost is not down quite enough to make E cars attractive to those that want economy. You bet better batteries will be nice, but just getting the cost of 2c lifepo4 down to $3000 for a 50 mile range car would be a big game changer. With a low enough cost, you simply make the pack nice and big so 2c is plenty.

Right now today though, if you like riding out in the weather, the Ebike rules the EV world for utility, efficiency, low carbon footprint, and low cost per mile. I like to think about it that I get paid minimum wage to ride my Ebike. Not lots of money, but paid to ride to work all the same. I don't notice it so much now that my bills are back in controll. But when I started ebiking, I had so much debt that that an extra 15 bucks a day for riding felt like a lot of money into my wallet at the time.

It's far from a perfect solution to ebike to work. Riding 15 miles one way takes some time, it's dangerous if you are careless, and breakdowns happen. The weather matters. But the flip side is great health if you at least faux pedal for 60 min a day. I just did a cardiac stress test, and the nurses said I took a reallllly long time to get my pulse rate fast enough to do the test. Too good of shape, they had me race walking up 12% grade and I was talking to them while I did it. My heart and veins are perfect at 54.

dogman said:

Unfortunately, though the battery tech is already good enough, the cost is not down quite enough to make E cars attractive to those that want economy. You bet better batteries will be nice, but just getting the cost of 2c lifepo4 down to $3000 for a 50 mile range car would be a big game changer. With a low enough cost, you simply make the pack nice and big so 2c is plenty.

Right now today though, if you like riding out in the weather, the Ebike rules the EV world for utility, efficiency, low carbon footprint, and low cost per mile. I like to think about it that I get paid minimum wage to ride my Ebike. Not lots of money, but paid to ride to work all the same. I don't notice it so much now that my bills are back in controll. But when I started ebiking, I had so much debt that that an extra 15 bucks a day for riding felt like a lot of money into my wallet at the time.

It's far from a perfect solution to ebike to work. Riding 15 miles one way takes some time, it's dangerous if you are careless, and breakdowns happen. The weather matters. But the flip side is great health if you at least faux pedal for 60 min a day. I just did a cardiac stress test, and the nurses said I took a reallllly long time to get my pulse rate fast enough to do the test. Too good of shape, they had me race walking up 12% grade and I was talking to them while I did it. My heart and veins are perfect at 54.

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You just made some really excellent point, espcecially about getting the cost of batteries down on just a single tech such as lifepo. As for saving money by ebiking, it surprises me how much I have left in my wallet at the end of the week and how long a tank of e85 lasts me even though my car only gets 10mpg avg on it (I average 19mph due total city driving). A 15 gallons lasts me an average of 14 days. Sometimes longer if I ebike more.

[youtube]4vJE929qyug[/youtube]

This is perhaps a game-changer.

Pros: Cheap €6,500 euro for the entry level model, carries two people, apparently handles well, ideally sized for the urban environment, has some weather protection (much better than jupes), 80 kph speed is perfect for urban travel and holds some luggage. Most importantly of all it goes on sale this December.

Cons: Needs proper doors. Range is somewhat limited at 100 kilometres. The biggest downside is that you are renting the batteries at €45 to €50 per month.

I have seen one already and I think they will be highly popular but the renting issue and doors that leave the top of your body exposed to the elements is not good.

The model in the video and the version I saw doesn't/didn't have the half-doors.

That video brings me to another huge gripe. Why the F do manufacturers feel the need to style all economy and electric vehicles to look so damn weird? Just make it look normal instead of some freak show that draws way too much attention and ridicule.

zombiess said:

That video brings me to another huge gripe. Why the F do manufacturers feel the need to style all economy and electric vehicles to look so damn weird? Just make it look normal instead of some freak show that draws way too much attention and ridicule.

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+1.

I know that a small car is not a wonderful canvas to work with, but so often they get the design wrong.
I can think of a handful of small cars that look good. Most of them are old Hondas, BMWs, and VWs.. that's about it..

We're just waiting for batteries to become cheap enough. In the meantime ebikes and etrikes rule.

I like the looks of the car and would definitely drive it. I get aggravated that all "economy" cars look the same these days. I would absolutely drive that Renault. Of course there's not a chance in hell they will ever sell it in the states.

John in CR said:

We're just waiting for batteries to become cheap enough. In the meantime ebikes and etrikes rule.

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Rule? If you mean maybe 1 out of every 50,000 people in the US have one, that's not very good. I'm using the US because we consume more oil than anyone else. I'm up to date on lots of stuff and I had never even heard of an ebike until December 2010. When I first heard of them I started doing research and initially laughed at them because I saw how pathetic they were. But the hot rodder in me made me keep searching until I found this forum and fast ebikes, that' got my interest going.

By "rule" I mean ebikes are the best vehicle on the planet. I couldn't care less about how popular they are, and being our little secret is fine for now. In fact, in some ways it's going to suck when there are lots of them. I love only having to share the spaces between cars with a spattering of motorcycles. Ebike congestion is going to suck.

One good reason why i think no Nation has adopted EV's as a primary

come on really they are cheap enough now, you can have a car configured to your needs, battery pack size of car ect for a good price....
but
It would change industries, everything the world If 50 % of the population changed to electric cars in the next 5 years, can you imagine how much things would change for people
Normal mechanics/mining ect.. would be out of the job or alot less people, i just think the way the things are atm people think it would cost to much.
its gonna have to be a economic catch up with technology and trends in a way





Its all about money.
and that's all it is.

I don't like riding my ebike and smelling car fumes,
Id rather everyone be electric and leave it up to the power company's to filter or create clean energy solutions.
at least the pollution would be localized somewhere else as well.

zombiess said:

That video brings me to another huge gripe. Why the F do manufacturers feel the need to style all economy and electric vehicles to look so damn weird? Just make it look normal instead of some freak show that draws way too much attention and ridicule.

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+2
There would be lot more acceptance if EVs didn't look like stream lined vaginas

Ebikes and or small electric mopeds win for the cost per mile. So they rule the EV world for now. At the moment, there are millions of em, just not in the US. Get the cost per mile of larger EV's down by lowering the battery cost to less than replacing an engine in a car and you will see cars rule the EV world. Most will go for AC and a roof every time we can afford it.

Right now owners of volts, priuses, leafs, and such are not the average income guy. As long as it's a luxury to have a large EV they won't rule over the gas stuff.

dogman ahead of the game again, it is not just that the scale is more financially accessable to larger number of commuters, but PARKING is the deal. i am really big on the idea of people building EV charging spots at their own locations to keep it outa guvment hands to prevent it from being ruined as a technology.

but parking is big for people who would commute into major urban areas, which all are now considering access tax during the day. i can see parking for two wheels and if they were electric, the parking would include the cable. as it is scaled up having attendant to facilitate charge options in the parking lot would also be the key part of security, so as a financial package the developer could go to the city and say this is my business plan if you will do your part to facilitate two wheel commuting with EV being elmoto or ebike or trike. for geezers and straight people, this is a more palatable option and when we can finally get the price of gas to $10 it becomes more reasonable, and the city will allow parking and city access preferentially, and this is important for people who spend the money to build stuff. on this scale. i can even see them owning and leasing out the elmoto, since your credit works if you work downtown.

Batteries are still the issue.

Price out a 30kwh pack and check the weight. Now realize that a 30kwh pack has a usable-capacity that's equivalent to just 1 gallon of E85.

The Leaf doesn't even carry the equivalent of 1 gallon of E85; it's like 5kwh shy. :lol:

REdiculous said:

Batteries are still the issue.

Price out a 30kwh pack and check the weight. Now realize that a 30kwh pack has a usable-capacity that's equivalent to just 1 gallon of E85.

The Leaf doesn't even carry the equivalent of 1 gallon of E85; it's 5kwh shy. :lol:

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That reasoning is fine in theory but in reality the efficiencies of the electric and the inefficiencies of the internal combustion engine mean that the disparity is not as great as you make out.

Out of the 33KW, only 6.6KW is obtained from a gallon from an average 20 per cent fuel efficient engine. Whereas an electric motor is 80 per cent efficient. Therefore 27kw are obtained.

That means the equivalent 33kWbattery pack holds four gallons.

Three and a half US gallons is the proper comparison for your 30KW pack not less than a gallon. Still not good enough but nowhere near as poor as you were presenting it.

Joseph C. said:

REdiculous said:

Batteries are still the issue.

Price out a 30kwh pack and check the weight. Now realize that a 30kwh pack has a usable-capacity that's equivalent to just 1 gallon of E85.

The Leaf doesn't even carry the equivalent of 1 gallon of E85; it's 5kwh shy. :lol:

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That reasoning is fine in theory but in reality the efficiencies of the electric and the inefficiencies of the internal combustion engine mean that the disparity is not as great as you make out.

Out of the 33KW, only 6.6KW is obtained from a gallon from an average 20 per cent fuel efficient engine. Whereas an electric motor is 80 per cent efficient. Therefore 27kw are obtained.

That means the equivalent 33kWbattery pack holds four gallons.

Three and a half US gallons is the proper comparison for your 30KW pack not less than a gallon. Still not good enough but nowhere near as poor as you were presenting it.

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Nope....

24.03kwh is good for 82,000 BTUs and one gallon of E85 is also good for 82,000 BTUs. I don't think the .03 is that significant, so I round to 24kwh to keep it simple.

If you put 3.5 gallons of E85 into a car that gets 24mpg (on E85) then it can go about 84 miles. If you put 30kwh through the Leaf it should go 88 miles (based on its 34kwh/100mi rating). They shouldn't be that close if they started with the same amount of fuel - the Leaf should go a lot farther...

Same cars, but this time we'll even it up and use 1 gallon of E85 in the gas car and 24kwh through the Leaf, which results in 24 miles versus 70 miles. Now you see the Leaf's efficiency - it went a lot farther than the guzzler this time....1000wh/mi versus 340wh/mi.

Everyone on ES should know that you can't pull 24kwh from a 24kwh battery. You don't want to kill such an expensive pack. To ensure you can get 24kwh out, you want a 30kwh pack - batteries will lose some capacity over time too, so you may want like 32kwh to ensure you have 24kwh usable-capacity 8yrs later.


Batteries are still the issue...

The Leaf is super efficient, but it only has about 19.2kwh usable (roughly 80% of 24kwh), and the battery has to weigh over 500lbs. In order to range-match my vehicle, the Leaf would need a 175kwh pack...good luck affording and carrying such a beast. [175kwh * 0.8 = 140kwh usable / 0.34kwh/mi = 411 miles]

There may still be ways to increase efficiency, but I think electrics are at a disadvantage since there's not as much room for improvement. Even if you could cut the Leaf's consumption in half, from 340wh/mi to 170wh/mi, you'd still need an 87kwh pack (2000lbs!) to range-match most ICE vehicles.

It just plain radiculous to compare energy densities just like that.
Exactely ,because ICombustion waste 70-80%of energy fed to it.
You must look at all picture.
Also maintainance costs, environmental costs.
Coming to electric vehicles forum like Endless Sphere and claim evehicle is vaporware is quite brave and I must say provocative.
It is like saying all what people ride here is vaporware.
So your title of your thread is NONSENSE by itself.
Unless, you don't understand what "vaporware" means.
Evehicles are for real and in everyday use.
Nissan Leaf is excellent commuter in the city, no vaporware.
Check in Webster dictionary what "vaporware" means.
I mean coming to evehicle forum with thread like that??
If you do not accept evehicles do not come to forums like that and post this.

micro I think you missed the point. he's on your side; he was just saying that there's too many players in the game who aren't playing straight. and the high costs of the technologies tight now are holding back progress.