TESLA high performance tuning discusion

Yes you have really read TUNING.. and i dont mean the "tuning" most website are offering like adding cf spioler, racing rims etc... .. but MOTOR , Controller and battery tuning !!

I would dream having someone asking me to hack his Tesla for drag racing performance purpose!

ONe of the first thing i would do is remove that big 90kWh battery pack and replace it by LiPO !!

In fact the Tesla S use a 1200 pounds battery of 90kWh that is useless for drag racing!

It contain 96 group in serie and is capabel to deliver 1500Aburst.

Now with the top performance LiPO actually availlable how much weight and what performance gain ww could obtain!!

The Known Lonestars lipo in the National Electric Drag Racing Association ( NEDRA), many, including me are using the true 100C lipo they offer. These are in a 4.5Ah pack.

Now the question is howe many of these LiPo cells and what weight reduction we could acheive!

let's calculate a bit:

let assume we use the cells to 50C for more safety purpose: This represent 225A per 1P cell.

The P90D can take 1500A so that's about 7p

The Tesla use voltage that use 96 in serie so for a drag racing lipo pack that would be 640 cells for a total of 11.8kWh and weight

Each cells weight 114g. That mean for 640 cells that's a total weight of just 160 pounds !!!

The original battery weight is 1200 pounds... so we would save 1040 pounds !!! :wink:

Now what it represent...:

original weight is 4647 pounds

New weight: 3607 pounds 8)

a diff of 23% less weight !!

The actual E.T on teh 1/4 mile according to the test that Motor Trend did is 10.9s.. and it still really impressive!

Now with 1040 pounds of battery removed the calculated E.T drop to 10.009s !!!

https://robrobinette.com/et.htm

Doctorbass said:

Yes you have really read TUNING.. and i dont mean the "tuning" most website are offering like adding cf spioler, racing rims etc... .. but MOTOR , Controller and battery tuning !!.........

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Personally, i wouldn't call swapping out the battery "tuning" any more than adding some "dope" to an ICE's fuel tank is tuning.
and its odd , (but true)...i would have expected taking 1000lb out of the car would give more than 0.9 sec off the 1/4 time ?

I bet you could get 0-60 bellow 2s with the lighter battery. I would be interested to see what needs to be done for a little more out of the motors and controllers.

I think the performance upgrades would be more important on the NON P models IE. Turning a 90D into a P90D Or a 70D into a P70D...

Another thing to consider is the battery in the tesla is a stressed member of the frame helping to stiffen the chassis. Also keeps the center of gravity low.

A friend took his P85+ around Wanneroo raceway and he said it handled rather well for a 2+ ton car. However after just two laps his power was dialled back due to overheating. Must be a way to improve that...

jonescg said:

A friend took his P85+ around Wanneroo raceway and he said it handled rather well for a 2+ ton car. However after just two laps his power was dialled back due to overheating. Must be a way to improve that...

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it has the coolant volume and flow capacity.. it just needs a bigger radiator. Currently the radiator is sized for the most abusive "normal" driving it would see.. desert heat uphill at fast hwy speed. thats alot less than a racetrack coming out of corners.. or even hotlapping a dragstrip.


still, thats just problem solving. real tuning should eek this into the 9s, without even swapping hardparts.

jonescg said:

A friend took his P85+ around Wanneroo raceway and he said it handled rather well for a 2+ ton car. However after just two laps his power was dialled back due to overheating. Must be a way to improve that...

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I'm not clear if that is battery temperature or motor temp ?
But either way, it's not a problem for the strip !
I don't see the "S" being a circuit racer any time soon....for various reasons....but I sure could see a stripped out version with a smaller lipo pack and other power tweeks, being a real drift weapon ! 8)

Hillhater said:

jonescg said:

A friend took his P85+ around Wanneroo raceway and he said it handled rather well for a 2+ ton car. However after just two laps his power was dialled back due to overheating. Must be a way to improve that...

Click to expand...

I'm not clear if that is battery temperature or motor temp ?
But either way, it's not a problem for the strip !
I don't see the "S" being a circuit racer any time soon....for various reasons....but I sure could see a stripped out version with a smaller lipo pack and other power tweeks, being a real drift weapon ! 8)

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both the battery, inverter, and motor are all water cooled by the same system. If you increase its ability to shed heat (aka bigger radiator) it will slow or stop its overheating.

Yes I understand.
But where is most of the heat being generated ? Pack...inverter, or motor ?

Hillhater said:

Yes I understand.
But where is most of the heat being generated ? Pack...inverter, or motor ?

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There is no proof it's limited due to overheating at all.
I suspect it's just to prevent general abuse.

Could be the motor rotor, though. Their motors are pretty small for the power, and being AC induction, they are less efficient at high load than a similar quality and size permanent magnet motor.

I did a handcalc for the P90D based on the cells they use, the pack generates about 100kW of heat at peak load 1500A. (20A per cell)
That's not as bad as you think. You could pull 1500A from the pack for a full minute continuously and the cells wouldn't overheat.

It would be fun to replace the cells with 30Q's ~50 in parallel, remove all of the 400lbs of frame, and you'd save 600 lbs and you could pull 2000A from 50 30Q's in parallel for drag racing.
I'll get right on that.

What about getting the drivetrain )sans battery) from a salvage Tesla, and installing it on a purpose built drag racing chassis?

But I guess we are talking about retaining the aesthetics and Tesla look

alex12342011 said:

What about getting the drivetrain )sans battery) from a salvage Tesla, and installing it on a purpose built drag racing chassis?

But I guess we are talking about retaining the aesthetics and Tesla look

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Hmm ? ..you could say that is the extreme opposite end of the "tuning" spectrum to just swapping in a different battery ! :lol:

alex12342011 said:

What about getting the drivetrain )sans battery) from a salvage Tesla, and installing it on a purpose built drag racing chassis?

But I guess we are talking about retaining the aesthetics and Tesla look

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thats the way to do it. take that tesla motor/drivetrain subframe, and put it on a tube frame chassis.
run minimal battery... and let her fly.

Theres already a guy that made a universal inverter controller that can control the tesla inverter.

well, if nothing else, it would be interesting to see how the Brushless AC Tesla drive train stacked up against other purpose built EV drag rails that use DC brushed motors, 3000 amp controllers, and full gear transmissions !

The sooner everyone gets ride of brushed motors the better. All the failures at the track are brushes melting down into a plasma ball. And this happens all the time.
Brushed motors are so obsolete its not even funny. The only reason you see a few in drag events is because of the lack of money put Into the R&D required for high power brushless.

So what you are saying is that it's easier and cheaper to make a brushed motor perform, than a brushless ?
Or have Garlits, Lawless, Metric, etc all got it wrong ?

Arlo1 said:

The sooner everyone gets ride of brushed motors the better. All the failures at the track are brushes melting down into a plasma ball. And this happens all the time.
Brushed motors are so obsolete its not even funny. The only reason you see a few in drag events is because of the lack of money put Into the R&D required for high power brushless.

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Yeah, that might be true, but show me 400 V 3000 A controller for ACIM or BLDC that I can buy, and costs less than 15000$.

Hillhater said:

So what you are saying is that it's easier and cheaper to make a brushed motor perform, than a brushless ?
Or have Garlits, Lawless, Metric, etc all got it wrong ?

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It's the easiest path to 'fast', but they aren't ideal for continuous abuse and not as 'service free' as you'd like in a daily driver (exposed brushes, forced air cooling is loud, brush gunk, etc).

For instance this is a brush view of John Metric's 8second miata making a pass:
http://gfycat.com/BaggyIdleFreshwatereel



This is considered normal for high amp builds. :/

The bottlenecks to great AC motor'd builds are the need for an 'off the shelf' 10:1 reduction box that can take 10-15k rpm input and more water cooled motor options.

alex12342011 said:

What about getting the drivetrain )sans battery) from a salvage Tesla, and installing it on a purpose built drag racing chassis?

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This is what I'm most excited for. It's not just dedicated drag cars, but a lot of high end track/street builds have rollcages that tie into the rear subframe mounts. While not trivial, it wouldn't be much of a stretch for most chassis/fab shops to handle.

riba2233 said:

Arlo1 said:

The sooner everyone gets ride of brushed motors the better. All the failures at the track are brushes melting down into a plasma ball. And this happens all the time.
Brushed motors are so obsolete its not even funny. The only reason you see a few in drag events is because of the lack of money put Into the R&D required for high power brushless.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that might be true, but show me 400 V 3000 A controller for ACIM or BLDC that I can buy, and costs less than 15000$.

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This is exactly the problem. The Garlits car would be Brushless already if the controller were available to do the 1600HP+ needed for the job.

But hopefully things are shifting that way with some more development.

adriftatsea said:

Hillhater said:

So what you are saying is that it's easier and cheaper to make a brushed motor perform, than a brushless ?
Or have Garlits, Lawless, Metric, etc all got it wrong ?

Click to expand...

It's the easiest path to 'fast', but they aren't ideal for continuous abuse and not as 'service free' as you'd like in a daily driver (exposed brushes, forced air cooling is loud, brush gunk, etc).
.

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Sure, but we are talking drag race.....where you max every thing out until it just lasts the length of the run.
...it's not an endurance competition, or cost controlled.

Hillhater said:

adriftatsea said:

Hillhater said:

So what you are saying is that it's easier and cheaper to make a brushed motor perform, than a brushless ?
Or have Garlits, Lawless, Metric, etc all got it wrong ?

Click to expand...

It's the easiest path to 'fast', but they aren't ideal for continuous abuse and not as 'service free' as you'd like in a daily driver (exposed brushes, forced air cooling is loud, brush gunk, etc).
.

Click to expand...

Sure, but we are talking drag race.....where you max every thing out until it just lasts the length of the run.
...it's not an endurance competition, or cost controlled.

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Most of the time they don't make it to the end of the 1/4 mile. The brushes are failing like crazy at their power levels.
The are simply using brushed motors because the world is waiting for brushless controller tech to be developed.
I am working on it as hard as I can in my spare time. If you guys want to send $ I will speed up the process
Non the less I have the leaf inverter aiming to make 300+ HP for 10 seconds burst. And the next version for 500+hp for 10 seconds or less and then something bigger.

All in steps.

Hillhater said:

...it's not an endurance competition, or cost controlled.

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I disagree. Unless you're in the very top racing series, EVERYTHING is cost controlled.

MrDude_1 said:

Hillhater said:

...it's not an endurance competition, or cost controlled.

Click to expand...

I disagree. Unless you're in the very top racing series, EVERYTHING is cost controlled.

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I would suspect Garlits would rank near the very top when it comes to funding !
..but really, just saying, I doubt $$$'s were a big part of his technical choices !
..Just a matter of definition...
Some race series may be cost controlled ( where the rules dictate budget/cost limits on items..EG, a "claimer" series),
But top level drag racing is not.
It may be "limited" by some internal team financial priorities, but that would not stop guys burning up a few sets of brushes or a motor , if they thought there was a record to be nailed ! :lol:

The single reason brushed is so prevalent in drag, is because controllers like Shiva and Zilla 2k's exist.

If brushless controllers had an offering in the same power range as the Shiva or Z2K, you would never see a performance EV build use a brushed motor again.

I'm deeply thankful to folks like Arlo and Zombiess hard at work to make it happen!

Hobby will always lead industry in the game of the bleeding edge, this is because while hobby builds are often resource limited, the work is being done in passion for a love of the work. Industry just pays people, you can never get the quality of output from paying someone vs having that person motivated by passion.

If Tesla assembled a p90d pack with a power cell like the LG HB2 (which would make it only a ~40kWh pack and cut the cars range in ~half), I would think the car could break into single digit quarter mile times on the stock motor/controller with re-tuning.

ATB,
-Luke