Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13178
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by neptronix » Dec 07 2018 9:20pm

Hillhater wrote:
Dec 07 2018 9:12pm
Its no use comparing energy to inflation, if you income does not increase at the same rate.
In many countries , Europe, Australia, UK, etc ,..electricity (and gas) prices have doubled and trippled in the past 5-10 years. Income has not. Unemployment has also increased.
Many countries already have social subsidies for power bills, but as with any social funding , it is way insufficient !
You forget , that in California you have a very privelidged life style, immune from much of the worlds issues.
Yes, it's different over there, where they have really taxed the living shit out of energy, and i would say what they did in your side of the world was very over the top.

But something needs to happen to reduce our footprint here. China only recently overtook us as the world's #1 polluter, buuutt..... they have 4 times the people of the USA and i'd say 25% of their entire industry is dedicated to serving the west, so a good part of China is basically just the west's 'long tailpipe'.

I actually live in Utah where energy is extremely cheap and a thousand or so people die yearly from pollution during our 2 inversion seasons, which last 2-3 months each. There are other states in the USA like mine.

I guess i am arguing more for my situation than yours. Europe and Australia are pretty damn energy efficient compared to the United States. Drivin' 1 liter cars and such in the UK.. wow.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:


My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: ? on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.

cricketo   100 W

100 W
Posts: 289
Joined: Oct 23 2018 10:01pm

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Dec 07 2018 10:29pm

Hillhater wrote:
Dec 07 2018 8:52pm
Interesting that you associated the increasing cost of electricity with renewables,..
Actually while you were trying to catch me on a freudian slip of some kind, you should not have read too much
into the actual wording - I only said that your statement is ridiculous. The fact you're even going there may be a
freudian slip of your own :D

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Dec 07 2018 11:49pm

you are way over-thinkig this.
The increasing cost of electricity is directly atributed to the conversion to renewable's.
Every country /state that has converted a significant proportion of it generation to Solar/wind has experience huge increases in power costs, and those with the most RE have the highest cost.
You will no doubt dismiss that as coincidental or attempt some wondrous explanation, but the evidence is there and the reason is obvious..It is back up and storage.
This is one of the fundamental flaws , ..and repeated lies of the RE lobby,.. that Wind/Solar are cheaper,..but they are only fooling themselves.
..... and the majority of the world Politicians. !
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

Hanssing   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 43
Joined: Aug 06 2016 6:57am

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hanssing » Dec 08 2018 10:51am

Hillhater wrote:
Dec 07 2018 9:00pm
You are incorrectly assuming that those deaths from heat/cold are a "third world" issue.
Its happening in the Western , developed , world also...BECAUSE energy has become too expensive already.
Sorry to bust your time in La-La land, but that utter and total bullsh*t - completely false.
I know you are just repeating the same nonsense over and over, untill no one cares about your inane ramblings, but jeeez.

Hanssing   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 43
Joined: Aug 06 2016 6:57am

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hanssing » Dec 08 2018 10:56am

Hillhater wrote:
Dec 07 2018 9:12pm
Its no use comparing energy to inflation, if you income does not increase at the same rate.
Of course it does, inflation and income will correleate, and cannot over time change very much in a developed contry with stable economics.
In many countries , Europe, Australia, UK, etc ,..electricity (and gas) prices have doubled and trippled in the past 5-10 years. Income has not. Unemployment has also increased.
Please stop with this idiotic crap. Spewing nonsense, and not showing the facts.
Show where the electricity-prices at the meter have changed by +100%, when corrected for inflation, during the last 5 years.
You should be able to show "many"?

Its not the case no matter how much you dream it is. I know you get a kick out of trolling but still, this is childish.

cricketo   100 W

100 W
Posts: 289
Joined: Oct 23 2018 10:01pm

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Dec 08 2018 12:40pm

Hanssing wrote:
Dec 08 2018 10:56am
Show where the electricity-prices at the meter have changed by +100%, when corrected for inflation, during the last 5 years.
You should be able to show "many"?

Its not the case no matter how much you dream it is. I know you get a kick out of trolling but still, this is childish.
:bigthumb:

In all fairness, electricity prices in Australia went to high levels, though the reasons behind it can be disputed.
Generators were “gaming” the system: using their power in concentrated markets to create artificial scarcity of supply and so force prices up. The Grattan Institute says gaming is completely legal within the current market rules and may add as much as $800m to the value of electricity traded in the Nem in some years.
The Grattan Institute says wholesale electricity prices rose across the Nem by 130% on average between 2015 and 2017, with household bills in some states increasing by up to 20% in 2017 alone.
“But retail electricity prices in Australia are unlikely to come down materially any time soon,” Buckley said.

“Wholesale generation costs are 10-20% of the total retail price of electricity. The grid transmission and distribution [T&D] is 50% of the retail price total – so gold plating of T&D is the real reason retail electricity prices are at record highs, and likely to stay there.”

He said the Turnbull government’s Neg “does nothing to resolve the ridiculous over-investment in the wrong type of T&D”.

billvon   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2275
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Dec 08 2018 1:01pm

cricketo wrote:
Dec 07 2018 4:42pm
t is not a similar issue.
This has obviously become a very personal issue for you, so I will bow out.
--bill von

cricketo   100 W

100 W
Posts: 289
Joined: Oct 23 2018 10:01pm

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Dec 08 2018 1:05pm

billvon wrote:
Dec 08 2018 1:01pm
cricketo wrote:
Dec 07 2018 4:42pm
t is not a similar issue.
This has obviously become a very personal issue for you, so I will bow out.
Haha, not really. :thumb:

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Dec 08 2018 5:34pm

Hanssing wrote:
Dec 08 2018 10:56am
Hillhater wrote:
Dec 07 2018 9:12pm
In many countries , Europe, Australia, UK, etc ,..electricity (and gas) prices have doubled and trippled in the past 5-10 years. Income has not. Unemployment has also increased.
Please stop with this idiotic crap. Spewing nonsense, and not showing the facts.
Show where the electricity-prices at the meter have changed by +100%, when corrected for inflation, during the last 5 years.
You should be able to show "many"?
If you want to have an adult discussion, it pays to check the facts before opening your mouth.
I not going to do your homework for you, but here are a couple of examples...
Just the first articles that popped up on Google..
Australia..
....historically, electricity prices tracked fairly closely to general consumer price trends.
In the past decade, however, electricity has shot off the charts. Since 2008 power prices have risen 117 per cent, more than four times the average price increase across sectors.
Image
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-18/ ... ay/9985300

The UK...and not new news, it a few years since this was reported...
The cost of gas to families has almost tripled, rising by 190 per cent, in just ten years, the Office for National Statistics said today. The cost of electricity has increased by 120 per cent in the same period, meaning it has more than doubled.
In the same period, the average price of all household goods, measured with the Consumer Price Index, has risen by just over 30 per cent.....
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/ ... years.html

And Germany...they saw the worst increases when they introduced their RE conversion..
.....
The German electricity consumer advocacy group NAEB projects that Germany’s electric power rates will continue to soar, possibly reaching an industry back-breaking 45 euro cents per kilowatt-hour by 2020, and even higher over the years that follow.
Image
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

Hanssing   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 43
Joined: Aug 06 2016 6:57am

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hanssing » Dec 09 2018 5:30am

Hillhater wrote:
Dec 08 2018 5:34pm
Best selections .....
For AU electricity
Priceindex 2008Q1=339.24, 2013Q1=384.17, 2018Q1=423,17
Electric index: 2008Q1= 407.34, 2013Q1=745.38, 2018Q1=884,92
Adjusted increase = 7.7% over 5 years
Adjusted increase = 74% over 10 years, AAAAND you run on coal.....

Your reference to british costs is from 2013 - thats not new enough to even discuss.
But here you go: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... e-stastics
Electric 2008Q1=102.9
Electric 2013Q1=114.6
Electric 2018Q3=131.2
Gas 2008Q1=99.8
Gas 2013Q1=123.9
Gas 2018Q3=112.5

For germany you dont provide a reference.
I have one though: https://www.statista.com/statistics/418 ... n-germany/
2018H1 = 29.5 c/kWh
2013H1 = 29.19 c/kWh
2010H1 = 23.75 c/kWh

Are you able to do the math your self? Or is math something invented by a conspiracy to show global warming also?

Again you are so full of false claims, denial, and so forth is cringing to read your trolling posts.
You come of as a fact resistant petulant child.

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Dec 09 2018 8:13am

You can try to disguise cost increases by "correcting" them if it makes you feel better..
...but you cannot "correct" for CPI, since energy cost is a major factor in the change of CPI.
And if you seriously want to see the cost effect of RE introduction, you need to look at the data for the period of its introduction...IE Germany 2000 -2010...not 2008 - 2018 !
But im not going to try to convine you of something you dont want to know,....
.... but for something for you to dwell on , try this chart of electricity costs in Australia.
.....note, SA is the state with the most RE % recently installed and all coal generation shut down since 2016
Image
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

Hanssing   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 43
Joined: Aug 06 2016 6:57am

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hanssing » Dec 09 2018 9:38am

Hillhater wrote:
Dec 09 2018 8:13am
You can try to disguise cost increases by "correcting" them if it makes you feel better..
...but you cannot "correct" for CPI, since energy cost is a major factor in the change of CPI.
And if you seriously want to see the cost effect of RE introduction, you need to look at the data for the period of its introduction...IE Germany 2000 -2010...not 2008 - 2018 !
Arrg, come on, you can do better :-) Or is your understanding of economics as poor as it is of scientific methods?
As readers are aware I was answering your false claims of "doubling and tripling in consumerprice at the meter within past 5-10 years in many western countries" - don't really like to get caught in a blatant lie do you?
The post is right here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 9#p1430179

You primitive deflection is pathetic.

The thing is you have lost *all* credibility. You might have had a point somewhere in the thousands of posts - but your denialist approach just makes you look - well as a troll.

Punx0r   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4954
Joined: May 03 2012 8:16am
Location: England

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Dec 09 2018 1:49pm

Utility rates have increased in the UK (although certainly not doubled or tripled) but we buy a lot of our gas from Russia and pay what they charge. Most of our electricity is generated by burning said gas, so...

If you have evidence that these increases are, in fact, due to RE subsidies, please post it, rather than us just trusting the factoids sourced from the voices in your head. I believe it was you who previously complained that "correlation is not causation".

FWIW house prices in the UK are actually something that did double (or triple) in 10 years, but I've yet to see anyone try and claim this was the fault of wind turbines..

cricketo   100 W

100 W
Posts: 289
Joined: Oct 23 2018 10:01pm

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Dec 09 2018 3:02pm

Where is the popcorn smiley when you need it :mrgreen:

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Dec 09 2018 6:19pm

Hanssing wrote:
Dec 09 2018 9:38am
Hillhater wrote:
Dec 09 2018 8:13am
You can try to disguise cost increases by "correcting" them if it makes you feel better..
...but you cannot "correct" for CPI, since energy cost is a major factor in the change of CPI.
And if you seriously want to see the cost effect of RE introduction, you need to look at the data for the period of its introduction...IE Germany 2000 -2010...not 2008 - 2018 !
Arrg, come on, you can do better :-) Or is your understanding of economics as poor as it is of scientific methods?
As readers are aware I was answering your false claims of "doubling and tripling in consumerprice at the meter within past 5-10 years in many western countries" - don't really like to get caught in a blatant lie do you?
The post is right here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 9#p1430179
OK , so maybe i should have said " in a 5 - 10 year period" .....rather than the last 5-10 yrs .. ..IE:- That period immediately after significant RE introduction.
( which is the case for SAustralia )
It seems to me that you are the one in denial here,..trying to ignor and disguise the hard facts of escalating power prices .
The data i posted all had references
Australia ..Australian Bureau of Statistics.
UK....Office for National Statistics (reported in the Telegraph)
Germany.....National consumer group NAEB.
But i am sure you will find cause to dispute and ignor them !

In many countries , Europe, Australia, UK, etc ,..electricity (and gas) prices have doubled and trippled in the past 5-10 years. Income has not. [/ quote]
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

Punx0r   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4954
Joined: May 03 2012 8:16am
Location: England

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Dec 09 2018 6:44pm

So what you meant was: in one Australian state, where the grid is badly mismanaged and producers make it their businss strategy to rip off consumers by exploiting shortages, electricity prices rose a lot quite quickly.

Yeah, sure, if someone happened to live in that corner of the World I can see why they'd be pissed off and looking for something to blame. Especially something they already disagree with on ideological grounds.

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Dec 09 2018 7:34pm

Punx0r wrote:
Dec 09 2018 1:49pm
Utility rates have increased in the UK (although certainly not doubled or tripled) but we buy a lot of our gas from Russia and pay what they charge. Most of our electricity is generated by burning said gas, so...

If you have evidence that these increases are, in fact, due to RE subsidies, please post it, rather than us just trusting the factoids sourced from the voices in your head. I believe it was you who previously complained that "correlation is not causation".

FWIW house prices in the UK are actually something that did double (or triple) in 10 years, but I've yet to see anyone try and claim this was the fault of wind turbines..
I didnt suggest it was all due to subsidies ?...though they are bound to be a factor.
What i did say was the cost increases are the result of needing to retain (or install new) thermal generation backup and more storage , for all the Wind/Solar capacity.
And that the simple facts are that those countrys/states with the most Wind/solar just happen to be the ones with the highest electricity costs..
But , i guess you ignored /dismissed the data for other countries.
House prices ??
Im sure the IPCC could show a model that demonstrated how they are directly related to CO2 concentrations :wink:
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Dec 09 2018 9:06pm

Punx0r wrote:
Dec 09 2018 6:44pm
So what you meant was: in one Australian state, where the grid is badly mismanaged and producers make it their businss strategy to rip off consumers by exploiting shortages, electricity prices rose a lot quite quickly..
Partly right.
Certainly grossly mismanaged by SA state government to force the adoption of wind & solar, and completely shut down all coal generation.
..That is what caused the shortages (and blackouts), but it also forced a dependency on backup from other states which due to the power pricing market, also forced up the costs in other states .....which you seem to have ignored
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

Punx0r   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4954
Joined: May 03 2012 8:16am
Location: England

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Dec 10 2018 3:06am

But other countries have managed to transition from a state of being majority-coal fired to shutting them down. There are alternatives to shortages and blackouts.

I fully accept there's a good chance the cheapest option for energy is the dirtiest and will save consumers money and so make some of them happier. This makes sense: if a producer of plastic doodads is free to dump their chemical sludge in the local river rather than dispose of it properly then they can pass savings on to their customers.

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13178
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by neptronix » Dec 10 2018 2:54pm

Punx0r wrote:
Dec 10 2018 3:06am
I fully accept there's a good chance the cheapest option for energy is the dirtiest and will save consumers money and so make some of them happier. This makes sense: if a producer of plastic doodads is free to dump their chemical sludge in the local river rather than dispose of it properly then they can pass savings on to their customers.
That's the problem.
Nobody wants to go without their doodads.

Gimme a 4,800lb Tesla Model S full of metals that are pollution-heavy to extract and refine ( cobalt, aluminum, nickel, etc ) so i can feel like i'm doing my part... cuz i don't wanna take public transport, ride a bike, or drive a much more humble little EV or hybrid...

This is the attitude of your usual self professed environmentalist.
Thus, this is the problem with environmentalism in the United States.

Yes, there is a handful of people who are serious about reducing their footprint. Within this forum, you might find a headcount of a dozen. And most likely, those people live in a place where it is convenient to do so. Or they are young and single and don't care about what society thinks of them.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:


My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: ? on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.

billvon   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2275
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Dec 10 2018 4:34pm

neptronix wrote:
Dec 10 2018 2:54pm
Gimme a 4,800lb Tesla Model S full of metals that are pollution-heavy to extract and refine ( cobalt, aluminum, nickel, etc ) so i can feel like i'm doing my part... cuz i don't wanna take public transport, ride a bike, or drive a much more humble little EV or hybrid...
Yep. And to Chalo, your "humble little EV or hybrid" makes you an immoral murderer.

I've given up caring if anyone approves of what I am doing. I just do the best I can, and let people think what they will.
--bill von

cricketo   100 W

100 W
Posts: 289
Joined: Oct 23 2018 10:01pm

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Dec 10 2018 7:48pm

neptronix wrote:
Dec 10 2018 2:54pm
Gimme a 4,800lb Tesla Model S full of metals that are pollution-heavy to extract and refine ( cobalt, aluminum, nickel, etc ) so i can feel like i'm doing my part... cuz i don't wanna take public transport, ride a bike, or drive a much more humble little EV or hybrid...
How much is that Tesla S different from thousands of non-EVs rotting in scrap yards ? Other than the battery pack, we probably have enough of those metals to build cars for generations to come without having to mine or refine anything. Problem is that would put industries that deal with mining and refining out of business, so let them rot, and we'll make more new shiny metal from scratch.

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Dec 10 2018 8:16pm

cricketo wrote:
Dec 10 2018 7:48pm
...we probably have enough of those metals to build cars for generations to come without having to mine or refine anything. Problem is that would put industries that deal with mining and refining out of business, so let them rot, and we'll make more new shiny metal from scratch.
You understanding of society is obviously limited..
1) the vast majority of scrap metal is already recycled, limited by practicality and cost.
2) the total number of vehicles on the road is constantly increasing, so even if all unuseable vehicles were 100% recycled, there still would not be enough metal to satisfy the demand for all the shiny new ones .
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Dec 10 2018 8:36pm

I challenge anyone with an open mind to watch this video.. (skip the first 9 mins of intro) ...and not have concerns over IPCC guidance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtIgMftbUuw

PS:... You can also have a good laugh at the subtitles !!
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13178
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by neptronix » Dec 10 2018 8:39pm

cricketo wrote:
Dec 10 2018 7:48pm
How much is that Tesla S different from thousands of non-EVs rotting in scrap yards ? Other than the battery pack, we probably have enough of those metals to build cars for generations to come without having to mine or refine anything. Problem is that would put industries that deal with mining and refining out of business, so let them rot, and we'll make more new shiny metal from scratch.
The problem with recycling is the amount of energy it needs. Lithium batteries aren't really recycled these days, mostly put in giant piles for us to figure out what to do with later ( if ever ). A recycling process has to filter out all kinds of metals. I'm sure it's an expensive or chemically intensive ( thus dirty ) process.

Car bodies are a lot easier. A lot of the adhesives 'n stuff probably burns off in the metal slurry.

But i'm not referring really to the metal use. Moreso that a 4,800lbs car is pretty huge overkill for going to the grocery store and back, eh? it takes a lot of energy to form the car, and more energy to deconstruct it. A 4,800lbs car needs big brakes, big tires, big suspension components etc etc - as large as what you see on mondo sized trucks, and beats up the road as bad as a big truck.

Heck even the smaller EVs like the Model 3 come in at a crazy 4000lbs figure fully loaded.

The lighter the vehicle is, the less battery it needs. The less battery you need, the less mining you need to do. The less mining you do, the more you lower the environmental footprint of the EV, which... in 4000lbs car form, doesn't really scale up and look like a win for the environment, unless we have a battery breakthrough and can get the car down to 3,000lbs and a battery that requires less materials. ( which could happen in the next few years )

We can do better than this though. For sure.

You know what i'd love? an electric kei car that seats 2. But i'd be dead on the road, so.. it's an econobox and bicycle for me.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:


My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: ? on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.

Post Reply