Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
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ZeroEm   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Mar 09 2020 9:59am

Would like to see trump's face today! Oil is as cheap as when I worked in it 40+ years ago. Should shut down a few companies, maybe they will move over to sustainable energy.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Mar 09 2020 11:57am

Dauntless wrote:
Mar 08 2020 9:52pm
And if so many had their way, vegan would be 100%. Not just vegans, have you ever noticed how many people sound off about doing away with livestock while they're eating hamburgers, etc.?
Never heard a single person sound off about doing away with livestock while they were eating a hamburger.

I am thinking you made that up.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by nicobie » Mar 09 2020 1:36pm

JackFlorey wrote:
Mar 09 2020 11:57am


I am thinking you made that up.

Par for the course.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Mar 09 2020 3:47pm

I have over heard that talking about it is as good as doing it.

I thought the rule is/was eat less meat, anyway I feel better when I eat less.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Mar 10 2020 12:50am

JackFlorey wrote:
Mar 09 2020 11:57am
I am thinking you made that up.
Proves more a lack of thinking. Takes a sort of person to say that.
nicobie wrote:
Mar 09 2020 1:36pm
Par for the course.
See what I mean?
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by TheBeastie » Mar 10 2020 3:15am

I have often driven past this old paper-mill in Melbourne, it even had its own onsite coal-power station and coal rail line to feed it coal, this is because paper-mills require large amounts of electricity.

The whole paper-mill/coal-power station is being converted to a huge apartment complex with parts of the old paper-mill/power-station left in tacked as part of its artistic heritage/style.
‘Architecturally significant’ power station to be demolished, replaced with housing development
https://architectureau.com/articles/arc ... velopment/
Here are some people exploring the old paper-mill/power-station before the new department redevelopments really began.
Probably the first one is the best cos of the drone footage, I have seen an older video of this paper-mill when there was still more old buildings there but can't find it, the whole cleared area used to be full of old buildings/machinery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODh9XmtSpus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwR5SGgY3lk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05b5EJUyhiQ
https://youtu.be/bYBQRBzeV9Y?t=366

Apparently Australia now imports about 33% of its paper-tissue from China/overseas, obviously because it's cheaper, the only reason it would be cheaper is due to cheaper manufacturing processes caused by cheaper electricity prices.
Imagehttps://www.timberbiz.com.au/china-tops ... australia/

So it might take another 20 years of "cheaper renewable energy :wink:" to entirely kill off all of the paper-mill activities in Australia, and then Australians will be entirely depending on toilet paper imported from China...
download/file.php?id=268088
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=89002&start=5550#p1533833

Here are some of the toilet paper hoard wars in Australia. You like to think its just a few supermarket but all my local supermarkets are totally empty of toilet paper too, it really is amazing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1nEnOmC6IQ


YouTube is actually terrible for finding/anyone uploading these types of videos, Twitter is MUCH better.
Here is the latest, this one today of an ALDI opening up with fresh toilet paper stocks.
https://twitter.com/NavidHedayati/statu ... 19936?s=20
https://twitter.com/KeiraSavage00/statu ... 82851?s=20
Others
https://twitter.com/GeorgeBakhos1/statu ... 96448?s=20
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/12 ... 29760?s=20
https://twitter.com/Neda_Freedom/status ... 55872?s=20
https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/stat ... 94145?s=20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jrsm_YEdm4

A comedian on the toilet paper hoarding wars.


Video number two on the virus


CNN accused Trump of being racist/xenophobic because of his use of the words "Wuhan Virus", but CNN actually used it far more.


Coronavirus Shows Trump Was RIGHT ABOUT CHINA!!!
https://youtu.be/SuKDnbAMqxo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found these videos on the naturally occurring Radon gas interesting.
Radon can cause lung #cancer, but you can’t see, taste, or smell this radioactive gas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsKBVUPYfog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlRVdKdTBFE

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Satellite images show how smog pollution has dropped in northern Italy after weeks of coronavirus restrictions
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... mailonline
https://twitter.com/SanGasso/status/123 ... 56485?s=20
So you can see this is definitely a win for lithium-ion cars vs combustion cars. Even if EV cars caused an equivalent amount of air pollution(when charging via coal/gas power-station, and high amount of mining/manufacturing etc) the clear advantage is that EVs can "displace/relocate" the pollution somewhere else and as well as displace it at a different point in time.
Image
Last edited by TheBeastie on Mar 15 2020 6:24am, edited 22 times in total.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Mar 10 2020 3:23am

Its not just trivial items like tissue, many of our essential products and daily necessities rely on the good grace of china supply.
T C , makes a interesting point that Fossil Fuels are one of the few significant economic factors that the USA can still control ..most RE systems require products from china to be viable.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Mar 10 2020 3:51am

An urbex video of an old paper mill and a video of people fighting over toilet paper. The rubbish that has been repeatedly posted in this thread by certain members is both saddening and annoying.

But in the new world of every opinion being of equal value, of the "balanced" debate and the principle of there being "no bad ideas" I guess this is the sort of s**t we must expect.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Mar 10 2020 10:53am

Dauntless wrote:
Mar 10 2020 12:50am
Proves more a lack of thinking. Takes a sort of person to say that.
Why yes it does!

I often see things on the Internet like that. Right after the ACA passed, every republican out there had a story of how they had just been laid off because of the crushing burden placed on their hardworking, struggling employer by Obamacare. Or how their best friend had been laid off. Or their son. (Of course a week later they were complaining about their boss again.) Funny how such things, things that perfectly support the poster's spin on things, always seem to happen at the most convenient time.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Mar 10 2020 3:27pm

JackFlorey wrote:
Mar 10 2020 10:53am
Right after the ACA passed, every republican out there had a story of how they had just been laid off because of the crushing burden placed on their hardworking, struggling employer by Obamacare. Or how their best friend had been laid off. Or their son. (Of course a week later they were complaining about their boss again.) Funny how such things, things that perfectly support the poster's spin on things, always seem to happen at the most convenient time.
Even funnier how the people who accuse others of making things up are who actually do it. I suppose caused by an aversion to substance.

This is gonna hurt you more than it hurts me. https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/10/business ... index.html
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Mar 12 2020 1:07am

Hillhater wrote:
Mar 08 2020 9:39pm
Punx0r wrote:
Mar 04 2020 4:34am
Hillhater wrote:
Mar 03 2020 4:24pm
They are in your neck of the woods..(Oxford.).. You should pop round and have a chat..put them straight ! :roll:
By Aussie standards they're practically my neighbours ;) My understanding is their research has been the groundwork for the larger ITER facility in France where there's the actual chance for a sustained reaction/useful power output.
Yes, the “FirstLight” guy said on the video, that their main business is the ”Inertial Confinement “ technology and production of the “target pellet” and the way it generates the high temperatures for the Fusion reaction.
Encouraging work, but obviously a long way to go yet but they are confident it will be fully commercial and producing base load Electricity generation by 2030
Correction. ! ..maybe unrelated to the ITER work....
I just caught a doco on the ITER project which apart from being a much larger scale , also is based on a different pressure/Temp generation system and Magnetic containment, compared to First Light.
The ITER project guys were suggesting a 20-30 yr time line for a working pilot experiment and “generations” of work before a commercial Fusion power grid can be expected ??
There are other independent projects ( General Fusion, USA) also with a different approach again.
The common theme/comment from all teams however was that Nuclear will be essential for future energy, and until Fusion is available, we should be developing the next generations of Fission reactors to carry us through.
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ZeroEm   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Mar 12 2020 10:25am

I live in Texas so being bombarded with fear mongering is everyday thing. If you know what they are doing it's annoying if not you fall into the pit and lose focus on what is real and important.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Mar 12 2020 7:15pm

The ITER timeline is probably realistic due to the scale of the challenges. I'd love to see a working prototype plant in my lifetime.

All other obstacles aside, I have seen it claimed that there simply isn't enough time or skilled workers to build even traditional fusion at rate sufficient to effectively replace fossil fuels. Not even sufficient to replace the existing plants that are due to retire between now and 2050.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Mar 12 2020 8:19pm

Quite possibly true....but its the same issue with wind, solar and Hydro !
But the key word there is “Traditional”. When the gen 4 , modular, and Thorium, type reactors become proven tech ..with cheaper and quicker construction,.and approval restrictions are addressed, the time scales will alter.
Until then, its most likely there will be many new Gas and Coal fueled plants constructed, to supply the demand for essential, reliable base load.
ITER committed to a particular technology path to Fusion many years ago,..they had to , knowing the likely time line and how vital Fusion will be in the future.
One top ITER spokesperson actually admitted that it is likely that Science and technology may well superceed the ITER project before it is completed, but as Fusion Energy will be essential in the future , it is necessary to explore all options to develop a commercial system ,..almoat at any cost !
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Mar 13 2020 8:33am

Yes, it is an expensive gamble but one worth taking IMO due to the huge potential payoff. The chance of a dead end or two is part of R&D.

Next gen nuclear may be quicker/cheaper to build but that's a) to be established yet and b) not ready yet, so you need to factor in the additional delay.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Mar 13 2020 8:42am

Pretty sure we can do both. Existing nuclear nations are well placed to do this. Nations who don't already have this complex, expensive industrial ecosystem in place would be better placed exploiting the zero emissions options they already have (batteries, pumped hydro, solar, wind).

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Mar 13 2020 11:15am

Hillhater wrote:
Mar 12 2020 8:19pm
Quite possibly true....but its the same issue with wind, solar and Hydro !
Well, except that we are actually doing it.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING » Mar 13 2020 4:42pm

Fusion also has had it's funding plundered for years to feed other research topics more likely to return investments- solar PV is one. Personally, I bank on Thorium-based LFTR reactors being our meal ticket, and so does India. HH also brought up cheaper and quicker construction and that's an unspoken point- many of these plants are basically all custom-built with only the rules and laws around them being the standardization. The American government and FERC has kicked around standardizing plants for decades as a means to cheapening nuke.
jonescg wrote:
Mar 13 2020 8:42am
Pretty sure we can do both. Existing nuclear nations are well placed to do this. Nations who don't already have this complex, expensive industrial ecosystem in place would be better placed exploiting the zero emissions options they already have (batteries, pumped hydro, solar, wind).
Funny enough, I had this discussion with a acquaintance of mine at work today- Africa will reap the benefits of the boom in renewables as they directly support microgrids, but the area that will be the last to benefit will likely be Asia- they just have too much cheap coal and too much infrastructure built to support the Western style of life to cut off from it anytime soon.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Mar 13 2020 5:46pm

CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING wrote:
Mar 13 2020 4:42pm
Fusion also has had it's funding plundered for years to feed other research topics more likely to return investments- solar PV is one. Personally, I bank on Thorium-based LFTR reactors being our meal ticket, and so does India. HH also brought up cheaper and quicker construction and that's an unspoken point- many of these plants are basically all custom-built with only the rules and laws around them being the standardization.
Agree with research into LFTR - but they are not quite ready for prime time. I'd put my money on small modular reactors as a short term solution. Order one, have it shipped to your facility, plop it in a hole, connect it up and use it. In ten years when it needs to be refueled - ship it back. The factory replaces the fuel and ships it back to you.
Funny enough, I had this discussion with a acquaintance of mine at work today- Africa will reap the benefits of the boom in renewables as they directly support microgrids. . .
Might be true. The technology isn't quite there yet but it's getting closer.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING » Mar 14 2020 6:39pm

JackFlorey wrote:
Mar 13 2020 5:46pm
CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING wrote:
Mar 13 2020 4:42pm
Fusion also has had it's funding plundered for years to feed other research topics more likely to return investments- solar PV is one. Personally, I bank on Thorium-based LFTR reactors being our meal ticket, and so does India. HH also brought up cheaper and quicker construction and that's an unspoken point- many of these plants are basically all custom-built with only the rules and laws around them being the standardization.
Agree with research into LFTR - but they are not quite ready for prime time. I'd put my money on small modular reactors as a short term solution. Order one, have it shipped to your facility, plop it in a hole, connect it up and use it. In ten years when it needs to be refueled - ship it back. The factory replaces the fuel and ships it back to you.
Yeah, the pebble beds can do that and it's pretty trick- real efficient too, you can make a plant as small as 4KW if you want. As for the LFTR, I know their big problem was making coolant pipes that were flexible enough to deal with the expanding nature of the "tank" while being tough enough for the flouride; UC Berkley in the 60s used graphite and they had to replace them all the time. Not sure if they fixed the issue yet.
Funny enough, I had this discussion with a acquaintance of mine at work today- Africa will reap the benefits of the boom in renewables as they directly support microgrids. . .
Might be true. The technology isn't quite there yet but it's getting closer.
Naw, the microgrids are already there; it's just startup costs. Africa is BIG- the Sahara is nearly the size of the US- and it'll be a long time before large swaths of it are as connected as American cities are. But thanks to things like Starlink and WISP it might not *need* to be.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Mar 14 2020 11:14pm

CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING wrote:
Mar 14 2020 6:39pm
Yeah, the pebble beds can do that and it's pretty trick- real efficient too, you can make a plant as small as 4KW if you want.
I assume you meant 4MW! Yes, that's a good feature - especially if you can use the waste heat. That makes town-sized power plants a possibility.
Naw, the microgrids are already there; it's just startup costs.
Off-grid systems are there and are used widely in Africa. But the coordination of all of them into a larger grid (or even a path to expansion to a larger grid) isn't really there yet. That's going to take some high level work that hasn't been done yet.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Mar 15 2020 5:25am

JackFlorey wrote:
Mar 13 2020 11:15am
Hillhater wrote:
Mar 12 2020 8:19pm
Quite possibly true....but its the same issue with wind, solar and Hydro !
Well, except that we are actually doing it.
Sure we are,..... but that does not mean we will be able to build and install enough to replace all the ff power generation by 2050
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Mar 15 2020 9:46pm

Hillhater wrote:
Mar 15 2020 5:25am
Sure we are,..... but that does not mean we will be able to build and install enough to replace all the ff power generation by 2050
Agreed. But we can replace 75% of it - and save 3/4 of our natural gas for future needs (and for motor fuel, which is a much more important use of it.) And if in the meantime we can get nuclear up and running in a big way, that would get us to 100% non-fossil sources by 2050.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Mar 16 2020 12:35am

Its not that easy.
60-80% of the power needed is continuous, reliable, “Base Load” , which even the most advanced RE powered industrialised countries have realised cannot come from Wind, solar , hydro, or any combination of them with batteries or pumps etc..
You have got to have a source that you can depend on to be available anytime to throw the switch.
Currently that is FF or Nuclear.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Mar 16 2020 1:26am

Hillhater wrote:
Mar 16 2020 12:35am
Its not that easy.
60-80% of the power needed is continuous, reliable, “Base Load” , which even the most advanced RE powered industrialised countries have realised cannot come from Wind, solar , hydro, or any combination of them with batteries or pumps etc..
You have got to have a source that you can depend on to be available anytime to throw the switch.
Currently that is FF or Nuclear.
I assume what you mean is there needs to be a certain amount of synchronous inertia on the grid. That inertia can be supplied by hydro (pumped or regular) and synchronous condensers. Battery packs and inverters are now starting to supply some inertia too, although not nearly as much, and for shorter periods.

"Baseload" is such a misnomer. It's not base (it's just a variable minimum level of supply) and it's not a load (it's supposed to be referring to a generator). Sure, said generator is generating in order to service some load.
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