Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Jan 29, 2018 12:35 pm

wineboyrider wrote:
Jan 28, 2018 7:31 pm
The desert southwest USA has the same problems. Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and California are running out of water.
Yep. And as it gets warmer, that's just going to get worse. San Diego just opened its first desalinator; it now supplies 7% of San Diego's water. Look for more of these as the water dries up.
--bill von

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 29, 2018 1:10 pm

It's also a population problem. And there will eventually have to be a shift in which crops are best to spend our irrigation on.
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https://californiawaterblog.com/2015/04 ... nia-crops/
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Jan 29, 2018 1:25 pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Jan 29, 2018 1:10 pm
It's also a population problem.
Not really, not when it comes to water use. Most of that water goes to agriculture - and most of that agriculture leaves the region. In the winter, more than 70% of the produce grown in the Central Valley and El Centro leaves the California/Arizona area. It gets shipped as far as Maine and Hawaii.

In the winter there aren't many places in the US that can grow produce at those scales.

However, agreed as to the crop shift. Growing less feed for cattle helps a lot, as does avoiding water-intensive crops like almonds.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 29, 2018 1:42 pm

If there were less people eating food in Maine and Hawaii, Cali would need less water. It's a global market as you say and increased world population will lead to increased world water demand.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Chalo » Jan 29, 2018 2:14 pm

There's no question that the population problem is the core of our resource, climate, and environmental problems. If we can't get control of it, nothing else will matter. If we do get control of it, everything else matters a lot less.

But nobody wants to talk about the topics we need to discuss-- one child limits, baby licenses, vasectomies by default. It's like people somehow believe the worst possible thing you could do to the world and future generations is their sacred right and duty. Really, the thing we need the most of all is a lot fewer of us-- including zero more of the idiots who think they should spray their idiot spawn all over the place.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Jan 29, 2018 2:30 pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Jan 29, 2018 1:42 pm
If there were less people eating food in Maine and Hawaii, Cali would need less water. It's a global market as you say and increased world population will lead to increased world water demand.
Ah, if you mean global population, then I agree.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Jan 29, 2018 5:15 pm

Punx0r wrote:
Jan 29, 2018 11:18 am
If someone with the right credentials and full knowledge ....bla,bla, bla,...
...... Just saying "Well, I don't buy it" from your armchair doesn't cut it as proper criticism.
Its obvious from your comments that you have not looked at the facts behind this BOM situation.
As such , your "word salad" is a waste of screen space.
I shall continue to treat BOM records and data as an unreliable source.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Jan 29, 2018 6:02 pm

See? You asked me to explain to you in detail why I thought your assertions on this BOM date being unreliable, but it wouldn't have mattered what I'd said, you already "knew" the "facts", your mind was made up and would remain so. It was only ever just a bluff to give the impression you are open-minded and receptive to new information.

Very glad I didn't waste a couple of hours providing the fully-referenced critique of those tabloid articles you demanded!

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 29, 2018 6:16 pm

California water video.
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https://youtu.be/YTeRc-41EeE
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by TheBeastie » Jan 29, 2018 9:23 pm

Despite the articles and the BOM even admitting to the problem and claiming they are coming up with ways to mitigate the problem its amazing how some people just turn away from the facts.
Here is the video again, a way to see this video is tribal belief mechanisms vs logic/facts
https://youtu.be/S74C-XF9kYY
This screenshot at this point is my favorite bit, the increase bubble shield against facts.
2018-01-30 (1).png
2018-01-30 (1).png (139.11 KiB) Viewed 324 times
I happened to meet someone who had quit the BOM about 6 months ago and he basically said it has a problem with a lot of the staff being political climate quasi-nut jobs. He didn't want to go into details because I think he was very conscious of what he might get caught saying but it looked like he wanted to unload a bunch of dirty secrets, as he looked quite frustrated.

So Victoria had a big blackout on Sunday/Saturday, peak were 50,000 homes, so probably 150,000 people if its 3 ppl per home? State head Daniel Andrews said basically its everyone else's fault but his, his main argument being that Jeff Kennet privatized the electricity sector 25 years ago in Victoria and despite being no problems until now its not his fault.
I am kind of surprised we had any problems, I figured the shutdown of all the major car manufacturing in Victoria and SA would have freed up alot of electricity, but I think the problem of just an ever-increasing immigration/population of the city is just too much as well as losing the Hazelwood power-station last year because Daniel Andrews believed he could bring in a few extra million by tripling the coal royalty price of the Hazelwood power-station owners and the Hazelwood owners basically closing it 1 year to the day of the price increase annoucement.
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/victo ... ocymk.html
The creeping death effect of increasing the cost of baseload electricity makes a ripple effect of making everything more dodgy, no one wants to support poles and wires etc as it just piles on more costs to consumers who are already annoyed about electricity prices.
In a more non-socialist society?, those who want supposedly green energy could pay the upfront costs of a very large solar roof and battery storage. And everyone else can just stick to more affordable fossil fuel grid until the Bill Gates nuclear reactor or whatever comes along.

Melbourne blackouts: system buckled under ‘intense’ demand
BLACKOUTS plagued more than 60,000 homes statewide at the weekend despite Victorians being slugged hundreds of dollars a year in fees to maintain the electricity network.

The average household will pay from $404 to $673 in tariffs for poles and wires this year, a sum that can account for 20 to 40 per cent of a retail bill.

The charges are levied to pay for network maintenance and to ensure “a safe and reliable electricity supply”.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victor ... 22a2eb76a2

I guess the thing I want to point out is that with Renewable energy, its dangerous to dumb governments/democratic societies where people see a big windfarm picture saying "this is 1,000MW, it creates power cheaper than coal" wind farm facebook memes and with the government heads being no smarter assume it can virtually provide 1000MW 24/7.
The window I have been able to see into Daniel Andrews mind in terms of energy or business savviness is on an early teenagers intelligence level.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/n ... SHeadlines
Victoria energy crisis: Scope for power compensation, Andrews says

Sweltering conditions have caused energy chaos across Victoria as more than 17,000 homes remain without power, blackouts expected to continue until late Monday.

But the state government has been quick to stress issues with poles, wires and substations are responsible for the outages, rather than a supply issue.

“There were distribution and localised network problems in individual neighbourhoods,” Premier Daniel Andrews said on Monday.

There were nearly 50,000 properties in Victoria without power at one point on Sunday, as temperatures hit the high 30s in Melbourne.

Hot conditions have tested the Victorian power system. Picture: Mark Stewart.
About 15,760 properties serviced by distributor United Energy’s network were still without power as of 9am Monday, while 275 were without power in the CitiPower and Powercor networks and 1200 in Ausnet’s network. Jemena said no outages were present in its network, but about 1050 of the properties were without power at 9:30pm on Sunday.

Mr Andrews said there could be scope for compensation.

“We are looking at all available means to compel companies to compensate people.”

A spokesman for United Energy, CitiPower and Powercor said fuse faults at their substations were to blame for the majority of outages, the demand for power increasing as temperatures soared into the 40s across the state.

“The prolonged high temperatures and humidity through the weekend significantly increased electricity demand at many locations across the network,” the spokesman said.

“Due to the large volume of faults, in some cases there may be extended restoration times with power in some areas likely to be affected until this evening.”

A slow-moving cool change is set to bring relief later on Monday and arrive in Melbourne sometime between 3pm and 4pm, with authorities warning the very young, elderly and chronically ill are most at risk of being affected by the conditions.

“They can’t regulate their temperature as well, (and) a lot of people don’t know that they’re getting dehydrated and they get dehydrated very quickly,” State health commander Paul Holman said.

“The homeless, people outside, just make sure if you see someone in trouble, check to see if they’re OK.

“If they need an ambulance, call triple-zero.”

People, dogs, and horses cool off at Altona dog beach after a hot night. Picture: Nicole Garmston.
People, dogs, and horses cool off at Altona dog beach after a hot night. Picture: Nicole Garmston.
Public Transport Victoria says it has been dousing swelling tram tracks with water in Melbourne and plans to implement speed restrictions for some regional train services.

The predicted cool change won’t reach Victoria’s southeast until early Tuesday while temperatures in the northeast are forecast to remain in the low 30s until Wednesday.
Victorian Black/power-price article2
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/busine ... f3663aef48
Also points out electricity prices for Victoria have doubled since a year ago.
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Wholesale energy prices double in a year in Victoria and South Australia

Average wholesale energy prices in Victoria and South Australia have more than doubled since this time last year, as experts warn that blackouts and supply issues are likely to increase as state governments chase ­aggressive ­renewable energy ­targets.

More than 2000 Victorian households remained without power yesterday after two days of heat triggered equipment failures and blackouts, opening up distributors to compensation claims.

The mass outages affected more than 60,000 residents, some of whom were cut off for more than 28 hours.

The outages struck as new data showed the average wholesale energy price in Victoria climbed to $139 this month, up from $62 in January last year. In South Australia, the wholesale average price for January climbed to almost $170, up from $84 a year ago, whereas prices fell in NSW and Queensland to about $75.

The pricing data has angered energy experts, who say blackouts and supply ­issues are likely to increase and prices are likely to rise as the Victorian and South Australian governments pursue renewable energy targets without prioritising power sources that can supply baseload power.

READ MORE
Battery solution too costly
Grattan Institute energy ­director Tony Wood said Sunday’s and Monday’s blackouts and high pricing showed that the state had botched its energy transition program by allowing baseload power sources — such as the Hazelwood power station — to be replaced by renewables, which delivered intermittent power.

“We’re dealing with a complex transition and it hasn’t been ­managed very well so far,” Mr Wood said. “That’s why we’ve seen local outages and high prices on the weekend, and that’s the reason why wholesale prices are substantially higher this year than last year.

“It’s a reflection of a failed policy. We’re transitioning away from centralised, cheap but dirty power stations, but we’re not ­replacing these stations with sources that are just as stable.”


The Andrews government last year broke away from other states and territories by instituting its own Victorian Renewable Energy Target, with a plan for renewables to power 40 per cent of the state’s energy needs by 2025.

Mr Wood said the energy supply could get patchier and the state could emerge as a net importer of electricity as the government replaced coal-fired power stations with solar and wind and other intermittent power sources, which did not fire 24 hours a day.

Federal Energy Minister Josh Frydenberg confirmed that the weekend power outages were the result of distribution rather than supply issues, but said the state government needed to do more to boost reliability.

He urged Victorian Premier Daniel ­Andrews to rethink the ­renewable energy target while branding South Australia’s renewables plan an experiment gone “horribly wrong”.

“Reliability standards for networks are set by state governments,” Mr Frydenberg said. “AEMO (Australian Energy Market Operator) have highlighted that supply in Victoria is tight and that is why we have called upon the Andrews government to drop its reckless state-based renewable energy targets and mindless bans on gas.

“Jay Weatherill’s ‘big experiment’ has gone horribly wrong. South Australia has the highest prices and the least stable energy system in the country and, despite the bravado in the lead-up to summer, their energy problems remain. Just a couple of weeks ago, South Australia’s prices reached $14,200 a megawatt hour, while at the same time they were $89 a MWh in NSW and $85 MWh in Queensland.

“The wind turbines, which can produce 100 per cent of energy on one day and zero on another, were not blowing when needed most, providing less than 5 per cent of power and Jay Weatherill’s big battery less than 1 per cent.”

Australian Power Project chief executive Nathan Vass warned that Victoria’s energy supply with a larger proportion of renewables likely would have buckled under conditions such as those of Sunday night.

“Batteries and solar would not have saved Victoria as over 17,000 Victorians had no power throughout the night, when the sun isn’t shining,” Mr Vass said.

“Pairing renewables with battery storage wouldn’t have done much to alleviate the blackout. By way of example, the Tesla battery facility in South Australia only provides power for an hour to 30,000 homes.”

Release of the wholesale pricing data in South Australia — and data showing South Australia still has the highest prices in the National Electricity Market — prompted state opposition energy spokesman Dan van Holst Pellekaan to savage a claim by Mr Weatherill that his $550 million “self-sufficient” energy plan was producing the lowest power prices in the national market.

“South Australians are furious about the outrageous price of electricity they pay and tired of the Weatherill government’s refusal to accept responsibility,” Mr van Holst Pellekaan said.

SA Energy Minister Tom Koutsantonis said wholesale power prices were “notoriously volatile”. “Since August, wholesale power prices in South Australia have been consistently cheaper than Victoria, and in September and October, SA had the cheapest wholesale prices of mainland states in the National Electricity Market,” he said.

In Victoria, Mr Andrews blamed the outages on the Coalition’s decision to privatise the state’s energy assets in the 1990s. “Fact is, there was more than enough power being generated to meet the demand yesterday — but the private companies and their distribution systems failed yet again,” he said on Twitter.

Mr Andrews said he would push for distributors to pay compensation to households that were left for long periods without power.
Thought I would post the article of Cobalt from Bloomberg, despite so many children digging the crucial lithium cell ingredient up in Africa to help the green movement for a meal a day ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcJ8me22NVs ) , cobalt continues to get more expensive. The DRC in Africa exports about 10 times more cobalt than any other country.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018 ... batteries/

Also, the Australian government is looking at subsidizing electric cars despite the well-studied facts showing that charging an EV anywhere in Australia except for Tasmania (due to hydro) would actually emit more co2 than fossil fuel cars
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/busine ... 0a8ca3a224
To me its really a battle of if they Greens/Left want to subsidize child african mining slavery for cobalt lithium mining.
Last edited by TheBeastie on Jan 30, 2018 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Speed Kills Range, 10mph = 46 miles range, 20mph = 20 miles, 30mph = 8 miles range http://goo.gl/1JNL53
Over Charging Kills ur battery bit.ly/1hzWKl4
Beware of dodgy 18650 cells! youtu.be/eOshOXcSkDA
Consider PAS as your only throttle http://goo.gl/m17J9j
CO2 is core to Photosynthesis https://youtu.be/t5mvDONB6FI
Check out the Bill Gates nuclear reactor https://goo.gl/Rtky9q
10 Square Miles of solar panels = 0.12GW average power! https://goo.gl/Ub1S39

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Jan 30, 2018 1:02 am

TheBeastie wrote:
Jan 29, 2018 9:23 pm
Thought I would post the article of Cobalt from Bloomberg, despite so many children digging the crucial lithium cell ingredient up in Africa to help the green movement for a meal a day ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcJ8me22NVs ) , cobalt continues to get more expensive.
Good! I am glad it's feeding children in Africa. Seems like a win-win.
Also, the Australian government is looking at subsidizing electric cars despite the well-studied facts showing that charging an EV anywhere in Australia except for Tasmania (due to hydro) would actually emit more co2 than fossil fuel cars
A great argument for more solar.

And in today's news:

================================================
Tesla’s giant battery in Australia made around $1 million in just a few days
Jan 29 2018
Electrek

Tesla’s 100MW/ 129MWh Powerpack project in South Australia, the largest in the world for now, has been demonstrating its capacity over the last few weeks since going into operation last month.

But now the system is showing its potential to be highly profitable by making an estimated $1 million AUD (~$800,000 USD) in just a few days.

. . .

The battery demonstrated its capacity for the latter by reacting to a crashed coal plants in milliseconds last month.

But this month, it’s Neoen that is making full use of its Powerpack capacity thanks in part to the volatile Australian energy market and warm temperatures.

The Powerpack system is able to switch from charging to discharging in a fraction of a second, which allows Neoen to take advantage in the large swings in energy prices in the country – especially during high demand periods.

Last week, Tesla’s massive battery was paid up to $1000/MWh to charge itself and now it could have cleared up to $1 million in the last few days. Australia’s Renew Economy reports:

“Another view of this data is presented below, showing the actual price achieved during the buying (charging) and selling (generation). It’s hard to be sure, but it might have made around $1 million over the two days from the wholesale market.”
. . .

Showboating or not, it’s impressing enough people that it quite apparently created a snowball effect for Tesla’s Powerpacks.

Now, this incredible use of the system is really specific to the Australian energy market and there aren’t that many markets out there where it could be so valuable, but they can certainly adapt it at different scales and for different uses.

But in Australia alone, it resulted in several more projects in the works. Tesla was chosen to build another big battery in Australia earlier this month and the company is also working with Neoen in the country for potentially even larger battery projects.

We expect that we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg right now.

https://electrek.co/2018/01/23/tesla-gi ... 1-million/
============================
--bill von

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Jan 30, 2018 1:49 am

.....Now, this incredible use of the system is really specific to the Australian energy market and there aren’t that many markets out there where it could be so valuable, .....
But there will be , when other makets incorporate such a high % of wind and solar as S Austalia has.
...Look out California !
I dont think its very ethical to utilise a tax payer subsidised facility to blatently extort money from those same consumers.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 30, 2018 6:30 am

TheBeastie wrote:
Jan 29, 2018 9:23 pm

So Victoria had a big blackout on Sunday/Saturday, peak were 50,000 homes
So sorry for you that your grid turned into such a mess. A good lesson for all the rest of us. And a wake up call. Big changes are coming in the future. We will need to find a way to live that is much smaller and simpler and ultimately flexible.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by wineboyrider » Jan 30, 2018 10:47 am

Drip irrigation can expand the crops being grown and conserve water. Already in NM there are incentives for farmers to grow with drip irrigation. That's how we grow wine grapes here that are very low water users...
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 30, 2018 11:01 am

billvon wrote:
Jan 30, 2018 1:02 am
TheBeastie wrote:
Jan 29, 2018 9:23 pm
Thought I would post the article of Cobalt from Bloomberg, despite so many children digging the crucial lithium cell ingredient up in Africa to help the green movement for a meal a day ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcJ8me22NVs ) , cobalt continues to get more expensive.
Good! I am glad it's feeding children in Africa. Seems like a win-win.
Wait a minute. Back up. Way up! There are international standards for labor. And this ain't it. Digging with your fingers for a meal while others get rich off your backs with black market spoils is slavery.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Jan 30, 2018 11:09 am

Hillhater wrote:
Jan 30, 2018 1:49 am
.....Now, this incredible use of the system is really specific to the Australian energy market and there aren’t that many markets out there where it could be so valuable, .....
But there will be , when other makets incorporate such a high % of wind and solar as S Austalia has.
You are correct. Batteries are very valuable to grid operators - whether or not the utility uses renewables.
I dont think its very ethical to utilise a tax payer subsidised facility to blatently extort money from those same consumers.
So we should shut down all nuclear power plants?
--bill von

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Jan 30, 2018 11:11 am

sendler2112 wrote:
Jan 30, 2018 11:01 am
Wait a minute. Back up. Way up! There are international standards for labor. And this ain't it. Digging with your fingers for a meal while others get rich off your backs with black market spoils is slavery.
If they are getting paid enough to buy food, then that's not slavery - that's called "a job." If the kids are being abused, then the right solution is to reform that country's labor laws and not abuse the kids - not take away their job (and their food.)

Abuses can be (and have been) fixed. Death from starvation can't be fixed.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Jan 30, 2018 4:55 pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Jan 30, 2018 6:30 am
TheBeastie wrote:
Jan 29, 2018 9:23 pm

So Victoria had a big blackout on Sunday/Saturday, peak were 50,000 homes
So sorry for you that your grid turned into such a mess. A good lesson for all the rest of us. And a wake up call. Big changes are coming in the future. We will need to find a way to live that is much smaller and simpler and ultimately flexible.
Officially, the cause of these widespread blackouts was... "localised overloading causing protection fuses to blow" ..
And the finger pointed at the increased use of A/C systems in the high temperatures experienced at the time.
That may , or may not, be the full story, but one fact that has been highlighted is how much power is needed to keep us cool these days.
On Monday the temp in Melbourne was 32degC and the peak mid day power demand was over 9GW.
On Tuesday, a cold front caused the temp to drop to 18 degC, and the peak power at mid day was only 5.7 GW
Both days were regular working days, so no significant operational factors, but it appears that extra 14degC on Monday coincided with nearly 60% higher power demand !
But that does not excuse the (private) owners of the grid distribution hardware for failing to upgrade and keep pace with demand.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Jan 30, 2018 5:14 pm

billvon wrote:
Jan 30, 2018 11:09 am
..... Batteries are very valuable to grid operators - whether or not the utility uses renewables.
Yes , valuable in as much as they can be huge revenue earners with little operational or maintenance costs.
But, of little value as a useful addition to the utility to improve supply capability.
I dont think its very ethical to utilise a tax payer subsidised facility to blatently extort money from those same consumers.
So we should shut down all nuclear power plants?
[/quote]
Power plants of all types generate usable power, batteries do not .
The claim now for the BigBattery... (originally proposed to smooth out supply by "time shifting" generation peaks from the wind farms and supplying FCAS )...is how useful it is in managing the grid frequency variations.
Which is would be impressive (but expensive) except for the fact that the grid worked perfectly well before the battery was installed.
In reality, the battery is little more than a very effective cash generator for its operators.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Jan 30, 2018 6:18 pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jan 30, 2018 5:14 pm
Yes , valuable in as much as they can be huge revenue earners with little operational or maintenance costs.
But, of little value as a useful addition to the utility to improve supply capability.
??? BYD batteries allowed grid operators in Argentina to increase overall grid capacity by 3% - without any new generation. That's a lot more capacity.

Today batteries provide frequency and voltage stabilization, allowing grid operators to run their plants much closer to their margins without fear of grid collapse. They also provide ramp-rate stabilization, allowing time for fast-startup plants to take over when an existing plant trips off-line. As prices fall they are also starting to provide peak shaving and load shifting, which helps with both renewables and peak loads on conventional grids.
Power plants of all types generate usable power, batteries do not .
There is a ten billion dollar nuclear power plant just down the road from me that provides no usable power.

Heck, transmission lines generate no usable power; in fact they waste power. Are you going to be against them, too?
The claim now for the BigBattery... (originally proposed to smooth out supply by "time shifting" generation peaks from the wind farms and supplying FCAS )...is how useful it is in managing the grid frequency variations. Which is would be impressive (but expensive) except for the fact that the grid worked perfectly well before the battery was installed.
Agreed. It now works better.
In reality, the battery is little more than a very effective cash generator for its operators.
Of course. The utility gets more generation without any new construction, and the battery operator gets paid for providing that service - and customers get more peak power without having to pay for a new power plant. Win-win-win.
--bill von

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by TheBeastie » Jan 30, 2018 11:09 pm

billvon wrote:
Jan 30, 2018 11:11 am
sendler2112 wrote:
Jan 30, 2018 11:01 am
Wait a minute. Back up. Way up! There are international standards for labor. And this ain't it. Digging with your fingers for a meal while others get rich off your backs with black market spoils is slavery.
If they are getting paid enough to buy food, then that's not slavery - that's called "a job." If the kids are being abused, then the right solution is to reform that country's labor laws and not abuse the kids - not take away their job (and their food.)

Abuses can be (and have been) fixed. Death from starvation can't be fixed.
If you watch the video, they state they would be lucky to get a meal a day out of the work.
If these were Aussie miners working there it would be $150k a year just to stand there and watch them dig a hole as a general safety observer etc.
And if people were getting grapefruit sized cancers growing out the sides of their necks they would be sued for millions https://youtu.be/JcJ8me22NVs?t=3m48s
If this is as cheap as its going to get for cobalt mining (which it most certainly would have to be) than as the Bloomberg article suggests ( https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018 ... batteries/ ) cobalt-based lithium doesn't have much of a future, especially if its true the battery in the Tesla-Semi EV is 23 tons worth of battery and it is well and truly a failure of human bias to believe anything with cobalt inside it should be subsidized by the taxpayer which seems to be standard fair in a lot of western countries except now for Norway which I guess has come to their senses for what ever reason.

Like the social good now video shows, peoples minds are so vulnerable to bias caused by tribalistic mindframes and I think the cobalt issue is a great example of that, where people are quite happy with the cobalt situation as long as there's a possibility it could lower co2, help Elon Musk or help their favorite political team or push up their stock investments etc.
As Ozzie Zehner would say in his speech the human mind can be like ruthless AI because like Hal9000 AI from Space Odyssey movie where the AI decides to kill the humans on the space station because they're getting in the way of the mission. So much in renewables is the same, I just can't get over the sight of all those Germany solar farms on googlemaps sat-view that cleared away so much forest in the name of the environment...
And the subsidies feed all this corruption, I don't think there has ever been a situation where taxpayers subsidies feed so many immoral-destructive problems.

Look at the chart, DRC averages 10-20 times more cobalt than any other country and it's pretty much slavery hell conditions while everyone cheers Elon Musk like a hero, this is technically where his wealth is coming from because if the batteries aren't remotely affordable and of good performance then there is no business.
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Last edited by TheBeastie on Jan 30, 2018 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Speed Kills Range, 10mph = 46 miles range, 20mph = 20 miles, 30mph = 8 miles range http://goo.gl/1JNL53
Over Charging Kills ur battery bit.ly/1hzWKl4
Beware of dodgy 18650 cells! youtu.be/eOshOXcSkDA
Consider PAS as your only throttle http://goo.gl/m17J9j
CO2 is core to Photosynthesis https://youtu.be/t5mvDONB6FI
Check out the Bill Gates nuclear reactor https://goo.gl/Rtky9q
10 Square Miles of solar panels = 0.12GW average power! https://goo.gl/Ub1S39

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jonescg
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Jan 30, 2018 11:50 pm

Which is pushing battery cell manufacturers to devise formulations which use very little or no cobalt. For stationary applications like grid scale battery storage, lithium iron phosphate or lithium manganese oxide (with appropriate thermal control) is entirely viable.

No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. NMC based cathodes are performing well, and recycling could fill at least 30% of the global demand for battery resources by 2030.

http://closeloop.fi/wp-content/uploads/ ... 170517.pdf for an interesting read on the economics of recycling.

billvon
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Jan 31, 2018 12:40 pm

jonescg wrote:
Jan 30, 2018 11:50 pm
Which is pushing battery cell manufacturers to devise formulations which use very little or no cobalt. For stationary applications like grid scale battery storage, lithium iron phosphate or lithium manganese oxide (with appropriate thermal control) is entirely viable.
Yep. There are half a dozen formulations without cobalt that work quite well. They are not as energy dense, but energy density has been going up across all chemistries, so that will be less and less of an issue.

I hope they don't go that way, though. It's all well and good to say "well, working conditions are terrible there, let's stop using cobalt" - but generally the outcome is that those people lose any income they had, and are even worse off than before. Just letting them die isn't so much better.

A better solution (IMO) is to push the companies mining minerals (not just cobalt) to treat their workers better. That, historically, has a much better track record than not using minerals. And given that the price of cobalt is going up, there is money to make that happen.
--bill von

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Feb 04, 2018 6:34 pm

The latest scheme to prop up S Australias flimsey power system is a $800m, "Virtual Power Station".
Dreamt up with the assistance of Mr Musk who is reported to supply 25,000 solar systems with power wall batteries to be installed, free of charge, on Public Housing properties over the next 2 years.
This is being promoted as providing cheaper power for low income public housing tennants and also act as a 125 MW "Virtual Power Station connected to the state grid.
Simple maths deduces that these will be 5kW solar systems with presumably the 13kWh powerwall units, which should be able to supply the equivalent of 25kWh per day each...when the sun shines !
Once the Public housing scheme has been completed , a further 25,000 similar systems will be offered to private owners to join the "VPS " system......but they will have to be purchaced by the owners ! (Much like any other commercial solar package ?)
A best case result , after 2 years and $800m, would be to take 25,000 consumers off the grid supply , equivalent to adding 25 MW of 'virtual power" generating capacity !
Unlike the SA Govmt, I have ignored the additional 25,000 "private" systems , as that is no different to anything that is not already available to anyone who wants to install solar today....IE,.. Its "Situation Normal". !
....but even including that its just another 25MW capacity after 4 years. :roll:
Need i say, there is a State Election due in the coming few months !!
http://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-to-bui ... lia-44339/
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Feb 04, 2018 10:06 pm

And in the interest of balance - the SA Liberal party is proposing the same thing - 40,000 homes with batteries and solar, but a $2500 rebate to make it happen. More spend, less homes.

SA Best is going to announce an energy policy soon too. Seems like renewable energy is the winner though.

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