Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
cricketo   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Dec 28 2018 11:37am

sendler2112 wrote:
Dec 28 2018 10:56am
Tax burdens become unbearable, natural resources become depleted, environments become polluted, and conquered peoples become restless. At its height, each civilization appears stable and invincible. Yet it is just at this moment of triumph that it is vulnerable to external enemies and internal discord. Debt can no longer be repaid. Conquered peoples revolt. A natural disaster breaks open the façade of stability and control.
Gobbment will come for us all! Stock up on MREs, ammo and toilet paper while you can!

sendler2112   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Dec 28 2018 11:45am

cricketo wrote:
Dec 28 2018 11:37am
Gobbment will come for us all! Stock up on MREs, ammo and toilet paper while you can!
Just wondering if you bother viewing any of the information I am posting here?

cricketo   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Dec 28 2018 12:10pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Dec 28 2018 11:45am
Just wondering if you bother viewing any of the information I am posting here?
Yes, some. Just not a fan of abstract alarmism.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Dec 28 2018 12:19pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Dec 28 2018 10:56am
Richard Heinberg's latest essay:
[snip]
It can be a mistake to generalize past civilization behavior to future civilizations. There are fundamental changes (access to information, access to energy, lifespan) that have fundamentally changed the shape and trajectories of civilizations - and will continue to do so.

That's not to say that there are no lessons from the past worth learning. But I find it is pretty much always wrong to say "we never found a solution to X in the past, therefore we never will."
--bill von

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Dec 28 2018 12:23pm

The most essential and time dense first bit of information that anyone that wants to discuss new energy and the future needs to understand is the Hagens lecture.
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https://youtu.be/YUSpsT6Oqrg
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cricketo   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Dec 28 2018 2:45pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Dec 28 2018 12:23pm
anyone that wants to discuss new energy and the future needs to understand
Is it going to be on the test ?

sendler2112   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Dec 28 2018 2:57pm

All I can do is to post important information . If people refuse to access it there is nothing I can do about that. Just have to keep trying.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Dec 28 2018 3:22pm

cricketo wrote:
Dec 28 2018 2:45pm
sendler2112 wrote:
Dec 28 2018 12:23pm
anyone that wants to discuss new energy and the future needs to understand
Is it going to be on the test ?
No. ! Its continuous assesment
All your comments and input reflect your understanding of the subjects.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

cricketo   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Dec 28 2018 4:03pm

Hillhater wrote:
Dec 28 2018 3:22pm

No. ! Its continuous assesment
All your comments and input reflect your understanding of the subjects.
Cool! Now... what's the latest with long-term energy storage ? Hydrogen batteries ? Compressed air ? I want to build something instead of talking about it :)

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Dec 28 2018 10:24pm

cricketo wrote:
Dec 28 2018 4:03pm
.. what's the latest with long-term energy storage ? Hydrogen batteries ? Compressed air ? I want to build something instead of talking about it :)
The latest ? , best, Cheapest ,..take your pick
But for long term storage of large amounts of energy, Uranium takes some beating.!
But growing trees and storing wood for timber combustion is certainly much easier !! :wink:
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Chalo » Dec 29 2018 2:31am

Hillhater wrote:
Dec 28 2018 10:24pm
But for very, very long term storage of large amounts of energy persistent toxic and highly radioactive waste, Uranium takes some beating.!
Fixed that for you.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Dec 29 2018 7:24am

Actually, whilst STORING energy in the form of uranium ore, it is prety benign.
.....its only when you frok with it to release the energy that you have to wear foil undies !
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

cricketo   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Jan 04 2019 6:08pm

Hillhater wrote:
Dec 29 2018 7:24am
Actually, whilst STORING energy in the form of uranium ore, it is prety benign.
Is it still storage considering we can't replenish it once used ?

In other news...
Ethereum mining consumes a quarter to half of what Bitcoin mining does, but that still means that for most of 2018 it was using roughly as much electricity as Iceland. Indeed, the typical Ethereum transaction gobbles more power than an average U.S. household uses in a day. "That's just a huge waste of resources, even if you don't believe that pollution and carbon dioxide are an issue. There are real consumers -- real people -- whose need for electricity is being displaced by this stuff," says Vitalik Buterin, the 24-year-old Russian-Canadian computer scientist who invented Ethereum when he was just 18.
Which proves what you guys were saying all along - we can't possibly keep up with ridiculous waste of energy humans are used to by going to renewables...

sendler2112   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 05 2019 6:20pm

Your assertion is that the US government is favoring coal to keep solar and wind out of the market. But this is interesting. USA federal subsidies for electrical production by source. This is from 2007 but I will try to find something newer. But shows that the USA was very early on trying to pay the way for wind and solar to take off. Solar and wind each recieved 15 times as much incentive as nuclear and 55 times as much as coal.
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"For subsidies related to electricity production, EIA data shows that solar energy was subsidized at $24.34 per megawatt hour and wind at $23.37 per megawatt hour for electricity generated in 2007. By contrast, coal received 44 cents, natural gas and petroleum received 25 cents, hydroelectric power 67 cents, and nuclear power $1.59 per megawatt hour."
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https://www.instituteforenergyresearch. ... ies-study/
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Image
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Here are subsidy charts from 2010 to 2016. Again, solar has been highly favored above all other production methods. My state also offers home solar a big incentive of 30% rebate in addition to the 25% federal tax refund and also forces the utility to buy your excess at the "meter runs backwards" rate for up to 125% of your usage. Which is a big loss for the electric utility provider to have to buy my intermittent electricity at $0.10/ kWH when the average wholesale price is $0.04 for a reliable, guaranteed supply. The USA has done a great job of pushing solar and wind over coal.
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca ... 1c5d98128c
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Image
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cricketo   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Jan 06 2019 12:22pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Jan 05 2019 6:20pm
Your assertion is that the US government is favoring coal to keep solar and wind out of the market. But this is interesting. USA federal subsidies for electrical production by source. This is from 2007 but I will try to find something newer. But shows that the USA was very early on trying to pay the way for wind and solar to take off. Solar and wind each recieved 15 times as much incentive as nuclear and 55 times as much as coal.
So if I give you a dollar, and next day I give you another dollar... OMG!, I just doubled the amount of money I gave you!

It is a common tactic of manipulative debate to resort to relative numbers when favorable, and to absolute numbers otherwise. However, in full faith one is expected to provide both relative and absolute numbers, to establish the magnitude for the comparison.
That is if the playing field was even. In this case though, you're comparing massive industries that have been around for 100+ years, have been subsidized for almost a hundred years, and have caused enormous amount of pollution with well established negative side-effects to a relatively new, relatively small industry that is meant to cleanup the mess others have created. The question then becomes why those old industries are getting any subsidies at all, instead of being massively taxed.

For the last three years, the top three domestic coal companies have consistently reported record profits. Peabody Energy, the largest private-sector coal company, posted record revenue in the year of 2008, with a 45% increase in profits from the 2007 year. Despite an uncertain economy, Peabody’s profits tripled in the first quarter of 2009. Arch Coal Inc., the third largest producer, had a net income of $354.3 million in 2008, double their income of 2007. Yet the government continues to hand out billions in tax breaks and subsidies (see chart).

Tax Credits $27 billion
Section 29 Credit since 2002 $11 billion
Coal R&D 1950-2003 $31 billion
Clean Coal Technology R&D since 1986 $2.9 billion
TOTAL $72 billion
https://www.taxpayer.net/energy-natural ... subsidies/

Image

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environm ... -subsidies

sendler2112   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 06 2019 12:44pm

The payback from investment comes from actual production. Which for solar in the USA has been incentivised 50x that of coal. Which totally blows the myth that solar is somehow being arbitrarily held back in favor of coal. These are just the incentives at the federal level. NY State offers a futher matching amount for solar.

cricketo   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Jan 06 2019 1:07pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Jan 06 2019 12:44pm
The payback from investment comes from actual production. Which for solar in the USA has been incentivised 50x that of coal. Which totally blows the myth that solar is somehow being arbitrarily held back in favor of coal. These are just the incentives at the federal level. NY State offers a futher matching amount for solar.
I could perhaps agree that the wording may not be all that great, but the barrier to enter is very high, and without active support it is nearly impossible for solar to take off.

As for payback, again... if you don't pay for taking out your trash ever, you can save a lot of money in your lifetime. Your children, or whoever else is going to take over your property will have to pay quite a bit to clean that up. That's the model that coal has operated for a century now. When you talk about solar being incentivized a lot more than coal, please also count all historic incentives and indirect subsidies, not just the latest figures.

Punx0r   10 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Jan 06 2019 3:24pm

Peabody did go bankrupt in 2016 :wink:

cricketo   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Jan 06 2019 4:06pm

Punx0r wrote:
Jan 06 2019 3:24pm
Peabody did go bankrupt in 2016 :wink:
The company emerged from bankruptcy on April 3, 2017 and started trading on NYSE with a ticker symbol BTU.

Peabody ranked at No. 491 on the Fortune 500 list released in 2018.
In November 2016, the day after Donald Trump won US presidential election, shares of Peabody Energy surged more than 50 percent.[38][39] On April 3, 2017 it emerged from bankruptcy and started trading on the NYSE with a ticker symbol of BTU.[16] In October 2017, a judge ruled that Peabody Energy's bankruptcy protected it from "global-warming lawsuits brought by California coastal communities [in July 2017] against fossil-fuel companies."[40]

On December 3rd Peabody completed its purchase of the Shoal Creek Seaborne metallurgical coal mine from private coal producer Drummond Company, Inc. for $387 million.[41]
Now here is the best part...
Peabody has been an important actor in organized climate change denial. Until 2015, Peabody had claimed that global warming isn't a threat and emitting carbon dioxide is beneficial instead of being dangerous. The company also funded at least two dozen climate change denial organizations and front groups such as the George C. Marshall Institute, the Institute for Energy Research, Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow, and the Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change as well as scientists being famous for their contrarian opinions, among them Willie Soon, Richard Lindzen and Roy Spencer.[80] Nick Surgey, director of research for the Center for Media and Democracy, commented on the sheer scale of Peabody's funding activities: "We expected to see some denial money, but it looks like Peabody is the treasury for a very substantial part of the climate denial movement."[80][75] Peabody plans to continue to oppose the Clean Power Plan during its bankruptcy.[81]

billvon   1 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Jan 06 2019 5:07pm

cricketo wrote:
Jan 06 2019 4:06pm
Peabody has been an important actor in organized climate change denial. . . .Nick Surgey, director of research for the Center for Media and Democracy, commented on the sheer scale of Peabody's funding activities: "We expected to see some denial money, but it looks like Peabody is the treasury for a very substantial part of the climate denial movement."
Yep. Climate change denial is very big money.

Follow the money.
--bill von

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Jan 06 2019 5:32pm

billvon wrote:
Jan 06 2019 5:07pm
Yep. Climate change denial is very big money...
As is Climate Alarmism/AGW also big money.

Rememer, the whole Climate game is not about pollution, emmissions , or renewable energy sources,..
Its all about money, redistribution of wealth and breaking the current economic system ..
As repeated stated by the UN.!
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

cricketo   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Jan 06 2019 5:56pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jan 06 2019 5:32pm
Its all about money, redistribution of wealth and breaking the current economic system ..
As repeated stated by the UN.!
Yup! UN troops are coming and are going to put us all in FEMA camps! Are you sure you're not a conservative American ?

billvon   1 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Jan 06 2019 6:26pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jan 06 2019 5:32pm
billvon wrote:
Jan 06 2019 5:07pm
Yep. Climate change denial is very big money...
As is Climate Alarmism/AGW also big money.
I always get a chuckle out of that image. That the rich fatcat grad students at CU Boulder and NCAR are laughing all the way to the bank and lighting their cigars with $100 bills while the poor, penniless Exxon executives just try to make enough to feed their families.

Heck, I bet there are some FOX viewers who actually believe something like that.
--bill von

cricketo   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Jan 06 2019 7:43pm

billvon wrote:
Jan 06 2019 6:26pm
I always get a chuckle out of that image. That the rich fatcat grad students at CU Boulder and NCAR are laughing all the way to the bank and lighting their cigars with $100 bills while the poor, penniless Exxon executives just try to make enough to feed their families.

Heck, I bet there are some FOX viewers who actually believe something like that.
:bigthumb:

Punx0r   10 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Jan 07 2019 3:20am

cricketo wrote:
Jan 06 2019 4:06pm
In November 2016, the day after Donald Trump won US presidential election, shares of Peabody Energy surged more than 50 percent.[38][39] On April 3, 2017 it emerged from bankruptcy and started trading on the NYSE with a ticker symbol of BTU.[16] In October 2017, a judge ruled that Peabody Energy's bankruptcy protected it from "global-warming lawsuits brought by California coastal communities [in July 2017] against fossil-fuel companies."[40]
Boo! I didn't realise it had risen like a dirty phoenix.

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