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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 1:34pm
by billvon
Cephalotus wrote:
Feb 05 2019 10:22am
"...The final 336-page document agreed by the coal commission, seen by the Guardian, shows Germany plans to reduce its 42.6GW of coal power capacity to about 30GW by 2022, falling to around 17GW by 2030. The deal will be formally published next Friday..."
Great idea.
. . . . parallel to shutting down the last nukes by 2022.
Bad idea. Those plants are carbon-free and they are already built. If you care about climate change it's nuts to shut them down.

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 2:12pm
by Chalo
billvon wrote:
Feb 05 2019 1:34pm
Bad idea. Those plants are carbon-free and they are already built. If you care about climate change it's nuts to shut them down.
Yeah, go ahead and ship the waste actinides to billvon's place. Since they're carbon-free and all.

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 2:18pm
by billvon
Chalo wrote:
Feb 05 2019 2:12pm
Yeah, go ahead and ship the waste actinides to billvon's place. Since they're carbon-free and all.
Much rather have the waste from a nuclear power plant than the waste from a coal power plant. So I'll take the nuclear waste from the power I use; you take the coal waste from the power you use. Then we'll both be happy.

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 3:07pm
by Dauntless
billvon wrote:
Feb 05 2019 2:18pm
Much rather have the waste from a nuclear power plant than the waste from a coal power plant. So I'll take the nuclear waste from the power I use; you take the coal waste from the power you use. Then we'll both be happy.
No you won't. Why do you say these things? Do you know they USE coal ash? What is radioactive waste good for desides destroying? Which I suppose is why you feel kinship for it. . . .

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 4:03pm
by Hillhater
jonescg wrote:
Feb 05 2019 7:25am
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 05 2019 5:02am

3...✖️...Unproven theory, unsupported by science and whose predictions have failed to support the theory.
frock seriously man?
Yes...seriously !
If you cannot see the flaws in the CAGW theory, or understand the significance of the faild predictions,..
Then you are not seriously looking at the issue.

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 4:11pm
by billvon
Dauntless wrote:
Feb 05 2019 3:07pm
No you won't.
I will be very happy. I generate all my own power.

But let's say I didn't. How much electrical power would I use as an average American? About 630 megawatt-hours over the course of my life. That represents about 3 ounces of U-235. Let's say that after enrichment percentages and irradiation of fuel assemblies that results in 100 ounces of nuclear waste. Vitrify it, bury it 20 feet deep in the backyard - I am happy.
Do you know they USE coal ash?
Even better! Do you know they USE nuclear waste to recycle into new fuel? Google MOX.

In any case, I am going to be very happy to deal with handling the result of burning 3 ounces of uranium, vs the result of burning 118 metric tons of coal. But if Chalo really likes that fly and bottom ash, he can have it.

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 4:22pm
by sendler2112
It makes no sense to shutter nuclear reactors that are already built and running well within their design life. All of the sunk costs are already occurred and we need more electricity to go with a complete energy conversion. Not less. If we don't want to build any more from now on, or wait until Gen IV, that is a different question.
.
"Over the past four decades, the entire industry has produced about 62,500 metric tons of used nuclear fuel. If used fuel assemblies were stacked end-to-end and side-by-side, this would cover a football field about seven yards deep."

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 4:32pm
by Hillhater
sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 05 2019 4:22pm
It makes no sense to shutter nuclear reactors that are already built and running well within their design life. ...."
Since when did sensible decisions become part of a political agenda ? :roll:

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 5:46pm
by jonescg
jimw1960 wrote:
Feb 05 2019 9:22am
jonescg wrote:
Feb 05 2019 7:25am

frock seriously man?
He's one of the holdout deniers who gets his science information for right-wing political sites and conspiracy theory propagandists. I don't think he'll ever admit the truth because his political mindset and world view blocks any contradictory new information.
Especially considering he's been hating on Tesla for two or three years now as they keep on demonstrably kicking goals. I mean at some point you would have to admit they did it right.

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 6:08pm
by billvon
sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 05 2019 4:22pm
It makes no sense to shutter nuclear reactors that are already built and running well within their design life. All of the sunk costs are already occurred . . .
Agreed. The money's been spent, and that's a lot of carbon-free energy to be throwing away.

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 6:09pm
by billvon
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 05 2019 4:03pm
If you cannot see the flaws in the CAGW theory, or understand the significance of the faild predictions,..
You are the only one talking about CAGW. It's your strawman, not ours.

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 6:40pm
by Punx0r
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 05 2019 7:11am
Punx0r wrote:
Feb 05 2019 5:27am
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 04 2019 6:23pm
but due to the market bid system , all suppliers get paid the same highest bid price as the final supplier to fill the shortfall... So all 20+ GW will have been entitled to the $14k /MWh during that market period
Yeah, the primary problem here is clearly a global conspiracy to promote AGW. :roll:
?? In what remote way are those two statements related ?? :roll:
You blame allegedly high electricity prices in South Australia on green initiatives driven by fears of global warming. yet your own description of how the problem arises clearly describes a system that is broken due to mismanagement and financial incentives that do not serve the consumer.

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 6:51pm
by sendler2112
Punx0r wrote:
Feb 05 2019 6:40pm
You blame allegedly high electricity prices in South Australia on green initiatives driven by fears of global warming. yet your own description of how the problem arises clearly describes a system that is broken due to mismanagement and financial incentives that do not serve the consumer.
Seems like a lack of reliable capacity.

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 7:36pm
by Hillhater
Punx0r wrote:
Feb 05 2019 6:40pm
You blame allegedly high electricity prices in South Australia on green initiatives driven by fears of global warming. yet your own description of how the problem arises clearly describes a system that is broken due to mismanagement and financial incentives that do not serve the consumer.
You have a odd interpretation of my statment..presumeably to fit your own beliefs ?
Its certainly mismanagement, dictated by a flawed political (socialist) ideology, fueled by the CAGW theory, that resulted in the elimination of major fossil generation capacity, without any effective replacement.
And yes , the market system, ( also configured to proitise RE generation) play straight into the hands of the privatised generation sector.
So, to make it clear for you..
... The power cuts and shortages are simply the result of a supply limitation created by socio/political stupidity .. and the escalating costs are due to the financial incentives required to add generation from other sources.

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 7:45pm
by Hillhater
jonescg wrote:
Feb 05 2019 5:46pm
Especially considering he's been hating on Tesla for two or three years now as they keep on demonstrably kicking goals. I mean at some point you would have to admit they did it right.
"Hating on Tesla" ..is a bit harsh !
I just keep asking when they are going to meet ANY of their goals or predictions !.. :shock:

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 8:03pm
by Hillhater
jimw1960 wrote:
Feb 05 2019 9:22am

He's one of the holdout deniers who gets his science information for right-wing political sites and conspiracy theory propagandists. I don't think he'll ever admit the truth because his political mindset and world view blocks any contradictory new information.
Hey jimw...
Only a few word changes needed ..
Look how well it reflects the situation !....
...Jimw1960 is one of the holdout ALARMISTS who gets his science information for LEFT-wing political sites and CAGW theory propagandists. I don't think he'll ever admit the truth because his political mindset and world view blocks any contradictory new information...

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 8:10pm
by jonescg
I think we're done here.

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 05 2019 10:40pm
by cricketo
jonescg wrote:
Feb 05 2019 8:10pm
I think we're done here.
Show must go on!

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 06 2019 1:07am
by Cephalotus
sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 05 2019 12:01pm

How much total loss from the nukes? What is the plan to replace that much generation in 3 years?
Something around 7-8 GW.

Some of those powerplants are not needed, some coal power plants will go into "cold reserve" for emergency, there will be some new gas peakers and there are also some other ideas. For example Jähnschwalde, a 3GW coal power plant should become a Carnot storage system. A bit simplified: You keep the grid conenction and the steam turbines, but use molten salt at 400°C to drive them. Those molten salt storarge will be heated by excessive solar and wind production.

The Bundesnetzagentur has been involved in those plans as have the BDEW (conglomerate of electricity producers)a and the BDI (industry association).

Main discussion point is the loss of jobs in regions like the Lausitz, where there are not many other jobs and the expected rise in electricity prices. Government want to compensate that with around 40 billion Euros over the years, mostly investment into new industries.
With rising prices at the spot market (which are very low most of the time now) gas power plants should become attractive again...

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 06 2019 3:42am
by Punx0r
Cephalotus wrote:
Feb 06 2019 1:07am

Main discussion point is the loss of jobs in regions like the Lausitz, where theer are not many other jobs
Denmark has done well growing a domestic industry producing wind turbines that employs many thousands. I'm sure ex-coal industry people could be redeployed (probably into cleaner jobs).

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 06 2019 5:03am
by Hillhater
jonescg wrote:
Feb 05 2019 8:10pm
I think we're done here.
Well you may be done, but sadly the rest of Australia is far from finished with the consequences..
For those who still fail to realise the financial consequences of the socialist "Green" RE policies of our states reckless dive into CO2 reduction, here are some numbers that may gain your attention...
This is a summary of the electricity cost during the critical period on Jan 24th, shown in periods of half hour.
( the yellow section represents 6 hrs from 4pm to 10 pm, in the states that have forced coal plants to shutdown )
The result is an additional $900 million just for that one day !

Image

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 06 2019 5:25am
by Hillhater
Cephalotus wrote:
Feb 05 2019 10:22am
Germany plans to phase out electricity production from coal by 2038

This includes shutting down around 12GW of coal power plants in just 3 years parallel to shutting down the last nukes by 2022.
So, what is the plan to keep the lights on when the wind stops blowing. ( as it will do !) ?
...another 40-50 GW of gas generation ? ?
...fueled from where ?

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 06 2019 6:00am
by sendler2112
Cephalotus wrote:
Feb 05 2019 10:22am
Germany plans to phase out electricity production from coal by 2038

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... ns-by-2038

"...The final 336-page document agreed by the coal commission, seen by the Guardian, shows Germany plans to reduce its 42.6GW of coal power capacity to about 30GW by 2022, falling to around 17GW by 2030. The deal will be formally published next Friday..."

This includes shutting down around 12GW of coal power plants in just 3 years parallel to shutting down the last nukes by 2022.
So they think they can replace 20 GW with wind and solar in 3 years? Solar in Germany only has a 12% capacity factor. Off shore wind might get to 60% now with the bigger turbines. But then you need to build new hgh power interconnects all the way to the factories in the South. So what nameplate capacity is needed? 20 GW wind and 50 GW solar?

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 06 2019 6:41am
by Hillhater
How ever much wind and solar they add, it will not help when the wind dies during the 6-8 pm peak.
They will have to replace all the coal and Nuke generation..plus more to match the new wind and solar capacity...with something reliable,...like gas generation. !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Posted: Feb 06 2019 9:58am
by Cephalotus
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 06 2019 5:25am
Cephalotus wrote:
Feb 05 2019 10:22am
Germany plans to phase out electricity production from coal by 2038

This includes shutting down around 12GW of coal power plants in just 3 years parallel to shutting down the last nukes by 2022.
So, what is the plan to keep the lights on when the wind stops blowing. ( as it will do !) ?
...another 40-50 GW of gas generation ? ?
...fueled from where ?
As you will not "believe" the answer anyway and will doubt anything and as you know everything better than the experts over here I suggest you just wait a few years until it actually did happen....