Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
User avatar
MJSfoto1956   100 W

100 W
Posts: 285
Joined: Jul 28 2010 9:28pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Feb 10 2019 10:04pm

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 10 2019 9:46pm
? Which one ? :wink:
Oh! Mormon are you? That's bigayou!!! :P

User avatar
jonescg   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3413
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Feb 10 2019 10:20pm

Yes, still grid connected. And I don't care if they pay me nothing for the power I push onto the grid. I just manage my loads for so I can maximise daytime usage. I still pay a dollar a day which pays for network upkeep.

So spare me your pensioner tears.

BTW - In WA we are only limited to 5 kW export. So there is nothing stopping you from using a few kW and exporting the difference.

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Feb 10 2019 11:20pm

jonescg wrote:
Feb 10 2019 10:20pm
Yes, still grid connected. And I don't care if they pay me nothing for the power I push onto the grid. I just manage my loads for so I can maximise daytime usage. I still pay a dollar a day which pays for network upkeep.

So spare me your pensioner tears.
Errr..No ! Your dollar a day does not pay for network upkeep..that is just a "connection charge" .
Network upkeep, or "distribution service and maintainance costs". Are what makes the biggest part of the usage charge (kWh cost)
Wholesale cost for electricity is approx $0.08 -$0.09 kWh, whilst the retail consumer charge is $0.30 - $0.40 /kWh
The difference ($0.20-$0.30/kWh is ade up of various costs and margins etc, but the largest proportion is the "Distribution and Maintenance" costs...costs for the "Poles and Wires" if you prefer !
And its not just the pensioners that are taking up your slack, its the school teachers, bus drivers, garbo's, nurses, truckies, shop workers, and all those businesses and industries that rely on electricity to function,..etc etc. :roll:
But dont let that twitch your sodcial consience if you are happy saving money at someone else's expence, and likely contributing to the demise of industry and businesses that will relocate overseas for cheaper power in order to remain competitive.!
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

User avatar
jonescg   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3413
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Feb 11 2019 12:09am

What were you saying about supply charges?
supply charge.JPG

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Feb 11 2019 12:56am

So if you had a $1000 bill, then $450 would be that "Network charge" ?
Thats a bit steep for a 90 day bill period ?
Conversly , how does that work for you with no kWh consumed , and $1/ day charge .?
Me thinks someone has got their facts screwed up !... Network costs are not a % of the total bill.
"Distribution costs" are a portion of the "consumption" rate (kWh) and network costs are a FIXED daily charge (approx $1.0 /day in Au)
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

cricketo   100 W

100 W
Posts: 291
Joined: Oct 23 2018 10:01pm

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Feb 11 2019 1:24am

jonescg wrote:
Feb 10 2019 10:20pm
Yes, still grid connected.
Can you share some details ? I imagine you installed your system yourself, but you likely still had to have a certified electrician (unless you're one) doing the interconnect. Additionally power company probably required a bump in liability insurance. So how did you arrive at such low cost of the system ?

User avatar
jonescg   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3413
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Feb 11 2019 1:30am

Yes, used panels and inverter, in installed them myself and an electrician did the final connection. It's only a 2 kW system and we still pay for some power, but we have the option of changing how we use the energy and paying less.

Yes, it's a dollar a day, fixed charge. They present the proportion of fixed costs as a percentage of your bill.
I only screen-grabbed it for your reading convenience; it would be less than 45% if I had entered $300.

But contrary to your claim that the supply charge has nothing to do with poles and wires, it has everything to do with poles and wires.
supply charge.JPG
Let me highlight the other sections for you:
Energy.JPG
RE policy.JPG

User avatar
jonescg   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3413
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Feb 11 2019 1:39am

Well there you go - they are still presenting it as a percentage:
supply charge2.JPG
They are being lazy - the most it will ever be is $1 a day, so $60 for a typical bill. The rest is energy cost.

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Feb 11 2019 7:11am

Sorry but No again .
.your fixed $1/day is just a "connection fee" that all grid consumers have to pay even if you use no electricity, and it is shown separately on the bill...$80-$90 a quarter.
You may call it a "Network cost" but that is not the same as the Network cost shown as a % of the consumption charge, on the Synergy site.
As i said before the "wholesale " cost of electricity is only 8-9 cents per kWh, the rest of the 30-40cents/kWh that they bill us for is the true "Distribution /Transmission cost".... (Which the Synergy site refers to as "Network costs"),
And it is that 20-30cents/kWh that you are passing on to other grid consumers when you use RT solar power.
Here are the current indicative retail prices, including my guess with respect to retailer markups:

STATE OR TERRITORY WHOLESALE PRICE $/MWH RETAIL PRICE $/KWH RETAIL PRICE $/MWH ESTIMATED MARKUP
South Australia ..............$114.16/MWh ................43.67c/kWh ............$436.7/MWh ..........383%
Victoria .....................$100.12/MWh .................27.56c/kWh ...".........$275.6/MWh ...........276%
New South Wales ........$88.06/MWh .................33.33c/kWh......... $j33.3/MWh ...........378%
Queensland ...............$76.92/MWh .................29.01c/kWh ..............$290.1/MWh ...........377%
Northern Territory ........Not disclosed; subsidised .....25.67c/kWh ........$256.7/MWh Likely similar to VIC
Western Australia .........Not disclosed ..................28.33c/kWh ........$283.3/MWh Likely similar to VIC
As you can see, when you compare wholesale electricity prices with retail, there are some significant markups. Let’s round out this article with a quick exploration of why that might be.

What does your retailer do for their markup?

Companies like AGL Energy, Alinta Energy, BlueNRG and Click Energy buy energy wholesale. Then they combine it with transmission and distribution services, before selling the final product to their customers. Of course, they also need to allow for all the other expenses associated with running their businesses.
.......
https://gobulk.com.au/australian-electricity-prices/
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

User avatar
jonescg   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3413
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Feb 11 2019 8:38am

Regardless of which part of my bill it comes from, I have no problem with paying for access to power, even if I don't use it. That I can export it is great - someone else can use the energy being supplied by a generator which ultimately displaces coal.

User avatar
MJSfoto1956   100 W

100 W
Posts: 285
Joined: Jul 28 2010 9:28pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Feb 11 2019 8:52am

jonescg wrote:
Feb 11 2019 8:38am
Regardless of which part of my bill it comes from, I have no problem with paying for access to power, even if I don't use it. That I can export it is great - someone else can use the energy being supplied by a generator which ultimately displaces coal.
HH is fuzzy on the concept.

billvon   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Feb 11 2019 12:01pm

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 10 2019 11:20pm
Errr..No ! Your dollar a day does not pay for network upkeep..that is just a "connection charge" .
Yes, it is a connection charge. And yes, it pays for upkeep.
. . . likely contributing to the demise of industry and businesses . . .
"Demise of business and industry?" I will laugh the next time you call someone else an alarmist.
--bill von

User avatar
MJSfoto1956   100 W

100 W
Posts: 285
Joined: Jul 28 2010 9:28pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Feb 11 2019 12:33pm

billvon wrote:
Feb 11 2019 12:01pm
"Demise of business and industry?" I will laugh the next time you call someone else an alarmist.
I have found that generally, people who accuse others of being "alarmists" are projecting their own fears onto others.

sendler2112   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1038
Joined: Dec 07 2012 6:14am
Location: Syracuse, NY USA

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 11 2019 12:54pm

"In this low EROI future, we simply have to accept the hard fact that we will not be able to sustain current levels of economic growth. “Meeting current or growing levels of energy need in the next few decades with low-carbon solutions will be extremely difficult, if not impossible,” the paper finds. The economic transition must involve efforts “to lower total energy use.” But capitalist markets will not be capable of facilitating the required changes — governments will need to step up, and institutions will need to actively shape markets to fit the goals of human survival. Right now, the prospects for this look slim. But the new paper argues that either way, change is coming."
.
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence ... 79facac985

leffex   100 W

100 W
Posts: 213
Joined: Apr 08 2012 4:39pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by leffex » Feb 11 2019 1:28pm

Sweden. approximate costs in US dollars

Yearly fee to company using zero electricity depending on electric connection to apartment or villa and power:
16a 3 phase apartment 100 dollar per year 0-8000 kwh
16a 3 phase villa 140 dollar 0-8000 kwh and 300 when usage is over 8000 kWh
25a 3 phase 600 dollar per 0+

transfer fees
0,080c $ for 0-8000 kwh
0,055c $ for 8000 kwh or more usage per year

0,05c $ electricity price right now 2019-02-11
0,08c $ electricity price in mid January 2019

taxes included(25% of total price)

so about 0,185$ per kwh 2019-02-11
electricity came from nuclear, 30%, wind 15%, reusable 12%, water 40%, unspecified 3%


0,20c $ per kwh for a small apartment max 8000 kWh per year going down to about
(my old apartment 16a, 1000 kwh per year, was about 200 dollars per year)
0,10c $ per kwh for villas or aparments using more than 8000-25000+ kwh per year
(my parents villa 25a, 20000 kwh per year pays about 2000 dollar every year)
5kw, dh, 85v/65a system.

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Feb 11 2019 2:55pm

MJSfoto1956 wrote:
Feb 11 2019 8:52am
jonescg wrote:
Feb 11 2019 8:38am
Regardless of which part of my bill it comes from, I have no problem with paying for access to power, even if I don't use it. That I can export it is great - someone else can use the energy being supplied by a generator which ultimately displaces coal.
HH is fuzzy on the concept.
No, quite the opposite.
I may be crap at explaining the differece between a daily "connection" fee. ( billed separately in $$s/day), and a "Didtribution/Transmission cost" ( included in the $$s/kWh consumption cost). and consequently some may have difficulty understanding ...
..but that is very different to others who refuse to accept that every kWh of RT solar consumed, forces remaining grid users to carry a higher % of the grid operating costs.. ( Australian situation)
Totally clear to me.....hard to accept by the RT solar club.
billvon wrote:
Feb 11 2019 12:01pm
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 10 2019 11:20pm
Errr..No ! Your dollar a day does not pay for network upkeep..that is just a "connection charge" .
Yes, it is a connection charge. And yes, it pays for upkeep.
No bill, our "daily connection charge" does not pay for upkeep....its purely an access fee.

Leffex..
Every country has different billing systems.
Your costs are held low due to the high % of long term established Hydro generation,
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

billvon   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Feb 11 2019 5:03pm

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 11 2019 2:55pm
No bill, our "daily connection charge" does not pay for upkeep....its purely an access fee.
Access fees pay for upkeep. There is no inherent cost in "accessing" the power grid other than the one time connection labor and upkeep.
--bill von

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Feb 11 2019 5:29pm

billvon wrote:
Feb 11 2019 5:03pm
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 11 2019 2:55pm
No bill, our "daily connection charge" does not pay for upkeep....its purely an access fee.
Access fees pay for upkeep. There is no inherent cost in "accessing" the power grid other than the one time connection labor and upkeep.
I wont keep repeating it bill, but in Australia, the daily "Access fee", "Supply charge", "Connection fee", Usage charge, etc... (whatever name you call it,....does NOT pay for grid upkeep, distribution costs, Transmission cost, new poles and wires, transformers, or that fleet of service trucks !
Those costs are added into the "wholesale power cost" , together with varios other charges, ..to result in the "Retail power cost". Which is billed as KWhs
This may well be different in your/ other countries
supply charge?

An electricity usage charge is what households must pay simply for being continuously connected to the energy network. This is a cost usually charged daily in cents, with retailers adding up each daily charge to give you on your next bill. Supply costs typically range from about 80c per day at their cheapest, to more than $1.20 at their most expensive, depending on your retailer and where you live.

As long as you want to be connected to the electricity network and receive power to your home, you’ll need to pay a supply charge. While ‘supply charge’ is now the most common term used to describe this cost, you may previously have seen it referred to as:

Fixed Charge
Daily Supply Charge
Service Charge (or Service to Property Charge)
The supply charge is not related to your usage – instead this figure on your bill is a daily amount your energy provider charges your property for being connected to the network. Even if you don’t use any electricity in a billing period, this rate will still be deducted provided that your supply is connected. If you’ve ever gone away for a few weeks and come home to a large power bill. Chances are your daily supply charge is the main reason for it.
https://www.canstarblue.com.au/electric ... y-charges/

And this explains the usage charges (kWh)
..( note the reference to "Government Green Schemes" ..
IE the subsidies for the RT solar systems are also being paid by those grid consumers that cannot install/afford them !)
Usage charges (variable charges)
Usage charges are generally calculated per kilowatt hour (kWh) for electricity, and per megajoule (MJ) or Unit for gas, for the amount of gas or electricity used at a home or business during the time period covered by a bill. Usage charges also cover some of the costs of maintaining and operating the Distribution and Transmission networks (see explanation of Network Costs), and some of the operational costs of supplying our customers.

The majority of costs associated with Government green schemes (see explanation of Government Green Scheme Costs) are generally recovered through the usage charges.

The actual amount of the variable usage charges that appear on an individual customer's bill depends on how much energy they use, as measured by their meter and multiplied by the usage rates that apply under their energy contract.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

billvon   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Feb 11 2019 6:04pm

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 11 2019 5:29pm
I wont keep repeating it bill, but in Australia, the daily "Access fee", "Supply charge", "Connection fee", Usage charge, etc... (whatever name you call it,....does NOT pay for grid upkeep, distribution costs, Transmission cost, new poles and wires, transformers, or that fleet of service trucks !
From your link:
======
Why do I need to pay a supply charge?

The cost of energy distribution (i.e. maintaining the poles and wires) makes up a significant part of your overall power costs, with distributors in each state passing their costs onto the retailers, who then pass them onto their customers.
======
In other words, it pays for grid upkeep.
--bill von

User avatar
jonescg   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3413
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Feb 11 2019 7:47pm

Indeed, if the supply charge / connection fee / daily unavoidable cost fee is attached to every bill and charged every day, WTF is it going towards if it's not going towards the costs of maintaining the supply of electricity to households?

Of course any additional costs are covered by the per kWh price of electricity. But if you can do it this way, why have an additional charge?

The answer in WA at least is because the supply charge / connection fee of $1.00 per day (currently) is the only way the state government can increase the take from electricity customers. They cannot, under the current legislation, increase the per kWh price of electricity. That is decided entirely by the AEMO.

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Feb 11 2019 7:59pm

Look at the typical cost breakdown of an Au power bill..
Image

Ignor the Tax component, and you can see that the "Line" costs (38%) are the larges part of the bill, with "Wholesale" ( 32%) making up most of the rest of the bill. That is accepted fact in Au
Common sense suggests that the $0.9 /day fixed charge cannot cover the 38% of the bill..
A). Because it would suggest a typical bill is only $2.40 per day ...when in reality an average bill is $5-$6 /day
B) because its a fixed rate and billed separately
C). Because we know that "consumption charges" are the largest part of the bill and comprise of the wholesale and line (distribution) costs (70% combined)

Power retailers are being very evasive of the daily charge details, as its widely accepted to be just a means of creaming more cash from customers and enabling them to advertise reduce consumption (kWh), costs to boost sales appeal.
In reality we get nothing for the daily charge.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

User avatar
jonescg   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3413
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Feb 11 2019 10:03pm

Need I point out the irony that your screenshot is from a New Zealand website?

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9472
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Feb 11 2019 11:30pm

It was the most descriptive diagram i could find.
As i said, Aussie power retailers are not keen on detailing their cost structure when they have a 300-400% mark up over the wholesale power cost !
The % are similar (Au actually has a higher % of "Line" costs)
This is data from a 2018 Au state (Tassie)
https://www.auroraenergy.com.au/your-ho ... -breakdown
35.5% Generation
Energy generated through local hydro and gas plants and from the mainland. This does not include any cost for carbon.

7.7% Renewable Energy Certificate charges
Australian Government charges to support renewable energy generation.

0.4% Market charges
Fees payable by all customers to participate in the National Energy Market.

41.5% Network
Costs to manage and maintain the poles and wires that deliver power from generators to customers premises.

2.8% Metering
The provision, installation, maintenance and reading of meters.

12.4% Retail
Covers costs for billing, customer service and provision of information services.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

Punx0r   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4957
Joined: May 03 2012 8:16am
Location: England

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Feb 12 2019 4:45am

I recently attended short presentation from a local engineering company that runs a small renewable energy site. The talk was called "The Problem with Renewable Energy" and detailed the growth and evolution of their scheme and how they had worked to overcome the variability of wind & solar power. The system is thus:

* Wind turbines initially installed with 40MW link to grid (capped by local grid infrastructure)
* PV installed - system generates more than the cap during summer/midday (wasted potential) and falls below it at mornings & evenings, unless windy
* Battery storage to shift some excess midday generation to several hours morning/evening to flatten supply curve
* Additional excess wind & PV generation used to produce hydrogen to power fleet of converted trucks for local authority (refuse collection etc)
* Kerbside collections of food waste used to produce biogas which is burnt in reciprocating generators to provide power during dark/low wind times
* Increase in installed PV (approx. 100MW) and power-hungry businesses invited to locate on site to ensure constant supply of mostly green power with multiple backups allows increased generation bypassing the grid connection cap.

The system is an entirely private venture operated for the purpose of profit and receives absolutely no subsidies for the power it exports to grid. Payback for the PV is currently 7.5 years for a site roughly on the same latitude as Moscow and above Newfoundland.

This is just one small system (0.5% of UK consumption) and I'm confident it's not perfect but it's a refreshing change from armchair experts stating that burning coal is the only way possible.

bmrcfreak   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 21
Joined: Sep 11 2014 11:33pm
Location: USA

Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by bmrcfreak » Feb 12 2019 11:04pm


Post Reply