Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
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ZeroEm   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Aug 15 2019 7:54am

So solar has a different frequency than Natural Gas? I always thought it was the equipment that set it regardless of what was producing it. So what is the frequency of Coal?
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Punx0r   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Aug 15 2019 10:03am

Hillhater wrote:
Aug 15 2019 5:56am
We do not know which plant went down first ,...timing for the Hornsea plant has not been released....you are just repeating media reports....
.......unless you have evidence of course ?
Exactly what misinformation do you think i posted ?
You claim the wind farm went offline first. This is contrary to all reports/evidence/whatever. If you have *anything* to support this then post it, else shut up.
Hillhater wrote:
Aug 15 2019 5:56am
Can you join the dots yet ?
I'm trying to, but not being a paranoid, contrarian conspiracy-theorist it's hard to identify with your viewpoint.
Last edited by Punx0r on Aug 16 2019 2:50am, edited 1 time in total.

Ianhill   1 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Ianhill » Aug 15 2019 10:08am

ZeroEm wrote:
Aug 15 2019 7:54am
So solar has a different frequency than Natural Gas? I always thought it was the equipment that set it regardless of what was producing it. So what is the frequency of Coal?
The grid frequency fluctuates with demand regardless of the generation source it's the capacity being reached so the frequency drops and then more power gets put on line from hydro etc.
You be surprised what happens when the tv add break comes on and everyone goes to make that cup of tea.

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TheBeastie   1 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by TheBeastie » Aug 15 2019 10:23am

So with folks ignoring Tesla's constant pleads for more nickel supplies and all the other reports from the EPA on nickel mining co2 or other reports like german science studies showing Tesla EVs battery manufacturing "pre-emit" more co2 than a lot of combustion cars in their lifetime,
so let us look at some of the Tesla fan sources instead
According to this video 80% of the Tesla cell cathode is made of nickel https://youtu.be/vpNZhKSfrKE?t=457 and is by far the most used metal in the battery, the Tesla fan video summarizes by saying it would make sense for Tesla to get into Nickel mining because its an expensive metal.

And then there is the latest article from pro-tesla Insideevs.
It Appears Tesla May Get Into The Mining Business
https://insideevs.com/news/365292/tesla ... -business/

Just remember its generally the case the more expensive the metal by ton or kilo the more co2 was released making the metal. This is why the process of mining and refining gold releases around 38,000x times its own weight in co2
Image

Just like the difficulty of mining gold because it is a rare metal, the amount of co2 released per ton of nickel mined/refined will continue to go up as richest nickel ores get used up.
There is a whole industry out there constantly trying to find ways to mine and refine metals in cheaper safer ways but not much really changes, the CSIRO recently put into use a new way to extract gold without the use of deadly cyanide which is popular mining technique used at large professional gold mining sites. But apparently, aside from this method being safer and more environmentally friendly, and some argue it's not really cheaper. But it should be popular with smaller gold mining operations that don't want to invest or get into the mess of cyanidation in their gold mining process.
https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/MRF/Ar ... g-for-gold
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billvon   100 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Aug 15 2019 10:51am

ZeroEm wrote:
Aug 15 2019 7:54am
So solar has a different frequency than Natural Gas? I always thought it was the equipment that set it regardless of what was producing it.
Yep. It's set inherently by the grid itself - and occasionally by another reference signal. RE providers often provide "ancillary services" which include frequency regulation. (Note that they don't even need batteries for this; the large capacitors in the RE inverters have enough storage to do this.) This service adds out of phase current to the grid in an attempt to maintain frequency in the face of natural gas plants dropping off the grid (as happened here.) Solution - add more RE providers who can provide ancillary services.
--bill von

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Ianhill » Aug 15 2019 8:41pm

The small fluctuations in the 50/60hz background hum of the grid is so unique over a small period of time it can be used in a court of law to prove time and date of indoor recordings, current tech renders this old school method quite useless but it's still something that can be replicated most indoor recordings carry this signal on the audio and with access to grid frequency data it can be date stamped accurately.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Aug 15 2019 9:39pm

Ianhill wrote:
Aug 15 2019 8:41pm
The small fluctuations in the 50/60hz background hum of the grid is so unique over a small period of time it can be used in a court of law to prove time and date of indoor recordings, current tech renders this old school method quite useless but it's still something that can be replicated most indoor recordings carry this signal on the audio and with access to grid frequency data it can be date stamped accurately.
Ian, with reference to the UK blackout the exact time of the frequency dip is well known (16:52pm) .
What is not being released yet is the exact time of the fault on the Hornsea system . All we know for sure is that at
17:00 Hornsea was unavailable to supply ( that is just the start of a normal 30 min billing period)
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Ianhill » Aug 15 2019 9:53pm

Hillhater wrote:
Aug 15 2019 9:39pm
Ianhill wrote:
Aug 15 2019 8:41pm
The small fluctuations in the 50/60hz background hum of the grid is so unique over a small period of time it can be used in a court of law to prove time and date of indoor recordings, current tech renders this old school method quite useless but it's still something that can be replicated most indoor recordings carry this signal on the audio and with access to grid frequency data it can be date stamped accurately.
Ian, with reference to the UK blackout the exact time of the frequency dip is well known (16:52pm) .
What is not being released yet is the exact time of the fault on the Hornsea system . All we know for sure is that at
17:00 Hornsea was unavailable to supply ( that is just the start of a normal 30 min billing period)
With regards to this blackout I'm unsure of the effected area, I can confirm that there's been no loss of supply or any blackouts in my area of South Wales, A wooden lamppost up the road from my girlfriend's house went up in flames and it took 2 hours of the local power distribution lads to rectify the problem meanwhile there was a large plasma arc working its way down the lamppost and the fire service no lie used water to squirt the fire and soak the wooden lamppost once they realized their stupidity they swapped to co2 extinguishers to save the environment lmao when the supply need to be turned off simple as that.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Aug 17 2019 11:51pm

Orsted said it is “fully confident” there will be no repeat of the fault that took the world’s largest offshore wind farm offline, contributing to a massive power outage that hit the UK a week ago.

A statement on Friday from the Hornsea 1 owner gave its first insight into the role of the project in the blackout, the subject of an urgent inquiry by UK TSO National Grid which is due to present its early findings to Britain’s power regulator Ofgem today.

a project spokesperson for Hornsea 1 said: “During a rare and unusual set of circumstances affecting the grid, Hornsea One experienced a technical fault which meant the power station rapidly de-loaded – that is it stopped producing electricity.

“Normally the grid would be able to cope with a loss of this volume (800MW). If National Grid had any concerns about the operation of Hornsea 1 we would not be allowed to generate. The relevant part of the system has been reconfigured and we are fully confident should this extremely rare situation arise again, Hornsea 1 would respond as required.”
https://www.rechargenews.com/wind/18381 ... k-blackout
But they are still full of BS..... There is no way a grid with40% non synchronous generation , could withstand that scale of generation loss.
Eventually the full details will be revealed ...
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Punx0r   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Aug 18 2019 7:17am

You would know...

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Aug 19 2019 1:10am

Uk blackout...
..timing is becoming clearer..exact cause still to be confirmed
18 Aug: UK Times: Interview: National Grid’s John Pettigrew —
by Rachel Millard
John Pettigrew was driving home to the Midlands two Fridays ago when he took a call from a lieutenant. It was just after ***4.53pm and the chief executive of National Grid was looking forward to seeing his family. However, the moment he answered, his weekend evaporated.
Two large power generators — the Hornsea wind farm off the coast of Yorkshire and the Little Barford gas-fired power plant in Bedfordshire — had failed simultaneously. National Grid’s frequency was dropping below the standard 50Hz to as low as 48.8Hz, knocking out 5% of the country’s power supply and causing blackouts…
Note the suggestion now that it was a “ simultaneous” ..failure of two generators ?
What is the probability of that happening ?
The grid frequency record for that period tells another story !
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Aug 19 2019 1:33am

And more from the FT ...
https://www.ft.com/content/8b738eac-c02 ... e555e96722

David Sheppard in London and Nathalie Thomas in Edinburgh AUGUST 17, 2019
National Grid’s preliminary investigation into the blackout that caused widespread disruption in England and Wales last week has raised the possibility that it was caused by the world’s largest offshore wind farm accidentally going offline.

The provisional report, which was submitted to regulators on Friday, suggests for the first time that the Hornsea offshore wind farm, which is owned and run by Denmark’s Orsted, may have tripped offline seconds before an outage at a smaller, gas-fired station.

The findings, which were relayed to the Financial Times by people briefed on the report, suggest the blackout may have been avoided if not for an error at the wind farm.
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Punx0r   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Aug 19 2019 3:54am

Damn, unrealiable renewable energy just caused ANOTHER power cut in the UK!



If that good old coal-smoker had been allowed to continue operating this would never have happened!

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Aug 19 2019 5:02am

And a million Brits may not have had to endure that blackout last week ! :bigthumb:
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billvon   100 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Aug 19 2019 12:28pm

Hillhater wrote:
Aug 17 2019 11:51pm
But they are still full of BS..... There is no way a grid with40% non synchronous generation , could withstand that scale of generation loss.
You are using words you do not understand again.
--bill von

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Aug 19 2019 6:48pm

You are guessing at the knowledge level of someone you do not know.. ...again ! :roll:
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Punx0r   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Aug 20 2019 3:55am

Is this where you final reveal you work for the National Coal Board? :lol:

billvon   100 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Aug 20 2019 12:27pm

Hillhater wrote:
Aug 19 2019 6:48pm
You are guessing at the knowledge level of someone you do not know.. ...again ! :roll:
You've demonstrated it here quite a bit.
--bill von

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Aug 20 2019 3:36pm

XR's Rupert Read
"As I see things, there are three broad possible futures that lie ahead:
This civilisation could collapse utterly and terminally, as a result of climatic instability (leading for instance to catastrophic food shortages as a probable mechanism of collapse), or possibly sooner than that, through nuclear war, pandemic, or financial collapse leading to mass civil breakdown. Any of these are likely to be precipitated in part by ecological/climate instability, as Darfur and Syria were. Or

This civilisation (we) will manage to seed a future successor-civilisation(s), as this one collapses.Or

This civilisation will somehow manage to transform itself deliberately, radically and rapidly, in an unprecedented manner, in time to avert collapse.

The third option, at which XR aims, is by far the least likely, though the most desirable, simply because either of the other options will involve vast suffering and death on an unprecedented scale."
https://www.resilience.org/stories/2019 ... -finished/

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ZeroEm   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Aug 20 2019 7:33pm

We are more attuned to looking back to see what happened than being aware of it happening at the time. I do see food shortages and instability. See the establishment fighting to maintain the status quo. They started losing their grip 10 years ago, but fighting hard to keep it maybe why trump was elected! We are changing but to slow, it should speed up with the last generation dying off.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Aug 20 2019 9:36pm

UK power outage...interim report
Lightning strike to blame ?? :roll:
But lightning strikes dont normally cause this type of problem ?
An interim report by National Grid into the causes of the power cut on Friday August 9, found the lightning strike hit the network at 4.52pm. Within minutes Hornsea off-shore wind farm and Little Barford gas power station suffered a failure, but National Grid did not have sufficient levels of “backup” power to cope with the loss in supply from those generators.
The bolt of lightning triggered an off-shore wind farm and a gas power station more than 100 miles apart to “independently” go off grid in what were “almost simultaneous unexpected power losses”.
Energy experts and critics of the UK’s increasing reliance on renewable energy are warning that new infrastructure, including battery systems to store power to cope in the event of an outage, is now desperately needed, raising the prospect of soaring energy bills.

The lightning strike was one of many to hit the grid that day with strikes "routinely managed as part of normal system operations".

Professor Dieter Helm, a government adviser on the country’s energy policy, wrote online how “something fundamental has gone wrong” when a lightning strike can cause a power cut “that should never have happened in the first place”.

Explaining how key infrastructure needs a reliable supply of electricity, he said new equipment is needed to improve energy “security” on a network which is becoming “fragile” because it is relying on more “intermittent renewable energy”.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... customers/
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billvon   100 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Aug 20 2019 9:46pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Aug 20 2019 7:33pm
We are more attuned to looking back to see what happened than being aware of it happening at the time. I do see food shortages and instability. See the establishment fighting to maintain the status quo. They started losing their grip 10 years ago, but fighting hard to keep it maybe why trump was elected! We are changing but to slow, it should speed up with the last generation dying off.
Yep. Sad that we have to wait for the dead-ender ignorati to die off before we can make progress, but c'est la vie.
--bill von

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TheBeastie   1 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by TheBeastie » Aug 21 2019 2:56am

The UK blackout ultimately relied too much on a wind-farm that had extra sensitive circuit breakers to protect their system compared to what a conventional power-plant would have.
I actually have a relative in Ipswich who receiving palliative care as he is going to die from cancer,
Ipswich Hospital loses power across site
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-suffolk-49299837

The same thing happened in South Australia, about four windfarm operators had overly sensitive circuit breakers and pulled power causing a cascade of failures in South Australia's electricity system.

When the massive state-wide blackout in South Australia that lasted days, the main-stream-media back then were blaming some single crappy electricity tower that collapsed, but really it had little to do with it.
The real problem was wind-farms that had "illegal sensitive level" circuit breakers that pulled power at the tiniest sign of trouble, the reason why its all so crappy is they are trying to build this system as cheaply as possible, even though its all ended up with the most expensive electricity in the world.

Australia’s energy regulator has launched court action against four windfarm operators, alleging they failed to meet performance requirements during 2016’s statewide South Australian blackout.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... n-blackout
It alleges subsidiaries of the four companies – AGL Energy, Neoen SA, Pacific Hydro and Tilt Renewables – failed to ensure their windfarms complied with a generator performance standard requirement and had automatic protection systems to ensure continuity of supply.


The Australian Energy Regulator has launched court action against four wind farm operators over South Australia's statewide blackout in 2016.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/sa-wind-far ... r-blackout

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On other news on green energy, 7 Wall-Mart stores have caught fire from Tesla's solar panel installations and Wall-Mart is suing Tesla to fix the damage and remove ALL the Tesla solar panel installations from its 240 Wall-Mart store locations due to a breach of contract.
Seems clear to me Tesla thought they could treat everyone like garbage and everyone would eat their products even if its no good, but Wall-Mart is a giant company and they are obviously not going to get kicked around like that and be a fan-boi.

Walmart sues Tesla after solar panels on stores catch fire, calls Tesla to remove them



The amount of lawsuit dockets against Tesla has now hit over 700.
https://twitter.com/PlainSite/status/11 ... 41984?s=20
Image
Speed Kills Range, 10mph = 46 miles range, 20mph = 20 miles, 30mph = 8 miles rangehttps://goo.gl/1JNL53
Over Charging Kills ur battery bit.ly/1hzWKl4
Consider PAS as your only throttle https://goo.gl/Kg1F8F
Fuel-Cell is the ultimate battery coupled with 4th-gen Nuclear
https://goo.gl/TcKtHs https://goo.gl/ZhFFot https://goo.gl/gfa215
10 Square Miles of solar panels = 0.12GW average power! https://goo.gl/Ub1S39

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Aug 21 2019 6:41am

Daniel Christian Wahl is doing good work.
.
We are undergoing a species level right of passage — the generations alive today are challenged to come together in unprecedented levels of cooperation to fundamentally redesign the human impact and presence on Earth. Our species is called to step into mature membership of the community of life and to become a regenerative rather than destructive influence on the ecosystems we inhabit. The window of opportunity is closing! It is “all hands on deck” and too few of us — but rapidly growing numbers — are responding.
.

https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/bre ... d0dfda3cc4

billvon   100 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Aug 21 2019 11:55am

TheBeastie wrote:
Aug 21 2019 2:56am
On other news on green energy, 7 Wall-Mart stores have caught fire from Tesla's solar panel installations and Wall-Mart is suing Tesla to fix the damage and remove ALL the Tesla solar panel installations from its 240 Wall-Mart store locations due to a breach of contract.
Yep. Tesla is now a mature, successful company, and like all such companies, they are starting to attract bottom feeding lawyers. Such lawyers go where the money is.
--bill von

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