Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Nov 13 2019 6:21pm

billvon wrote:
Nov 13 2019 11:20am
In this case since it's a closed population, and everyone starts with the same money, and the odds are exactly 50%, you'd expect personal wealth to wander around a bit but stay close to the starting value for each person. But after running such simulations long enough, you end up with a strange result - one person ends up with all the wealth and everyone else ends up with almost none. Which is exactly opposite what you'd expect.
Why so surprised at that result ?
You didnt need an economist or maths professor to tell you that if you have ever played any of the common board games such a Monopoly, Risk, etc or even the numerous card games Poker, BlackJack, etc.
There is always a concentration of money/power to a few players, and one winner eventually.
Either the one willing to take the most “risk “, or the one who knows the smartest way to play the game.
You could, “wipe the board” ,..rewrite the rules,.. even out the starting points, give everyone an even chance,..etc etc...
...but eventually the “winners” will start to emerge again, and the majority will be comparative losers, either financially or physically !
Look at any society. That is life with human nature,...and even in the animal kingdom too.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Ianhill » Nov 13 2019 7:53pm

Hillhater wrote:
Nov 13 2019 6:05pm
Ianhill wrote:
Nov 13 2019 11:31am
Oi moron, voyager 1 and 2 will find an orbit and crash land eventually ......
Ooowwh !.. Touchy are we ?
..but you are speculating,.. Wake me up when you can confirm that has happened !
And 50 years of continuous flight is not bad for 1970s technology.....
.... think what could be (is?) possible with todays tech, AI, etc !
Got my bear head on today clearly females have the power when it's the final say so as I've learnt but on topic na u can call me a thick $#@%@%@ much as u like when I slip up and I will.
On a human timescale it's easy to thinks it's got an infinite life but it's really still only a sperm in grand scheme.
It's a massive a achievement for humans and of course we could do it again but only even better tech has evolved ;)

Punx0r   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Nov 14 2019 4:15am

Hillhater wrote:
Nov 13 2019 6:21pm
There is always a concentration of money/power to a few players, and one winner eventually.
Either the one willing to take the most “risk “, or the one who knows the smartest way to play the game.
You forgot probably the single biggest factor: dumb luck

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Nov 14 2019 6:39am

What is it that successful people say about “making your own luck “
In reality,..if you dont take a chance, luck cannot help you .!
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Nov 14 2019 7:45am

High stakes poker is a game of high skill. This analogy has no relevance to factory workers making our clothes in Bangladesh (that used to be made locally 100 years ago) or farm workers in California being able to demand a middle class standard of pay raise. The owners of production now hold all the cards due to globalization, automation, and overpopulation.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Nov 14 2019 9:38am

Hillhater wrote:
Nov 14 2019 6:39am
What is it that successful people say about “making your own luck “
In reality,..if you dont take a chance, luck cannot help you .!
A look at the research on the subject, or just a quick a look around you would make it obvious that successful and/or wealthy people nearly always justify their priviledge by attributing it to internal factors like skill and hard work. While the reality is it's largely due to external factors beyond their control such as being born into priviledge or with useful genetic traits, knowing the right people, or just happening to be in the right place at the right time. From my own observations, many of the most hard-working people I've known have done so in low-pay jobs.

See this article on the modelling Bill mentioned:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... nevitable/

It's not only interesting in itself, but reinforces that it's largely luck as to whether someone ends up in the 1%.

billvon   100 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Nov 14 2019 11:24am

Hillhater wrote:
Nov 13 2019 6:21pm
Why so surprised at that result ?
Because there is a common myth that the free market is fair, and does not arbitrarily reward and punish people. Not only is it not fair, it drives wealth towards inequality.
--bill von

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Grantmac » Nov 14 2019 11:48am

Hillhater wrote:
Nov 13 2019 6:21pm
Why so surprised at that result ?
You didnt need an economist or maths professor to tell you that if you have ever played any of the common board games such a Monopoly, Risk, etc or even the numerous card games Poker, BlackJack, etc.
There is always a concentration of money/power to a few players, and one winner eventually.
Either the one willing to take the most “risk “, or the one who knows the smartest way to play the game.
You could, “wipe the board” ,..rewrite the rules,.. even out the starting points, give everyone an even chance,..etc etc...
...but eventually the “winners” will start to emerge again, and the majority will be comparative losers, either financially or physically !
Look at any society. That is life with human nature,...and even in the animal kingdom too.
You do realize that Monopoly was specifically created to teach children about the evils of free market caplitalism right?

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Nov 14 2019 3:34pm

Grantmac wrote:
Nov 14 2019 11:48am
You do realize that Monopoly was specifically created to teach children about ..xxxxxxxxxxx...free market caplitalism right?
?? You think so ??
The History of Charles Darrow's Monopoly
Let’s start with a summary from what is commonly considered the definitive resource on the subject: "The Monopoly Book, Strategy and Tactics" by Maxine Brady, wife of Hugh Hefner's biographer and chess champion Frank Brady, published by the David McKay Company in 1975.
Brady's book describes Charles Darrow as an unemployed salesman and inventor living in Germantown, Pennsylvania. He was struggling with odd jobs to support his family in the years following the great stock market crash of 1929. Darrow remembered his summers in Atlantic City, New Jersey and spent his spare time drawing the streets of Atlantic City on his kitchen tablecloth with pieces of material and bits of paints and wood contributed by local merchants. A game was already forming in his mind as he built little hotels and houses to place on his painted streets.
Soon friends and family gathered nightly to sit round Darrow's kitchen table and buy, rent and sell real estate – all part of a game that involved spending vast sums of play money. It quickly became a favorite activity among those with little real cash of their own. The friends wanted copies of the game to play at home. Ever accommodating, Darrow began selling copies of his board game for $4 each. ]
Works well for adults too ! (Which is why i referenced it )
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Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Nov 14 2019 3:48pm

Punx0r wrote:
Nov 14 2019 9:38am
Hillhater wrote:
Nov 14 2019 6:39am
What is it that successful people say about “making your own luck “
In reality,..if you dont take a chance, luck cannot help you .!
A look at the research on the subject, or just a quick a look around you would make it obvious that successful and/or wealthy people nearly always justify their priviledge by attributing it to internal factors like skill and hard work. .....
Try some other sources too..
...a “quick look” at “Rich man Poor man”, very quickly explains the difference between hard work, and working for success.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Grantmac » Nov 14 2019 4:25pm

From Wiki:

The board game Monopoly has its origin in the early 20th century. The earliest known version of Monopoly, known as The Landlord's Game, was designed by an American, Elizabeth Magie, and first patented in 1904 but existed as early as 1902.[1][2] Magie, a follower of Henry George, originally intended The Landlord's Game to illustrate the economic consequences of Ricardo's Law of Economic rent and the Georgist concepts of economic privilege and land value taxation.[3] A series of board games was developed from 1906 through the 1930s that involved the buying and selling of land and the development of that land. By 1933, a board game had been created much like the version of Monopoly sold by Parker Brothers and its related companies through the rest of the 20th century, and into the 21st. Several people, mostly in the midwestern United States and near the East Coast of the United States, contributed to the game's design and evolution.

By the 1970s, the idea that the game had been created solely by Charles Darrow had become popular folklore; it was printed in the game's instructions for many years,[4] in a 1974 book devoted to Monopoly,[5] and was cited in a general book about toys even as recently as 2007.[6][7] Even a guide to family games published for Reader's Digest in 2003 only gave credit to Darrow and none to Elizabeth Magie, erroneously stating that Magie's original game was created in the 19th century, and not acknowledging any of the game's development between Magie's creation of the game, and the eventual publication by Parker Brothers.[8]

Punx0r   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Nov 14 2019 7:27pm

Hillhater wrote:
Nov 14 2019 3:48pm
...a “quick look” at “Rich man Poor man”, very quickly explains the difference between hard work, and working for success.
Is this the idea that if everyone worked sufficiently hard/smart they too could have above-average wealth???

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Nov 17 2019 11:28pm

No, that wealth would be AVERAGE.

Such as if everyone worked as hard to get the rare earth metals from the ocean floor they'd have about the same amount, right?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rare-earth ... 019-11-17/
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Nov 18 2019 7:04am

Might as well grab it for our use. 1% of the sea floor with it's wild life will have to suffer to our collateral damage. This is probably less ruinous than raking up (clear cutting) the floor for shrimp.
.
https://youtu.be/BcJFSl_YJHk
.
"The International Seabed Authority estimates that the total amount of nodules in the Clarion Clipperton Zone exceeds 21 billions of tons (Bt), containing about 5.95 Bt of manganese, 0.27 Bt of nickel, 0.23 Bt of copper and 0.05 Bt of cobalt.[2]" "Nodule growth is one of the slowest of all known geological phenomena, on the order of a centimeter over several million years.[10] Several processes are hypothesized to be involved in the formation of nodules, including the precipitation of metals from seawater (hydrogenous), the remobilization of manganese in the water column (diagenetic), the derivation of metals from hot springs associated with volcanic activity (hydrothermal), the decomposition of basaltic debris by seawater (halmyrolitic) and the precipitation of metal hydroxides through the activity of microorganisms (biogenic[11]). Several of these processes may operate concurrently or they may follow one another during the formation of a nodule."
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_nodule
.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Nov 18 2019 8:35pm

(Bloomberg) -- The world’s biggest lithium-ion battery is about to get even bigger, with Tesla Inc. set to beef up capacity at the Hornsdale site in South Australia.

The system will be expanded by 50% to 150 megawatts, according to an announcement from Neoen SA, the French company that operates the site. The storage site has already saved consumers more than A$50 million ($34 million) in its first year of operation.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-se ... 54758.html

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sn0wchyld » Nov 18 2019 10:04pm

Punx0r wrote:
Nov 14 2019 7:27pm
Hillhater wrote:
Nov 14 2019 3:48pm
...a “quick look” at “Rich man Poor man”, very quickly explains the difference between hard work, and working for success.
Is this the idea that if everyone worked sufficiently hard/smart they too could have above-average wealth???
I've come into this convo late, and not read all the buildup, but how exactly do you get everyone on to an above average wage? did i miss something because that seems physically impossible.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Nov 19 2019 3:43am

Sarcasm my part. It's the logical conclusion to the oft-stated argument "I'm not priviledged - anyone could have what I do if they worked as hard as I have".

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Grantmac » Nov 19 2019 11:12am

Everyone could live in comfort if two conditions were met:
<2 billion people worldwide.
No billionaires, period.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Cephalotus » Nov 19 2019 11:58am

Grantmac wrote:
Nov 19 2019 11:12am
Everyone could live in comfort if two conditions were met:
<2 billion people worldwide.
No billionaires, period.
The world would do fine with 2 billion Indians, maybe with 2 billion Europeans, but NOT with 2 billion US Americans.

And it's NOT the viw billionaires, ist hundreds of millions of Joe averages that cause our problems. People like you and me.

But reality is that we are almost 8 Billion and the amount of birth control will only give us a Variation between 9-11 billion in 2100, part of the growth is becaise of the demographics of already existing People.

So there is no point in discussion how it could be. We need to find a solution that will work for 10 Billion People, preferable at a high living standard, not at the average Indian living Standard.

The solution for a sutstainable world with 10 Billion Homo spaines in the 21st century is

- mostly solar and wind power, add some nuclear for those that prefer this for whatever reason.
- electric mobility (bikes, cars. Trains, some trucks) and just little fuel based mobility (planes, ships, some trucks) with CO2 neutral fuels
- high efficient buildings
- real recycling
- mostly plant based diet and reduced lifestock compared to today.

the ideal tool for that would be a world wide Price on CO2 emissions. 100USD/t would work wonders and magically 90% of the Goals would be reached withing 20 years. The money would not be gone but could be used for whatever you like (except for extracting and burning fossil fuels)

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sn0wchyld » Nov 19 2019 4:17pm

Punx0r wrote:
Nov 19 2019 3:43am
Sarcasm my part. It's the logical conclusion to the oft-stated argument "I'm not priviledged - anyone could have what I do if they worked as hard as I have".
right... cause sarcasm translates SO WELL over text






;)

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Nov 19 2019 4:22pm

Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Nov 19 2019 5:38pm

GoldenEye ?? :shock:
? ..do they understand the role of Carbon in Cement and Steel making ?
...Bottom line... they have a different system to track the mirrors, giving a higher focused temperature.
So now they have to find a way to solve conversion and storage problems at a higher temperature than those that have been so problematic with other Thermal Solar systems.
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Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Nov 19 2019 5:49pm

Cephalotus wrote:
Nov 19 2019 11:58am

The solution for a sutstainable world with 10 Billion Homo spaines in the 21st century is
Yada...
Yada..

the ideal tool for that would be a world wide Price on CO2 emissions. 100USD/t would work wonders and magically 90% of the Goals would be reached withing 20 years. The money would not be gone but could be used for whatever you like (except for extracting and burning fossil fuels)
You wont find a practical solution to your percieved problem until you start working with Real Science instead of that UN/IPCC/Gore “Political science” .!
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Ianhill » Nov 19 2019 6:52pm

I have to agree with hillhater on this one the problem is so widespread and ingrained we fool ourselfs that it can be fixed in 20 years or so.

Thunderfoot has a video up showing just how much of a pointless gesture 20 million trees are to the co2 situation, U.S alone needs to plant 40 million a day just to cover their own daily pollution let alone the fact we have been at it for hundreds of years and progressing in our demands shows to me that talk is cheap we don't plan far enough ahead in any political or financial system to have any chance of a fight damn everything is run cut throat bare minimum we are preparing for a global crisis of financial instability and it's only going to force dirty habits all the more.

The true answer to all this ? Money needs careful looking at it's not helping equality, political agenda tied into business development for the rich has to stop we can not allow the rich to have control of the money sector much longer, country's have negative interest rates poverty is increasing there's more and more protesting yet media cover what suits their political alignment it's all horse shit in all the developed country's same old bullshit sold over and over.

People are getting fed up there's not going to be a fix for climate in any rush, its being denied from up top becuase it's not global warming that's the money scam but warming the globe is the scam that's making money for the rich and it can't stop they want full control of everything look at the money the banking sector has pushed at brexit so they can relax the rules for themselfs and the poor are dull enough to vote for the lies and hang themselfs it's a shambles and many should be ashamed of themselfs, lucky its not a hundred years ago or they would be hung.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Nov 19 2019 7:50pm

Its obvious to anyone who bothers to check, (with an open mind ) , that Co2 is not the “control knob” of Global Temperature/Climate Change, Floods, Fires, Sea Level, Glacier melt, GBR Bleaching, earthquakes, etc, etc,..
It is Canute level thinking to believe that humans have any more influence over these natural events than the chooks in my back yard.
We do not even understand the basic factors involved sufficiently ( CO2 “cycle” is estimated) let alone begin to analyse the numerous interactions of the multiple inputs to our climate.
To suggest we can “control” the climate with any one factor is optomistic at best, “knob head” thinking in reality.
The UN have stated that it is nothing to do with Climate,.. its all about Social and Economic restructuring .
...(with CO2 simply being the political weapon of choice )
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