Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Mar 25 2020 12:00am

JackFlorey wrote:
Mar 24 2020 10:20pm
Hillhater wrote:
Mar 24 2020 5:23pm
The only technologies that are proven to work currently, are fosssil fuels and Nuclear (fission)
650 gigawatts of working solar says you are wrong.
Sorry jack, you will have to be sharper than that to avoid the real issue.
The “backbone” of a power system is not what supplies 50%+,of the energy, but what continuous power whenever its needed to keep the lights on and industry running when the weather isnt co operating.. and there is NO RE technology that can do y\that currently.
And show me where said solar and wind would be “gone” in 10yrs, ?
I said that it can never be a replacement for Fossil generated power.
But if you want a bet jack, im game...just a little clarification using YOUR numbers..
IE, that 650GW of solar..( or however much more is built ).... to generate an AVERAGE of 650GW over a 12 month period by 2030 ??
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sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Mar 25 2020 5:54am

Solar electricity production in California peaked at 8 GW yesterday. Electricitymap.org states an installed capacity of 13 GW.
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Image
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JackFlorey   1 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Mar 25 2020 10:47am

Hillhater wrote:
Mar 25 2020 12:00am
But if you want a bet jack, im game...just a little clarification using YOUR numbers..
IE, that 650GW of solar..( or however much more is built ).... to generate an AVERAGE of 650GW over a 12 month period by 2030 ??
I knew you'd try to back out! You had a chance to put your money where your mouth was - and you ran just as fast as you could.

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Mar 25 2020 12:10pm

"We would need one and a half Earths to sustain the existing economy into the future. Every year this ecological overshoot continues, the foundations of our existence, and that of other species, are undermined.

At the same time, there are great multitudes around the world who are, by any humane standard, under-consuming, and the humanitarian challenge of eliminating global poverty is likely to increase the burden on ecosystems still further.

Meanwhile the population is set to hit 11 billion this century. Despite this, the richest nations still seek to grow their economies without apparent limit.

Like a snake eating its own tail, our growth-orientated civilisation suffers from the delusion that there are no environmental limits to growth. But rethinking growth in an age of limits cannot be avoided. The only question is whether it will be by design or disaster." https://theconversation.com/life-in-a-d ... y-it-32224

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Mar 25 2020 3:48pm

JackFlorey wrote:
Mar 25 2020 10:47am
Hillhater wrote:
Mar 25 2020 12:00am
But if you want a bet jack, im game...just a little clarification using YOUR numbers..
IE, that 650GW of solar..( or however much more is built ).... to generate an AVERAGE of 650GW over a 12 month period by 2030 ??
I knew you'd try to back out! You had a chance to put your money where your mouth was - and you ran just as fast as you could.
I thought i was making it easier for you jack !
Just betting that the 650GW you say is available now, will not even be able produces that average power in 10 years time ??
You want that bet ?
But if you prefer your version.....
...... 2 x 650 GW in 10 years ...
OK..but that has to be 1300GW of power GENERATED ..averaged over the year ?
Bet on ?
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sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Mar 26 2020 10:18am

Nate Hagens wrote today: "We are in the midst of a global pandemic. But SARS-Cov2 is only the proximate risk. Ultimately, the virus is laying bare many of the problems that have built up over decades: chasms of inequality, the use of virtual debt to paper over physical world problems, ecological/systems ignorance, addiction, obesity, globalized just-in-time (and fragile) supply chains (especially for basic needs), and fractured political governance— all in service of the growth dynamic, as described in this paper, and this video. We have chosen economic efficiency over resilience. We have substituted technological stimulation and money for social interactions. We have substituted dopamine and supernormal stimulation (most of us, including me) for physical health. The game has been the plan, and the game has changed so rapidly that we have no plan."
.

https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020 ... ronavirus/

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Mar 26 2020 10:20am


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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Apr 06 2020 1:13pm

Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Apr 06 2020 6:46pm

^^^ All very logical,..until he gets to the end point of these dramatic reduction in oil &Gas prices encouraging the change to “cheaper” energy sources , such as solar and wind, ??
If anything, a 50% reduction in primary fuel costs ( Natural Gas) , would most likely reduce the attraction of alternative energy sources ?
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JackFlorey   1 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Apr 06 2020 6:58pm

Hillhater wrote:
Apr 06 2020 6:46pm
If anything, a 50% reduction in primary fuel costs ( Natural Gas) , would most likely reduce the attraction of alternative energy sources ?
Yep, and that's what will dramatically extend the lifetime of our remaining oil. Demand will drop due to alternatives, but won't go away completely because the demand drop will also reduce the price of the remaining oil, making it more competitive again. Tight oil will no longer be profitable, so the remaining industries that need oil will be drawing from the more traditional wells.

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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Apr 06 2020 10:44pm

Hillhater wrote:
Apr 06 2020 6:46pm
^^^ All very logical,..until he gets to the end point of these dramatic reduction in oil &Gas prices encouraging the change to “cheaper” energy sources , such as solar and wind, ??
If anything, a 50% reduction in primary fuel costs ( Natural Gas) , would most likely reduce the attraction of alternative energy sources ?
He didn't say it would encourage it. He remarked on the opportunity to use the savings, plus the reduced value of oil discouraging expensive mining operations such as the oil sands so there would be a future of shortages.

It must be horrible to hear someone try to be optimistic even as he uses words such as "Bleak."
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

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ZeroEm   1 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Apr 07 2020 10:53am

I'm attracted to how much cleaner the atmosphere is.
abundans cautela non nocet
2019 Performer E-Trike 9w/km
2013 Nissan Leaf S 7 bars 331.5w/KM

JackFlorey   1 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Apr 07 2020 12:15pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Apr 07 2020 10:53am
I'm attracted to how much cleaner the atmosphere is.
Yep. We can do it if there's a reason.

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Apr 07 2020 12:25pm

JackFlorey wrote:
Apr 07 2020 12:15pm
ZeroEm wrote:
Apr 07 2020 10:53am
I'm attracted to how much cleaner the atmosphere is.
Yep. We can do it if there's a reason.
As long as we totally redesign social organization and the economy to allow (all of) us to flourish equitably with the things we really need. With a much smaller energy total during a controlled degrowth period which somehow avoids collapse.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Apr 07 2020 4:57pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Apr 07 2020 10:53am
I'm attracted to how much cleaner the atmosphere is.
What do you believe has caused that to happen ?
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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Apr 07 2020 8:04pm

Hillhater wrote:
Apr 07 2020 4:57pm
ZeroEm wrote:
Apr 07 2020 10:53am
I'm attracted to how much cleaner the atmosphere is.
What do you believe has caused that to happen ?
Don't fall for it. You KNOW this is a setup.

Image
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING » Apr 07 2020 8:32pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Apr 07 2020 12:25pm
JackFlorey wrote:
Apr 07 2020 12:15pm
ZeroEm wrote:
Apr 07 2020 10:53am
I'm attracted to how much cleaner the atmosphere is.
Yep. We can do it if there's a reason.
As long as we totally redesign social organization and the economy to allow (all of) us to flourish equitably with the things we really need. With a much smaller energy total during a controlled degrowth period which somehow avoids collapse.
Good. We've basically been running the same playbook set during the 50's anyway and it's LONG out of date.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Apr 07 2020 10:46pm

Dauntless wrote:
Apr 07 2020 8:04pm
Hillhater wrote:
Apr 07 2020 4:57pm
ZeroEm wrote:
Apr 07 2020 10:53am
I'm attracted to how much cleaner the atmosphere is.
What do you believe has caused that to happen ?
Don't fall for it. You KNOW this is a setup.
Nahh !... just trying to pry out the unspoken implication ! :wink:
.... maybe the wind direction changed ? :roll:
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sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Apr 09 2020 8:19am

"Building the level of renewable generation and storage necessary to reach the state’s goals would drive up costs exponentially, from $49 per megawatt-hour of generation at 50 percent to $1,612 at 100 percent.
And that’s assuming lithium-ion batteries will cost roughly a third what they do now."
.
https://medium.com/mit-technology-revie ... b1d7c7090d
.

JackFlorey   1 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Apr 09 2020 10:13am

sendler2112 wrote:
Apr 07 2020 12:25pm
As long as we totally redesign social organization and the economy to allow (all of) us to flourish equitably with the things we really need. With a much smaller energy total during a controlled degrowth period which somehow avoids collapse.
Well, that's a whole mismash of "social justice" and energy use - but agreed, it would be a big change.

JackFlorey   1 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Apr 09 2020 10:16am

sendler2112 wrote:
Apr 09 2020 8:19am
"Building the level of renewable generation and storage necessary to reach the state’s goals would drive up costs exponentially, from $49 per megawatt-hour of generation at 50 percent to $1,612 at 100 percent. And that’s assuming lithium-ion batteries will cost roughly a third what they do now.
Yep. Silly to supply 100% of our needs from batteries. They are best used to replace peakers, with the bulk of our energy coming from load-synchronous renewables and base load power coming from nuclear.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Apr 09 2020 7:10pm

JackFlorey wrote:
Apr 09 2020 10:16am
Yep. Silly to supply 100% of our needs from batteries. They are best used to replace peakers, with the bulk of our energy coming from load-synchronous renewables and base load power coming from nuclear.
Ahh, yes..the “idealist” view .!
Unfortunately the reality is that the states dont want nuclear either...which is why there is so much Gas..
...and Renewables are are too unreliable to depend on for “bulk” power, such that you never know how much battery, ..(or other source)..back up you may need.
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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Apr 09 2020 8:38pm

Hillhater wrote:
Apr 09 2020 7:10pm
Ahh, yes..the “idealist” view .!
But that's how you know it works perfectly, because it WOULD be so ideal. It's people like you who keep the world from being perfect, you know.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Apr 10 2020 6:42am

Dauntless wrote:
Apr 09 2020 8:38pm
.... It's people like you who keep the world from being perfect, you know.
No.. it is ALL the people in the world that prevents it being perfect or even close to ideal .! :wink:
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sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Apr 11 2020 3:56pm

"In fact, we could discuss details for a long time, but nobody in good faith can deny that humanity, as a whole, has largely passed the Planet’s limits of sustainability. Just to mention a few numbers, today the technosphere (a.k.a. anthroposphere, that is humanity with all its infrastructures and symbionts) amounts to about 40,000 million tons, some 4,500 tons per person.

We and our domestic animals are about 98% of the world’s fauna, about 40% of the Earth’s surface is completely artificialized (urban, suburban, agricultural, etc.), 37% is made up of natural habitats heavily modified for anthropic use (pastures and almost all forests), only 23% can still be classified as 'wild' (a few remote forests, but almost only deserts, mountain tops, and Arctic regions)."
https://cassandralegacy.blogspot.com/20 ... -when.html

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