Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
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TheBeastie   10 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by TheBeastie » Sep 19 2020 10:18pm

Dauntless wrote:
Sep 09 2020 12:04am
Once we've burned up all the hydrogen, how do we get water back?
Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the whole universe.
And it's never destroyed, it just binds to other elements like 2 Oxygen elements to create water...

When you "burn" hydrogen its actually a reversing chemical process of combining it with other elements, when hydrogen is "burned" it gives off heat/fire as it recombines with oxygen or other free floating elements.
Because burning stuff gives an optical illusion of destroying something or making it smaller, it's really the opposite, as the "burning" material is dispersed widely out into a larger volume into the atmosphere in the form of a gas of some sort.. (co2 / water vapour etc)

With fuel-cells the electricity is created because of the electrons pull attached to Hydrogen wanting to join Oxygen to become water/H2O..

You can see here this ballon of hydrogen is already pooling water at the bottom due to the oxygen that was already in the ballon...
https://youtu.be/WtPrIH0T3b0?t=176

When the flame hits the hydrogen in the ballon it forces a fast reaction of the Hydrogen recombing to the oxygen in the atmosphere causing a splash of water and the release of a lot of heat in the chemical recombination process.
Instead of electricity being created all the potential energy is lost in the form of a heat explosion in the process recombining the hydrogen and oxygen atoms.
https://youtu.be/WtPrIH0T3b0?t=242

Air is mostly just 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen with 0.04% being co2 and other stuff. So free floating hydrogen will attach to oxygen to become water vapour any chance it can get.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospher ... omposition
Image

Here is a rather new and nerdy video below of how they make PEM fuel cells.
PEMFCs are built out of membrane electrode assemblies (MEA) which include the electrodes, electrolyte, catalyst, and gas diffusion layers.
An ink of catalyst, carbon, and electrode are sprayed or painted onto the solid electrolyte and carbon paper is hot pressed on either side to protect the inside of the cell and also act as electrodes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton-ex ... _fuel_cell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrAAVOgBmcE
Speed Kills Range, 10mph = 46 miles range, 20mph = 20 miles, 30mph = 8 miles rangehttps://goo.gl/1JNL53
Over Charging Kills ur battery bit.ly/1hzWKl4
Consider PAS as your only throttle https://goo.gl/Kg1F8F
Fuel-Cell is the ultimate battery coupled with 4th-gen Nuclear
https://goo.gl/TcKtHs https://goo.gl/ZhFFot https://goo.gl/gfa215
10 Square Miles of solar panels = 0.12GW average power! https://goo.gl/Ub1S39

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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Sep 20 2020 10:56pm

Hellhater will have the best comment on this one, the rest of you wait for the master to weight in.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/12/clim ... aring.html
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Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Sep 20 2020 11:51pm

Ahh ! I see a major flaw in that discussion..
........ leaks of natural gas, a major contributor to climate change.......
So, I didnt bother reading any further ! :wink:
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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Sep 21 2020 3:27pm

I don't understand, you don't think there is much? It's definitely worse than burning it. Remember they're trying to use the message against you.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Sep 22 2020 2:18pm

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/09 ... money-intl

The page has some strange formatting, make sure you made it to the bottom.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
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Balmorhea   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Balmorhea » Sep 22 2020 2:41pm

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 20 2020 11:51pm
Ahh ! I see a major flaw in that discussion..
........ leaks of natural gas, a major contributor to climate change.......
So, I didnt bother reading any further ! :wink:
Most hydrogen used these days is steam reformed from natural gas.
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Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Sep 22 2020 3:08pm

Balmorhea wrote:
Sep 22 2020 2:41pm
Hillhater wrote:
Sep 20 2020 11:51pm
Ahh ! I see a major flaw in that discussion..
........ leaks of natural gas, a major contributor to climate change.......
So, I didnt bother reading any further ! :wink:
Most hydrogen used these days is steam reformed from natural gas.
???... so what are you saying here..?
What is the connection between an article on NG leakage/flareing , and hydrogen production. ?
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Balmorhea   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Balmorhea » Sep 22 2020 3:14pm

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 22 2020 3:08pm
Balmorhea wrote:
Sep 22 2020 2:41pm
Hillhater wrote:
Sep 20 2020 11:51pm
Ahh ! I see a major flaw in that discussion..
........ leaks of natural gas, a major contributor to climate change.......
So, I didnt bother reading any further ! :wink:
Most hydrogen used these days is steam reformed from natural gas.
???... so what are you saying here..?
What is the connection between an article on NG leakage/flareing , and hydrogen production. ?
I didn't read the article. But as things are now, vehicles fueled by hydrogen are in fact fueled by natural gas more often than not. So they carry all the compromises of that industry.

Sort of like how in a lot of places, an electric vehicle is a coal-burning vehicle.
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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Sep 22 2020 3:30pm

Hydrogen has been on ongoing topic just now, so as he says we get hydrogen from gas that's being wasted.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
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Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Sep 22 2020 3:53pm

Dauntless wrote:
Sep 22 2020 3:30pm
Hydrogen has been on ongoing topic just now, so as he says we get hydrogen from gas that's being wasted.
Nice theory.....but not on a industrial scale,..... huge volumes of commercial gas are required
“Cheap , Clean “ hydrogen is produced by burning gas to make steam, which is then used to reform more gas into hydrogen that costs $10+ per kg to produce. ...
.....with 10 kg of CO2 as a byproduct. !! :roll:
Yea..cheap ...clean... NOT !
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ZeroEm   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 22 2020 5:53pm

Let's just split water!
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Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Sep 22 2020 6:41pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Sep 22 2020 5:53pm
Let's just split water!
With what ??.....an axe ?
..but i guess you are thinking Electrolysis ...?
You may want to consider the practical costs of that approach too ! :wink:
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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Sep 28 2020 2:17am

Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Sep 29 2020 3:51pm

Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Sep 30 2020 8:02pm

It would appear that some “early adopters” of RE generation are realising that there is more to it than a simple switch away from fossil fuels, and the true costs are hidden along with the consequences.
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kdog   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by kdog » Oct 01 2020 7:25am

China just brought onlinethe world's biggest PV power station, source- PV magazine:

World’s largest solar plant goes online in China
Huanghe Hydropower Development has connected a 2.2 GW solar plant to the grid in the desert in China’s remote Qinghai province. The project is backed by 202.8 MW/MWh of storage.

2.2gig....thats huge! Even the skeptics got to admit thats one badass array :shock:

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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Oct 04 2020 10:25pm

Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

JackFlorey   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Oct 04 2020 10:28pm

kdog wrote:
Oct 01 2020 7:25am
2.2gig....thats huge!
Yep. And as prices drop, they are only going to get bigger.

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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Oct 04 2020 11:26pm

Australia's main electricity grid - the NEM, enjoyed five days in a row of >50% renewable electricity for a few hours each time.
https://opennem.org.au/energy/nem
The grid was just fine.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Oct 05 2020 3:09am

kdog wrote:
Oct 01 2020 7:25am
2.2gig....thats huge!
By solar installations ,..yes...
Bur remember,..in a good year, that plant will only produce as much power (4 - 5 TWh), as a small (500MW) gas or coal fueled plant.. ( if the weather is co-operating !)
..And in the 11 months it took to build that plant, China opened 20+ new Coal plants, each one with more capacity than the solar plant.
And that 208 MWh of “storage”...is only there because it is essential for the safe operation of the unpredictable solar output. It will never serve any practical purpose as a supply resource.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Oct 05 2020 4:42am

jonescg wrote:
Oct 04 2020 11:26pm
Australia's main electricity grid - the NEM, enjoyed five days in a row of >50% renewable electricity for a few hours each time.
https://opennem.org.au/energy/nem
You might like to think that, but it is not true, as the largest RE contribution to that data is Rooftop Solar, which is neither a part of the grid supply, and is mostly unmeasured.
The RT data shown is only an estimate of what is thought to have been generated.
The grid was just fine.
.......you may like to see how often S Australia, ( the RE “Poster boy” of Australia), has been “ curtailing” (IE, limiting) their wind generators to prevent problems with the grid supply !
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ZeroEm   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Oct 05 2020 7:36am

Sounds like it would be cheaper to pull a trailer with a propane fueled generator to power your EV than a FuelCell.
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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Oct 05 2020 7:55am

Then they really ought to build the NSW SA interconnector so the state which needs it (NSW) can take it from the state that has too much (SA).

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ZeroEm   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Oct 05 2020 8:22am

Think about what they say about transferring power around from who has more. Just not with in a country/area, makes my head spin.
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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Oct 05 2020 2:19pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Oct 05 2020 7:36am
Sounds like it would be cheaper to pull a trailer with a propane fueled generator to power your EV than a FuelCell.
I don't know if they had a propane version of the Chevy Volt, but it was supposed to be transitional. As you say, the final version might not work out.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
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