Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Oct 27 2020 8:41am

Direct Subsidies for Carbon energy in the USA have a high dollar amount but the Carbon energy (and nuclear) that is produced is immense compared to wind and solar so the actual dollar per energy is very small. Natural gas gets almost nothing and oil and coal is very little. Here is the chart for dollars per MWh by source of electricity production in the USA
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Image
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sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Oct 27 2020 9:33am

A carbon tax doesn't have to result in a Yellow Vest rebellion. If it is revenue neutral it can actually be progressive. H.R 763 has been kicking around the USA House Of Representatives for a decade but maybe now the time will come for it to pass. It places a Carbon tax on all forms including embodied Carbon on finished goods. And then gives it back in a rebate, equally, to all Citizens. So if you are middle class to poor, you will actually get back more than you pay. While Carbon pricing is finally rolled in.
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https://citizensclimatelobby.org/
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JackFlorey   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Oct 27 2020 11:12am

Hillhater wrote:
Oct 27 2020 4:08am
Remind yourself Jack,...you live in a CA bubble, fantasy land effectively !
And I've lived in Boston - and New York.
Most people do not work !....at least not in the simple 9-5, drive and park in the lot, type of working life.
Right. Some people are retired; some are in schools. Some are toddlers or in nursing homes.

But of the people that work in the US, 76% drive their cars to work alone and park them there. 9% carpool. So 85% drive to work in a car and park it there.
And of those 9-5 rs , most either use public transport
. . . in which case they don't need to charge their cars every day.
park in multistory car parks
Yep. I parked in the bottom of a 3 story parking garage at my last job. That's where the EV chargers were. The PV system (416kW) was on the roof of the next parking structure over. Again it covered all our EV needs.
city side street, or suburban side streets near metro stations...none of which will ever be covered by pv panels.
======================
D.C.’s Metro Transit Authority to install 12.8 MW of solar canopies
By Kelly Pickerel | July 9, 2020

The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority will install solar carports over surface lots and above parking garages at four rail stations in Washington, D.C., through a $50 million deal with SunPower and Goldman Sachs Renewable Power (GSRP).
=======================
12.8mW means 37 megawatt-hours in DC in December. Which is enough to charge 7400 cars. In DC in December.
A large number of “workers” work night shifts also
Which means they can charge their cars at home via their own solar power system or via the parking-shade structure their apartment owners built.
Meanwhile most cars are running kids to school, shopping, errands, holidays/ rentals , etc
So your..... 9-5, park under a solar shade all day....car owner is very much a minor portion of cars in use.
85% of the people who commute to work.
But none of this is even worth thinking about, until someone produces an EV that the MAJORITY of folk can afford
Average cost of a car purchase in the US: $37,000
2020 Nissan Leaf: $32,000
2020 Cooper Mini E: $30,000

So that majority can buy a average priced car, or they can save some money and buy an EV. (Or buy either one used if they are really tight on money.)

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ZeroEm   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Oct 28 2020 8:40am

People and money are just crazy. Watch people buy new cars and lose thousands on the first day they drive it. Others buy a used car on payments and 6yr note and pay 30k for a 6k used cars. US dollars.

Payed 10k US for my used 2013 leaf the only used EV in town at that time in a city of 2 million. Had a Truck that was losing 3k value every year not counting maintenance and repairs. Have had the leaf for two years now figure that that I am even now and the car works great in a couple of years I will sell and up grade to a newer used EV but this time I know more about them. Don't think they cost to much.
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Cephalotus   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Cephalotus » Oct 28 2020 6:39pm

Hillhater wrote:
Oct 26 2020 5:06pm
Cephalotus wrote:
Oct 26 2020 9:22am

.....This is in cloudy Germany with 1000kWh/kWp per year ............
.........
Obviously such electricity prices do require total investment costs of around 600-700€/kWp. .....
........
If you build large PV power plants for 3000USD/kWp in US it's obviously not a cost problem of PV technology.....
Can you explain what these units are ..(1000kWh/kWp per year,? ..3000USD/kWp ? )....and where they come from ?
kWp = Kilowatt peak (installed peak capacity)

Rest should be self explaining.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Cephalotus » Oct 28 2020 6:41pm

The world’s best solar power schemes now offer the “cheapest…electricity in history” with the technology cheaper than coal and gas in most major countries.
That is according to the International Energy Agency’s World Energy Outlook 2020.


https://www.carbonbrief.org/solar-is-no ... nfirms-iea

They are just 5 years behind reality.

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Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Oct 28 2020 9:08pm

Cephalotus wrote:
Oct 28 2020 6:39pm
Hillhater wrote:
Oct 26 2020 5:06pm
Cephalotus wrote:
Oct 26 2020 9:22am

.....This is in cloudy Germany with 1000kWh/kWp per year ............
.........
Obviously such electricity prices do require total investment costs of around 600-700€/kWp. .....
........
If you build large PV power plants for 3000USD/kWp in US it's obviously not a cost problem of PV technology.....
Can you explain what these units are ..(1000kWh/kWp per year,? ..3000USD/kWp ? )....and where they come from ?
kWp = Kilowatt peak (installed peak capacity)
Rest should be self explaining.
Sure, i know what kWp means (nameplate/Max capacity at peak output..a Theoretical figure !)
..But the rest needs a LOT of explaining..

And kWh/kWp per year is a very unusual eay of stating a 11.4 CF.. ! Are you deliberately being obtuse ?
Bur more importantly , where do you get that 600-700E/kWp figure from ?
The most recent cost figures i can find for Germany’s utility solar plants are ..
Meuro.. , costing E140m for the 70MW first stage...IE E2000/kWp.. (us$2600/kWp)
Neuhardenberg....costing E280m , for 145MW,...E2000/kWp
Templin ....E205m, for 128MW ....E1600/kWp ....( us$2000/kWp)
....all of which seems to be in line with other solar plants worldwide !
Cost data for the latest 187MW installation seem very elusive ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

Cephalotus   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Cephalotus » Oct 29 2020 6:48am

Hillhater wrote:
Oct 28 2020 9:08pm

And kWh/kWp per year is a very unusual eay of stating a 11.4 CF.. ! Are you deliberately being obtuse ?
Over here almost noone in the energy sector uses capacity factor, but "Volllaststunden" 1.000kWh/kWp is the same as 1000 Volllaststunden
Bur more importantly , where do you get that 600-700E/kWp figure from ?
That's the typical price for utility solar over here. Even 400-500€/kWp is possible.

1 kWp PV capacity produces around 20.000kWh in 20 years in Germany.

20.000kWh @5ct/kWh = 1000 Euro. (that's a typical price for a PV tender in Germany, see picture above)

So obviously the installation cost needs to be significantly below 1000€/kWp, because there are some extra costs during operating time and investors typically expect some benefit from their investment, too.
The most recent cost figures i can find for Germany’s utility solar plants are ..
Meuro.. , costing E140m for the 70MW first stage...IE E2000/kWp.. (us$2600/kWp)
Neuhardenberg....costing E280m , for 145MW,...E2000/kWp
Templin ....E205m, for 128MW ....E1600/kWp ....( us$2000/kWp)
....all of which seems to be in line with other solar plants worldwide !
All three from 2012. This is the year 2020, not the year 2012.

Afaik the cheapest solar power plant is located in Portugal producing at 1.3 USct/kWh (See WEO 2020)

If you want to know more about PV in Germany with some more up to date date than US Wikipedia use:
https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/d ... ermany.pdf

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ZeroEm   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Oct 29 2020 7:00am

I was hung up on the money thing but now it does not matter what it cost. Time to move forward, stop hanging on to the 1800's.
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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Oct 29 2020 8:58am

ZeroEm wrote:
Oct 29 2020 7:00am
I was hung up on the money thing but now it does not matter what it cost. Time to move forward, stop hanging on to the 1800's.
^^ This :bigthumb:

The late South Australian mayor of Port Augusta, Joy Baluch was once pressed on the cost of a renewable energy hub for her town, and some douche (I think it was Dick Smith) asked "But what about the costs?!" Baluch, who at the time was dying of cancer, quickly retorted - "So what - it's just money!" They were dying in the toxic dust and hotter drier climate of an already hot and dry town. And all these folks can think about is how it will be paid for.
Her husband died from lung cancer stemming from the coal fired power station on the gulf.

They named the bridge over the gulf after her.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Oct 29 2020 9:12am

Cephalotus wrote:
Oct 29 2020 6:48am
.........
If you want to know more about PV in Germany with some more up to date date than US Wikipedia use:
https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/d ... ermany.pdf
Yes, i have come across that ( totally biased) document....
...much propaganda, .but it tells nothing of the actual cost of individual installations
Until you can actually reference some real data, rather than just expecting me to believe you....i will have to go with those published in Wiki
Why dont you find the proposed cost for the latest “Weesow-Willmersdorf” solar park ?
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Cephalotus   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Cephalotus » Oct 29 2020 10:00am

Hillhater wrote:
Oct 29 2020 9:12am

Why dont you find the proposed cost for the latest “Weesow-Willmersdorf” solar park ?
ENBW as the Investor does not tell the cost.

https://www.energate-messenger.de/news/ ... dern-real-

They expect the solar park to run for 40 years and they expect it to be profitably without any subsidies.

The market price for solar electricity in 2020 so far can be seen here:

https://www.netztransparenz.de/EEG/Mark ... Marktwerte

....

Cost estimation is 100 Million Euro (this includes connecting to the 110kV grid via new transformators and 7km new grid line and the construction of many biotops as a "compensation" for animals & Co)

https://www.rnz.de/politik/hintergrund_ ... 50137.html

100 Mio. Euro / 187 MWp = 535€/kWp

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Oct 29 2020 7:04pm

Cephalotus wrote:
Oct 29 2020 10:00am
The market price for solar electricity
.
"The most recent cost figures i can find for Germany’s utility solar plants are ..
Meuro.. , costing E140m for the 70MW first stage...IE E2000/kWp.. (us$2600/kWp)
Neuhardenberg....costing E280m , for 145MW,...E2000/kWp
Templin ....E205m, for 128MW ....E1600/kWp ....( us$2000/kWp)
....all of which seems to be in line with other solar plants worldwide"
.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany

Total project costs for recent grid scale solar projects as listed seem to be 4X higher than what you keep telling us. Do you dispute this information?

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Oct 30 2020 1:06am

No, he does not dispute the costss, ..
....he just says they are out of date, and suggests that costs have reduced 75% since 2012 !
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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Oct 30 2020 3:24am

Costs have definitely reduced a lot in the last 8 years. Unsubsidized solar panels in Australia are currently 42c/W. The subsidies are more or less wound up for residential rooftop solar anyway - 3c/kWh in WA and the STCs will be pretty much gone next year. As far as I'm concerned PV doesn't need any more subsidizing - it's cheap enough on its own.

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Oct 30 2020 5:28am

Just for the parts for a 10kW roof top system costs $1.48/ Watt.
With micro-inverters:
https://unboundsolar.com/1895330/unboun ... 20w-panels
.
With voltage optimizers:
https://unboundsolar.com/1895132/unboun ... 20w-panels
.
A 50kW commercial three phase grid tie system costs $0.82/ Watt with no racks.
.
https://unboundsolar.com/1893204/unboun ... ll-modules
.
Add $0.20/ Watt for rooftop flat racks or $0.30 with tilt
.
https://unboundsolar.com/6913221/ironri ... acking-kit
.
A ground mount rack system will obviously cost considerably more for parts and installation since there is no roof to anchor to, You would have to sink posts or tubs of concrete and use a much more substantial rack. "Call for price". Add ??? for a single axis tracking system and automated wash system as was used in the Solar Star project.
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https://unboundsolar.com/6932930/ironri ... for-3-pipe
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This is just for the parts. For grid scale installations add labor, liquid fueled heavy machine expense, land price, high voltage interconnect, service roads, security fencing, ect.
.
The newest grid scale solar farm in the USA was completed in 2019 at a cost of $3.00/ Watt. $3000/ kWp if you prefer. Actual documented pricing. The capacity factor in South West USA desert with trackers can exceed 30%. All of the grid scale systems I see installed at 44* North Latitude NY State USA are fixed at fixed 33* tilt and yield 13% annual CF, best historical month 22% in July, and 4% average every year in January with a worst case performance documented of 19 of 23 days at essentially zero.
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Cephalotus   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Cephalotus » Oct 30 2020 3:33pm

Hillhater wrote:
Oct 30 2020 1:06am
No, he does not dispute the costss, ..
....he just says they are out of date, and suggests that costs have reduced 75% since 2012 !
Feed in tariff for utility solar was 21ct/kWh in late 2012 and has falled to 5ct/kWh until the end of 2017

see green line and white+black framed dots...

So yes, price for utility solar dropped more than 75% in just 5 years in Germany.

It should be similar in US and elsewhere. (see actual WEO chart for confirmation)
FIT_solar-Germany.jpg
FIT_solar-Germany.jpg (116.33 KiB) Viewed 105 times

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Oct 30 2020 6:18pm

Feed in tarrifs are market determined ( supply/demand ). ...and is unrelated to construction/installation costs.
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kdog   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by kdog » Oct 30 2020 8:41pm

Has anyone here come across the cost of a new earth... I looked on eBay but couldnt find anything. Just a ball park figure would be good. Not sure if I'll need one yet but maybe when the kids are a bit older....
I found the price of an asteroid $10quadrillion (usd) but I reckon I'll need more space.

Seriously cost is a joke argument.
They naysayers are like it'll cost X trillions to go green. But as soon as someone wants to spin positive vibes on cost they say oh we're stimulating the economy and creating jobs.
Cost is a BS argument when the other option is ruining the habitability our environment.
The top 10% could, IDK maybe harden up and fork out a few extra C/kwh "gasp". Yes I'm including myself... being in a rich country.

We're quite happy to spend trillions on war...

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Oct 31 2020 12:31am

Just spending money wont solve every problem.
Especially if you spend money on the wrong solution for the wrong problem
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TheBeastie   10 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by TheBeastie » Oct 31 2020 4:40am

Hyundai sells over 10,000 Nexo hydrogen cars in S. Korea

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud= ... &np=1&mp=1
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/hyundai ... tic-sales/
Image

As fuel-cells ramp up, I look forward to when we see 10,000 of these flying around...
Speed Kills Range, 10mph = 46 miles range, 20mph = 20 miles, 30mph = 8 miles rangehttps://goo.gl/1JNL53
Over Charging Kills ur battery bit.ly/1hzWKl4
Consider PAS as your only throttle https://goo.gl/Kg1F8F
Fuel-Cell is the ultimate battery coupled with 4th-gen Nuclear
https://goo.gl/TcKtHs https://goo.gl/ZhFFot https://goo.gl/gfa215
10 Square Miles of solar panels = 0.12GW average power! https://goo.gl/Ub1S39

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ZeroEm   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Oct 31 2020 5:18am

y kdog » Oct 30 2020 8:41pm

Has anyone here come across the cost of a new earth... I looked on eBay but couldnt find anything. Just a ball park figure would be good. Not sure if I'll need one yet but maybe when the kids are a bit older....
I found the price of an asteroid $10quadrillion (usd) but I reckon I'll need more space.

Seriously cost is a joke argument.
They naysayers are like it'll cost X trillions to go green. But as soon as someone wants to spin positive vibes on cost they say oh we're stimulating the economy and creating jobs.
Cost is a BS argument when the other option is ruining the habitability our environment.
The top 10% could, IDK maybe harden up and fork out a few extra C/kwh "gasp". Yes I'm including myself... being in a rich country.

We're quite happy to spend trillions on war...
I remember in High School in the 70's, talking about running out of oil and coal in 20 yrs and the climate would not be a problem. If we would have moved on it would not have been a problem. There was push back and they poured the money into finding more and keeping the status quo, not moving on. Remember the US crushing EV's and going back to ICE. It is 50's years later now. The old arguments just don't work anymore the time for cheap replacements is 30 yrs past. Time to spend money and move on.
abundans cautela non nocet
2019 Performer E-Trike 9w/km
2013 Nissan Leaf S 7 bars 331.5w/KM

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Oct 31 2020 5:49am

Hillhater wrote:
Oct 30 2020 6:18pm
Feed in tarrifs are market determined ( supply/demand ). ...and is unrelated to construction/installation costs.
Germany is running out of money and of the will of the people to support new solar installations so subsidies like feed in tariffs are being reduced. Cephalotus (and green magazines) refuses to accept reality on the total cost information of new solar farms that we post since their job is as a paid cheerleader to government for the agenda of green growth. Along with publications like Clean Technica they are attempting to mislead the underinformed into thinking we can continue to increase growth of our extractive consumption worldwide if we would just switch to rebuildable energy. I would have hoped that after all of the information I have posted here over the last three years it would be obvious that in order to keep from stripping the planet raw of all nonrenewable resources that future life on Earth will need (that the 3 billion people of the global South have never even started to enjoy), a new degrowth system is required.

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ZeroEm   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Oct 31 2020 6:06am

continue to increase growth of our extractive consumption worldwide
I agree, People need to quit using so much energy. Just looking at myself and my usage and what it would cost to power everything, a person comes to only one conclusion. The less that is used, the less that is needed. I am sure Germany's power issues are much different than where I am in Texas, USA. We have a lot of land and Sun most of the year but the down fall is we have oil and nat gas and the addiction to use it.
abundans cautela non nocet
2019 Performer E-Trike 9w/km
2013 Nissan Leaf S 7 bars 331.5w/KM

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Oct 31 2020 9:30am

ZeroEm wrote:
Oct 31 2020 6:06am
continue to increase growth of our extractive consumption worldwide
I agree, People need to quit using so much energy.
It's not just direct energy use but also a big issue of consumption of embodied energy and raw materials in our "stuff", in our infrastructure, in our food, ect. As fossil Carbon, Phosphorous, Copper, ect, leave us either by decision or depletion, attempts to replace or displace these at the current immense scale after the Great Acceleration of the last 70 years, we are going to come up way short. Things will necessarily be smaller and simple once again in the future.
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