EV Myths - add your own!

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 22 2018 8:16am

billvon wrote:
Jul 21 2018 9:09pm
Hillhater wrote:
Jul 20 2018 11:37pm
You cannot say EVs will save any significant money on service costs.
Other than in reality.

I would suggest leasing/owning one someday if you expect anyone to take you even a bit seriously when you claim to be an expert on them.
The reality is in the quoted manufacturers costs...not you wishful imagination.
:?: .when have i claimed to be an expert on EVs ?
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by LockH » Jul 22 2018 8:16am

Hehe... So far, in this thread "Search found 1 match: pedal"... as in
... They're cheaper to operate than a pedal bicycle...
(Oh REALLY?)

BUT. Zero mention re pedaling from stops, up hills, etc to "assist" the battery cells by shaving off peak power outs. To extend ranges per charge but also to extend the life of the cells ("battery") before EVentual recycling and replacement. Where the "name of the game" is overall lowest costs per mile.

One term in Europe is "EPAC". As in Electric PEDAL-ASSISTED Cycle. So the next time yah catch an ebiker saying "Look Ma! I don't have to pedal!" ... It's like that old joke "Look Ma! No Hands!" (and "Look Ma! No teeth!")

... and there's alway the Faux Pedaling too, of course. :mrgreen:
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DanGT86   10 kW

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by DanGT86 » Jul 22 2018 9:29am

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 22 2018 8:08am
DanGT86 wrote:
Jul 21 2018 11:41am
... EVs do not have more complex electrical systems to fail. They just have one big one that historically is very reliable. One big motor and one big battery pack are not nearly as complex as the array of electromechanical sensors and control devices in an ICE powetrain. Not by a long shot!...
:shock: you really think that ??...if so you are delusional !
Not worth debating that point.

Im ok being Delusional and not debating it further but I'm curious which part of my statement you are talking about.
-ev has simpler electrical system
Or
-ev parts typically reliable

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Punx0r » Jul 22 2018 12:19pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 22 2018 7:48am

Do a little research at least ! ..and try to read the posts before you reply.
As i said.. Those costs are for EACH 20k km service..and continue for the duration of the warranty..
Frankly it's often hard to understand what you are driving at.

So, for the ICE car did you quote the ALL the service costs or just the "small" 20K oil change one?

Your refusal to accept the inherent simplicity of battery + inverter + brushless motor over the electromechanical marvel that is an ICE is baffling.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Alan B » Jul 22 2018 2:47pm

Part of the difficulty of comparing maintenance costs is the manufacturer's inflation. I think they have artificially inflated the costs of the EV services to make them similar to ICE. The reality is they should be much lower. The substantial cost of dozens of oil changes, filters, transmission oil changes, coolant changes over whatever interval is compared should be missing. There should be almost nothing additional on the EV side (and what there is should be very low in cost). The rest of the costs should be identical, aside for the few that are much cheaper on the EV side. So in theory these costs should be significantly lower on the EV side. That they are reportedly similar on paper shows that the manufacturer has done something different with these, such as recommending lots of unnecessary things, inflating the cost of them, or just making up costs to keep their service departments profitable. I always wonder how many of these "inspections" are actually done or just checked off and charged. I've seen videos where they have documented that many of the services are often skipped, especially if they don't help justify an additional cost service that the owner is asked to pay for.

For those doing their own service, the EV is far cheaper and easier to maintain. For those having dealer service done, the cost is whatever the dealer decides it to be.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by wturber » Jul 22 2018 6:06pm

billvon wrote:
Jul 17 2018 11:30am
DanGT86 wrote:
Jul 16 2018 9:22am
Many also try to tell me that we'll fight wars over lithium resources the way we do with oil.
We might. California might invade Wyoming. (Or Nevada; after all, they are closer.)
http://www.latimes.com/local/california ... story.html
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by LockH » Jul 22 2018 10:07pm

ES changed my life (for the waaaaay better).

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by alan » Jul 23 2018 8:48am

Alan B wrote:
Jul 22 2018 2:47pm
I always wonder how many of these "inspections" are actually done or just checked off and charged. I've seen videos where they have documented that many of the services are often skipped, especially if they don't help justify an additional cost service that the owner is asked to pay for.
I asked my dealer how the less than 2 mile change in the odometer from drop-off to pick-up was consistent with the check mark on the safety inspection for the 5 mile road test. His red face got me that and the following oil change at no cost.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by billvon » Jul 23 2018 8:52pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 22 2018 8:16am
The reality is in the quoted manufacturers costs...not you wishful imagination.
Nope. Reality is what is real; it's what maintenance people have to do. You will experience it yourself if you ever buy an EV. (The kind of EV you are talking about here, not a bike you built.) The stuff you are reading on the Internet is marketing.
--bill von

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 23 2018 9:01pm

So, you are saying, if you buy a new Leaf, or Tesla, you do not have to comply with the manufacturers service schedule to retain full warranty cover ?
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by jonescg » Jul 23 2018 9:24pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 23 2018 9:01pm
So, you are saying, if you buy a new Leaf, or Tesla, you do not have to comply with the manufacturers service schedule to retain full warranty cover ?
As far as the ACCC is concerned, the warranty is still valid provided the vehicle has been maintained, so that would include following some kind of service schedule. You can save a small fortune by going to a different (cheaper) dealer, or doing it yourself and the warranty is still valid. And in the case of a Leaf, bleeding the brakes and checking coolant are annual/bi-annual tasks which would satisfy the service expectations.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 23 2018 10:19pm

jonescg wrote:
Jul 23 2018 9:24pm

As far as the ACCC is concerned, the warranty is still valid provided the vehicle has been maintained, so that would include following some kind of service schedule. You can save a small fortune by going to a different (cheaper) dealer, or doing it yourself and the warranty is still valid. And in the case of a Leaf, bleeding the brakes and checking coolant are annual/bi-annual tasks which would satisfy the service expectations.
Certainly in Australia.....but of course you can also do that with any ICE as well .
How many owners would buy a new car, and then deliberately avoid dealer servicing ?
But im not too sure how many "non dealership" service guys are trained, equopped, or even willing , to do the annual systems checks and battery status reports as required to satisfy the warranty .?
Infact, Nissan only have a few trained EV service centers that can officially work on a leaf.
In the case of Tesla, i suspect you will find it even harder to go "non dealership" for services, and even harder to convince tesla that any work was done by qualified technicians.(even if there are any in Au that would know what to do .?)
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Alan B » Jul 23 2018 10:24pm

Typically only certain things are legally required to maintain the warranty, such as the oil changes. The inspections are hard to prove or disprove. Somebody check the case law.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 23 2018 10:42pm

Alan B wrote:
Jul 23 2018 10:24pm
Typically only certain things are legally required to maintain the warranty, such as the oil changes. The inspections are hard to prove or disprove. Somebody check the case law.
Im sure it varies from country to country, but...
Generally, a qualified technician has to sign the service document to confirm the checks have been completed.
There are various checks. (brake performance, pad thickness, shock adsorber response, battery status, etc etc) that are recorded and reported.
Service records and costs are like insurance, not really needed at all, just to give peace of mind against future events.
You should also be aware that a vehicle without a full verified service history is valued much less when it comes to resell or trade in.
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Alan B » Jul 23 2018 10:51pm

There are laws against companies insisting on getting service from them, or not being able to DIY mainatenance. Not sure what the situation is now, but used to be you just had to keep receipts for oil and filters. Things like inspections weren't legally binding for warranties. When did it change, or did it?

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by LockH » Jul 23 2018 11:13pm

Hehe... ONE "problem" with watts "legal" is the "civil servants" watt tend to overlook watts possible. :mrgreen:
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 24 2018 12:32am

Alan B wrote:
Jul 23 2018 10:51pm
There are laws against companies insisting on getting service from them, or not being able to DIY mainatenance. Not sure what the situation is now, but used to be you just had to keep receipts for oil and filters. Things like inspections weren't legally binding for warranties. When did it change, or did it?
Certainly there are various laws ( lemon laws ?) , in Australia it the Consumer protection act, which i believe is one of the most stringent , and as Jonescg said , basicly it prevents the manufacturer insisting that only authorised dealers are approved for warranty compliant servicing.
..But the recommended servicing must still be done by a qualified technician !
I would have thought in the US, not having recommended servicing done by a recognised tech, is taking a huge liability risk in the event of an accident ?
and again ..EV or ICE can both be treated that way..so what is the point you are making ?
But FFS , you are all clutching at straws here, thinking that any rational owner is going to spend $50k, -$150k on a car , and then look for ways to skip service costs !! :roll:
im no fan of dealerships, or unnecessary inspections and costs,...but i do know a little about maintenance systems and practices,.. enough to know that the most useful and cost effective maintenance is planned, regular, inspection and lubrication. which is what most of these services are. If you think you can do that properly ..( do you have the diagnostic tools and equipment with codes to download and analyse systems data ?)..on an EV ...or even a modern ICE,.. then good luck.
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Punx0r » Jul 24 2018 5:07pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 24 2018 12:32am
i do know a little about maintenance systems and practices,.. enough to know that the most useful and cost effective maintenance is planned, regular, inspection and lubrication. which is what most of these services are.
So true! An ICE requires regular lubricant changes throughout it's life. A brushless motor (or an inverter or a traction battery) on the other hand requires none, ever. If the motor has a gear reduction then it will almost certainly be filled-for-life.

The only maintenance you can do on any of these parts is maybe a coolant change if they are liquid-cooled and there's no reason that can't be at 5+ year intervals due to the lower demands these components put on the coolant.

Inspections aren't servicing or maintenance. Sure, *maybe* a diagnostic could pick up a weak cell group in a battery, failing insulation in a motor or a dying IGBT in an inverter, but the best it's going to do is prevent a catastrophic failure stranding the vehicle - it's unlikely to reduce the amount or cost of the necessary repairs.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by DanGT86 » Jul 24 2018 5:36pm

Here is another one:
EVs REQUIRE unreasonably expensive charging stations be installed at your home.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Alan B » Jul 24 2018 7:52pm

DanGT86 wrote:
Jul 24 2018 5:36pm
Here is another one:
EVs REQUIRE unreasonably expensive charging stations be installed at your home.
That's definitely a myth. We have never installed anything, and have found 120V charging to be adequate. I did buy some 240V charging gear but it was neither expensive nor required. One of these days I will install it.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by DanGT86 » Jul 24 2018 9:12pm

I'm in the same boat. Been using the 120v opportunity charger as the full time unit for 2 years. My next purchase will be a portable 220v unit both as a backup and because it would be nice to have the option for 3kw instead of 1.5kw through the 110v. That's about $400 new. The home charging station thing is a big one that people ask all the time though. Its as if a car that plugs in like an iphone charger is just too good to be true.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by billvon » Jul 24 2018 10:00pm

Punx0r wrote:
Jul 24 2018 5:07pm
Inspections aren't servicing or maintenance. Sure, *maybe* a diagnostic could pick up a weak cell group in a battery, failing insulation in a motor or a dying IGBT in an inverter, but the best it's going to do is prevent a catastrophic failure stranding the vehicle - it's unlikely to reduce the amount or cost of the necessary repairs.
In addition, you can do them yourself via a OBD-II scanner. They now sell an OBD-II to Bluetooth converter that gives any smartphone access to the car's internal diagnostics for about $5.

For example, for the Leaf you can get the Leafscan dedicated display which is wired to the port and gives you all kinds of diagnostic information. You can also get Leaf Spy which is an app that runs on your smartphone. Shows you individual battery voltages, the activity of the battery balancer, pack temperatures, GIDs vs range etc etc. Any weak cell will show up there very quickly.
--bill von

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 24 2018 11:53pm

Punx0r wrote:
Jul 24 2018 5:07pm
Hillhater wrote:
Jul 24 2018 12:32am
i do know a little about maintenance systems and practices,.. enough to know that the most useful and cost effective maintenance is planned, regular, inspection and lubrication. which is what most of these services are.
So true! An ICE requires regular lubricant changes throughout it's life. A brushless motor (or an inverter or a traction battery) on the other hand requires none, ever. If the motor has a gear reduction then it will almost certainly be filled-for-life...
Tesla shedule is to change the transmission oil at 12500 miles , then every other service.
Leaf id to check level and topup every service.
Punx0r wrote:
Jul 24 2018 5:07pm
The only maintenance you can do on any of these parts is maybe a coolant change if they are liquid-cooled and there's no reason that can't be at 5+ year intervals due to the lower demands these components put on the coolant.
That is just your opinion. The manufacturers have a more experienced view.
Punx0r wrote:
Jul 24 2018 5:07pm
Inspections aren't servicing or maintenance. Sure, *maybe* a diagnostic could pick up a weak cell group in a battery, failing insulation in a motor or a dying IGBT in an inverter, but the best it's going to do is prevent a catastrophic failure stranding the vehicle - it's unlikely to reduce the amount or cost of the necessary repairs.
:roll: Its a good job you dont work in aircraft maintenance..or any practical cemmercial industry come to that !
inspection is the very foundation of any maintenance program, and the frequency of the inspections is carefully determined to detect faults BEFORE failure occures (think of that aircraft again!). Cars are no different.
Electronics are not "FIT AND FORGET" components. Industries have been using these DC drives and power electronics systems for many years, and there are some comprehensive maintenance schemes even for what might seem a simple control cabinet with all solid state components, simple things like cleaning heat sinks, and filters, checking cooling fans , thermal imaging of all components , cable runs, and connectors, to check for hot spots....before a fire destroys the whole cabinet or plant !
Are you happy for a cell to fail or just "go weak" without any warning ?
There will be hundreds of high voltage, high power , connections in an EV....none of those likely to dry up or work loose ?
So, there is much that could be done, but maybe some EV makers just dont worry.
That "carastrophic failure" might just strand the car....or it might burn it to the ground !
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 25 2018 12:02am

billvon wrote:
Jul 24 2018 10:00pm
In addition, you can do them yourself via a OBD-II scanner. They now sell an OBD-II to Bluetooth converter that gives any smartphone access to the car's internal diagnostics for about $5.
Great, so do you think average Joe Owner is going to go that way ?
...remember most owners even pay someone else to wash the car , never mind scan diagnostics !
The average owner is a driver , not a technician.
And you wont get far with that on a Tesla..even though it has aN OBD2 port
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by markz » Jul 25 2018 1:59am

Some/Most/Great Percentage of people even pay extra to sit their fatass down as someone else pumps their gas for them.
Not to mention sit their fatass down to get their fatty foods handed to them through a small window.

On DIY stuff, you are allowed to do your own oil changes, coolant changes, brakes etc. - Just keep your receipts and make notes.

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0 ... aintenance

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