EV Myths - add your own!

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
alan   100 W

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by alan » Jul 20 2018 9:33am

billvon wrote:
Jul 18 2018 11:04am
Changing BRAKE FLUID? Are you serious?
The brake fluid absorbs water right out of the air (unless your brake lines are hermetically sealed!). Over time, the water content will increase to dangerous levels, meaning using the brakes will heat up the brake fluid enough to cause water boiling, which is dangerous. My BMW i3 has one recommended service, and that is flushing the brake lines every 24 months. Most cars spec it more often by specifying every so many oil changes to also include the brake flush.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by major » Jul 20 2018 1:43pm

Myth:

Inside the wheel is the best place for the motor.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by DanGT86 » Jul 20 2018 7:47pm

Oh yeah. I see that one a lot in publications about new tech in concept cars. Dont get me wrong, torque vectoring is cool and everything but lets not keep building EVs at the top of the market price range.

I'd love it if every car were available with an electric motor option instead of the ice. No mini aero mirrors and wind tunnel testing required. I can live without the extra sound deadening too. Just slap an electric motor under the hood and a big lithium pack where the gas tank was and charge regular car money!

I know its not that easy and probably not profitable but its a shame we can't get an OEM grade version of the types of conversions we see people do at home.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by John in CR » Jul 20 2018 10:11pm

DanGT86 wrote:
Jul 20 2018 7:47pm
... Just slap an electric motor under the hood and a big lithium pack where the gas tank was and charge regular car money!

I know its not that easy and probably not profitable but its a shame we can't get an OEM grade version of the types of conversions we see people do at home.
It's close to that easy. If GM made an electric car that users liked using lead batteries (the EV1), then it's a no-brainer with current battery tech. I actually hope the current big car manufacturers aren't the ones to introduce low priced, good performance, simple, electric cars. I have no problem with China or India leading the way after seeing the complex beasts the car manufacturers are developing. Too bad their existing ICE powered cars are overly big and heavy, because otherwise conversions to electric could be a great way to forward the movement.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by John in CR » Jul 20 2018 10:16pm

major wrote:
Jul 20 2018 1:43pm
Myth:

Inside the wheel is the best place for the motor.
That's not a myth at all. They just need to get the motors light enough so the effect on unsprung weight is minimized. Otherwise there is no valid argument to the contrary.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Alan B » Jul 20 2018 10:40pm

I've owned a used Leaf for several years, and the maintenance costs in my experience are lower than ICE vehicles. There just isn't much that needs replacing and inspections don't cost as much as actually repairing things. On the ICE the engine oil, transmission oil and coolant replacements and filters add up to a tidy sum whereas on the EV those are essentially nonexistent. Even the brakes rarely wear out due to regen. Sure the EV costs are not zero, but they are a fraction of ICE costs. Mechanical complexity, heat, wear, friction, high forces, chemical processes drive costs, and the number of moving parts and other cost drivers on an EV is a small fraction of an ICE. I suspect an ICE automatic transmission has more moving parts than an entire EV. Until you've owned at least one EV you probably won't believe it, but there are a lot of EV owners that know this to be the case.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Alan B » Jul 20 2018 10:49pm

How much of vehicle weight is driven by legislative requirements?

The A pillar has to be so strong these days it creates a significant blind spot. How many pedestrians and cyclists are killed by this blind spot??

Exploding airbags are very hazardous, and drive cost and weight of vehicles. Are they the optimal solution to the problems they are trying to solve?

EV battery weight is mostly not the battery. At least in the Leaf the 20kw battery weighs 600 plus pounds. Is that really necessary? This is improving, otherwise the Bolt's battery would be 1800 pounds. :)

Legislation specifies things it should not, or at least not in the way it does. Heavy glass windshields are required, rather than adequate windshield performance. Lower aerodynamic resistance makes windshields even larger and the weight goes up. Windshields are easily damaged, especially on more aero vehicles (which is very profitable for someone).

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 20 2018 10:51pm

John in CR wrote:
Jul 20 2018 10:16pm
major wrote:
Jul 20 2018 1:43pm
Myth:

Inside the wheel is the best place for the motor.
That's not a myth at all. They just need to get the motors light enough so the effect on unsprung weight is minimized. Otherwise there is no valid argument to the contrary.
Well, how light is light enough ? 10kg, 5kg,1kg, ??
But they could just position the DD motors centrally in the axle (sprung weight) using proven Shaft & CV technology for the drive..?
I wonder why no one has ?
Maybe because then they also have to be able to produce enough torque to haul the loaded family sedan up that car park ramp from a standstill !....I suspect that Torque vs size (weight) is the real issue.
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by major » Jul 20 2018 10:54pm

John in CR wrote:
Jul 20 2018 10:16pm
major wrote:
Jul 20 2018 1:43pm
Myth:

Inside the wheel is the best place for the motor.
That's not a myth at all. They just need to get the motors light enough so the effect on unsprung weight is minimized. Otherwise there is no valid argument to the contrary.
The best place for the EV battery is in the glovebox. They just need to get it small enough to fit. Otherwise there is no valid argument to the contrary.

Same logic, isn't it? Or WTH, put the motor, controller and battery in the wheel. Trouble is by the time the "ifs" are realized, transportation probably won't be using wheels.

Cheers,

major

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by John in CR » Jul 20 2018 11:21pm

No, that's not the best place for the battery...too high and not centered, and there's no need to weight

The hubs and wheels are already quite heavy, so adding some more weight to include the motors is not much of a stretch. The gains in doing away with a drive shaft, differential, gearbox, and all losses and points of failure and need of maintenance involved already far outweigh the detriment of unsprung weight.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 20 2018 11:37pm

Alan B wrote:
Jul 20 2018 10:40pm
I've owned a used Leaf for several years, and the maintenance costs in my experience are lower than ICE vehicles. There just isn't much that needs replacing and inspections don't cost as much as actually repairing things. On the ICE the engine oil, transmission oil and coolant replacements and filters add up to a tidy sum whereas on the EV those are essentially nonexistent. Even the brakes rarely wear out due to regen. Sure the EV costs are not zero, but they are a fraction of ICE costs. Mechanical complexity drives costs, and the number of moving parts on an EV is a small fraction of an ICE. I suspect an ICE automatic transmission has more moving parts than an entire EV. Until you've owned at least one EV you probably won't believe it, but there are a lot of EV owners that know this to be the case.
Alan , im happy to compare the details of service cost if you really think its relavent..but the simple fact is that the cost of service parts and materials on any modern car , EV, or ICE, is minor compared to the labour cost.
But i am not going to debate the cost savings of DIY maintenance
Servicing is all about inspection and the dealer trying upselling services etc to the customer.
IF you want to have your car serviced ..for warranty, safety, problems fixed etc , (as most normal owners do), then you have to accept the costs..if you dont have it professionally serviced then the risk is yours, EV, or ICE.
But lets keep comparing apples to apples..
Any time you hand your keys to a dealer you hand him your wallet.
Costs vary, but Nissan state the Leaf service costs at $400 (+ parts etc) for the first 20k kms (12,500m).
Tesla charges $600 for annual service for the S& X models.
Those are not dissimilar to any comparable size ICE..
..EG, the Nissan Pulsar is $540 for the 20k km service.
.....BMW, 3-4 series $350 for each 20k km service.
.....BMW 5-6 series $500 ..........20k services
All official manufacturers prices.
You cannot say EVs will save any significant money on service costs.
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 20 2018 11:53pm

John in CR wrote:
Jul 20 2018 11:21pm
The hubs and wheels are already quite heavy, so adding some more weight to include the motors is not much of a stretch. The gains in doing away with a drive shaft, differential, gearbox, and all losses and points of failure and need of maintenance involved already far outweigh the detriment of unsprung weight.
I wonder if you have actually owned a recent model ICE ?
I have had a few..more than the average i would say..at one point i had 5 all at the same time (family)!
Mechanical problems, even brake wear, or clutch issues, have been non existent across the past 20 + yrs and 15 or so cars in that time. Infact, ( you wont believe this). the only "failures" i can recall, have been batteries...lots of them ?.. One or two on every car !. No kidding !! So yes, that is mature simple lead technology, :shock:
..i hope they do better with those big complex EV packs :wink:
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Alan B » Jul 20 2018 11:54pm

Oil changes at the dealer are not free, and there are a lot of them in 100K miles.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by John in CR » Jul 21 2018 12:12am

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 20 2018 11:53pm
John in CR wrote:
Jul 20 2018 11:21pm
The hubs and wheels are already quite heavy, so adding some more weight to include the motors is not much of a stretch. The gains in doing away with a drive shaft, differential, gearbox, and all losses and points of failure and need of maintenance involved already far outweigh the detriment of unsprung weight.
I wonder if you have actually owned a recent model ICE ?
I have had a few..more than the average i would say..at one point i had 5 all at the same time (family)!
Mechanical problems, even brake wear, or clutch issues, have been non existent across the past 20 + yrs and 15 or so cars in that time. Infact, ( you wont believe this). the only "failures" i can recall, have been batteries...lots of them ?.. One or two on every car !. No kidding !! So yes, that is mature simple lead technology, :shock:
..i hope they do better with those big complex EV packs :wink:
Ah, one of those clueless types with money to burn getting a new car every few years. You paid for the problems you didn't experience through a 40-50% depreciation in value, so the subsequent owners saw all the repairs and maintenance that you unwittingly paid for.

Regarding the batteries, the idiot engineers didn't factor in the toll on the batteries required by all the additional electronic gadgets they hung on the cars, so of course the batteries wear out much quicker since lead acid technology was already mature. To get the same battery life as 30 years ago would require a much bigger heavier lead acid battery.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 21 2018 12:29am

Sorry to burst your bubble John, but i have never bought a new car...its against my instincts !
But i will admit I often choose a dealer ex demo model, 12-18 months old and negotiate a deal that is at least 20-30% below list. Otherwise i am comfortable being that guy cleaning up a 3 yr old "fully depreciated" one owner vehicle..providing it has a full dealer service history !! :wink:
In a previous life i would deliberately buy problem cars,.. damaged , sick, urgent sale type issues, sort them out run them for a while, then sell them on for a profit. But i am past that hassle now.
I will admit that my wife has a new, dealer bought, car because she was very insistent on the latest in car comforts !, ...and its her own money ( employment package).
Regarding the batteries,..some of the battery tech guys have said the reason they fail is actually vibration.
They are made so fragile (thin plates etc) that after a few years they just fall apart inside.
Basicly , they are made to a cost..cheap.. A cynic might say they are designed to fail..there is no incentive for a battery manufacturer to produce a everlasting battery ! (Remember that for your next EV)
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Punx0r » Jul 21 2018 6:34am

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 20 2018 11:37pm
..EG, the Nissan Pulsar is $540 for the 20k km service.
.....BMW, 3-4 series $350 for each 20k km service.
.....BMW 5-6 series $500 ..........20k services
All official manufacturers prices.
You cannot say EVs will save any significant money on service costs.
Sure, cherry-pick the "small" service cost. Why not quote the "big" service, usually around the 50-80K miles mark? Y'know the one where people sometimes sell the car just before its due because of the cost.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by DanGT86 » Jul 21 2018 7:55am

There seems to be lots of varying opinions here on the definition of "economical" and what constitutes necessary maintenance costs.

Perhaps instead of the statement "EV's are economical to own" we should say EV's have a lower number of complex systems to break.

ICE vehicles are like the Rube Goldberg devices of transportation. There are tons of sensors that need to measure temp and air pressure and proximity and oil opacity and oxygen content and fluid level. There are also multiple sealed and filter fluid and air circuits involved with various pumps. Every gasket is another opportunity for a leak. Then you have a multi speed transmission of some kind that shuffles mechanical energy around at high torque using wearable friction disks. Oh and don't let me forget the complex network of steel tube that has to contend with 1000 plus degree corrosive gasses then heat cycle back to ambient temperature a few times a day. They are engineering nightmares that we only put up with because that's been the way it's been done for 100 years.

In my mind the comparison is simple and goes like this:
-Take a brand new ICE vehicle and a Brand New electric car.
-Put no money other than fuel into them. No maintenance, no inspections, no dealer visits etc. Just charge or fill up the tank when needed.
-See which one stops moving first due to a mechanical failure. Fix that failure and record the cost.

I'd be willing to bet in this test the EV would typically outlast the ICE vehicle with less failures and less money input. Its this increased complexity that leads me to believe that EVs are cheaper operate in the long run. Even if you factor in the few hundred dollar difference in schedule maint inspections on the battery and brake fluid flushes that the ICE probably needs as well.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 21 2018 9:21am

Punx0r wrote:
Jul 21 2018 6:34am
Hillhater wrote:
Jul 20 2018 11:37pm
..EG, the Nissan Pulsar is $540 for the 20k km service.
.....BMW, 3-4 series $350 for each 20k km service.
.....BMW 5-6 series $500 ..........20k services
All official manufacturers prices.
You cannot say EVs will save any significant money on service costs.
Sure, cherry-pick the "small" service cost. Why not quote the "big" service, usually around the 50-80K miles mark? Y'know the one where people sometimes sell the car just before its due because of the cost.

But why ?... Do you want to talk about those battery replacements that the leaf owners experienced, or the inverter replacements that tesla roadster owners had to pay for .?
:roll: i quoted the service costs applicable for the warranty periods. They are annual costs .
Beyond that, owners are free to make their own arrangements...
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 21 2018 9:38am

DanGT86 wrote:
Jul 21 2018 7:55am
...
Perhaps instead of the statement "EV's are economical to own" we should say EV's have a lower number of complex systems to break. ..
Or perhaps we should say.." EVs have a lower number of MECHANICAL systems to break, but more ELECTRICAL complex systems to fail." ?
DanGT86 wrote:
Jul 21 2018 7:55am
...
-Take a brand new ICE vehicle and a Brand New electric car. ..........
-See which one stops moving first due to a mechanical failure. Fix that failure and record the cost.
It would be less biased to see which one stops first due to ANY type of failure...mechanical , or electrical !
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Punx0r » Jul 21 2018 9:46am

No, I don't want to talk about REPAIR costs in a discussion about SERVICING costs because your model-specific examples of design flaws are as irrelevant as including the costs of engine replacements due to those cars that had Nikasil liners :roll:

You did not quote the servicing costs related to the warranty period. What modern car has a warranty that only lasts 20K miles?! :lol: Also, what on earth has the warranty length got to do with the lifetime SERVICING costs?

Stop moving the goalposts
Stop constructing Strawman arguments

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by alan » Jul 21 2018 10:15am

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 20 2018 11:37pm
Alan , im happy to compare the details of service cost if you really think its relavent..but the simple fact is that the cost of service parts and materials on any modern car , EV, or ICE, is minor compared to the labour cost.
This may be true for the first 20Km of service where other than an oil change, the rest is all labor without significant differences in how much labor. However, with later services, spark plugs, belts, tranny fluid, engine air filters, and a number of other PARTS that take additional labor and DO NOT EXIST on EVs will make a difference. Not to mention the vast more complexities found in an ICE from exhaust systems to AC clutches to fuel pumps and filters and cap seals and other fuel handling issues to hydraulic power steering, etc. All of these things are far more complex and less robust long term than the all-electric analog or non-existent equivalent on an EV. An automatic transmission requires service every few years, has a replacement cost similar to an EV battery, and has a shorter life expectancy. That difference is insignificant to the complexity/robustness differences between electric motors and IC engines. The difference are much larger than the similarities between EVs and ICEs. Those similarities are brake flushes, tires, wipers and washer fluid, suspension components, and AC. There are some similarities in the brake pads and rotor maintenance, except that, like the hybrid ICEs, EVs have brake mechanicals, including the pads that have expected life 4-10x the brakes on an ICE because the ICE uses brakes 100% of the time, save for some small deceleration from engine compression, where a EVs and hybrids uses regen for over 90% of all deceleration.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by DanGT86 » Jul 21 2018 11:41am

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 21 2018 9:38am

Or perhaps we should say.." EVs have a lower number of MECHANICAL systems to break, but more ELECTRICAL complex systems to fail." ?
Not really. As Alan reinforced above, EVs do not have more complex electrical systems to fail. They just have one big one that historically is very reliable. One big motor and one big battery pack are not nearly as complex as the array of electromechanical sensors and control devices in an ICE powetrain. Not by a long shot!
Hillhater wrote:
Jul 21 2018 9:38am
It would be less biased to see which one stops first due to ANY type of failure...mechanical , or electrical !
Thats what i meant. Ev would win out most of the time. Probably go 1/4 million miles till 70% batt capacity while the ICE is parked with a failed EGR valve or fouled plugs or clogged cat, or bad injector l, or failed starter, or broken belt, or dead fuel pump, or bad alternator......

If we made a list of all of the systems unique to an ICE and a list of all systems unique to an EV, and canceled out all of the systems they share, the ICE list would be huge. The ICE list would comprise most of the vehicle's systems. The EV list would be small. Battery, motor, charger, BMS.

If you honestly think that the maint and long term reliability cost of those EV bits are worse than the long term reliability hassle/costs of "unique to ICE" parts than I'll agree to disagree here and would love a recommendation for my next ICE vehicle. :D

Even my proposed list of parts that cancel out is biased because the EV versions of AC, power, steering and braking systems are more reliable and less complex than their hydraulic, belt driven, vacuum assisted, clutch operated ICE counterparts. Way more points of failure and contamination for the ICE.

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by billvon » Jul 21 2018 9:09pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 20 2018 11:37pm
You cannot say EVs will save any significant money on service costs.
Other than in reality.

I would suggest leasing/owning one someday if you expect anyone to take you even a bit seriously when you claim to be an expert on them.
--bill von

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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 22 2018 7:48am

Punx0r wrote:
Jul 21 2018 9:46am

You did not quote the servicing costs related to the warranty period. What modern car has a warranty that only lasts 20K miles?! :lol: Also, what on earth has the warranty length got to do with the lifetime SERVICING costs?
Do a little research at least ! ..and try to read the posts before you reply.
As i said.. Those costs are for EACH 20k km service..and continue for the duration of the warranty..4, 5, 7, even 8 years with some manufacturers.
Obviously you are not aware of current fixed price/capped price, and prepaid service plans that most manufacturers offer these days
Warranty period service costs were used simply as an example to disprove the myth that EVs have lower maintenance costs than ICEs.
If you want to speculate on lifetime maintenance costs, then its you shifting the goalposts !
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Re: EV Myths - add your own!

Post by Hillhater » Jul 22 2018 8:08am

DanGT86 wrote:
Jul 21 2018 11:41am
... EVs do not have more complex electrical systems to fail. They just have one big one that historically is very reliable. One big motor and one big battery pack are not nearly as complex as the array of electromechanical sensors and control devices in an ICE powetrain. Not by a long shot!...
:shock: you really think that ??...if so you are delusional !
Not worth debating that point.
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