Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
Sattva Ram   100 W

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 22 2021 2:20pm

Mine looks very intact I checked all the wires. Of course there is some goo stuffed into the connector so I dont know what's underneath it but it's bone stock as it came from the factory no visible damage for certain.

All I have is a 6 pin hall connector and throttle in a Wago right now. That's all my connections.

I dont think it's hall problem if it was hall it wouldnt move at all.

So that's why I am nervous all the connections are fine that's why I think something is wrong with the controller. So my only hope is pretty much erasing reverse port and hope. If it doesnt solve it then I'm fcked...

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 22 2021 2:40pm

45 is perfect. I made a moped tuning on my neighbour's and it has a very similar sized motor to my bionx (altho he has a smaller wheel which tremendously helps hub motor efficiency relative to my 26 inch) but he has a 45 amp greentime controller and the motor is even underpowered imo with this setup. Mostly it's ice cold. The problem is that even with the 72 volt upgrade it's too slow so the motor's potential is not utilized. The only way you can burn that motor is extremely steep hills. (Maybe with the votol installed in his I could get some extra speed...it'd be good to know.)

I dont really need the controller's temp sensor btw. I use LM35 with a tiny voltmeter on the dashboard. It's even better than the votol's because the votol just shuts it off unbeknownst to you. While if you see the temp exactly you can taper off in time so you might not have to stop for a cooling break.

Anyway 45 Amp is only needed on steep hills or hard accelerations. Say if I cruise at 60 kmph it uses maybe 18 amp continuous at 72v...

Btw I wont use the bionx for this build I'm just testing the bionx now. For the bionx I'll build a bike with a smaller battery 15S 90 cells in a DP9 shark. That's one of the reasons I am doing the test now. Even at 15s I find the bionx a bit slow so what I wanna find out is whether I can give some extra speed with the votol so at 15s the bike will do around 50 kmph at 56 volts nominal around 55kmp at 63 fully charged that's the target. But at 15S the base speed of the bionx is surely not enough for this. It does something like 37kmph at 48volts...

For this bicycle i already dumpsterdived a new motor it's a bulls greenmover. Similar to the bionx btw but a bit stronger more steel more copper and even a better build quality. This bike has a 180cell mj-1 pack so it deserves a little bit better motor than the bionx. I'm not even sure that I'll use the em30 with this bigger bike. Maybe I will have to buy the em50...(or an upgraded em-30 with original 4110 fets...) Only the the em 50 is friggin expensive while this em30 is dirt cheap...

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 22 2021 3:24pm

The em-30 uses magnachip mdp1991 fets 4.4mohm rds on. Almost as good as the 4110 with 3.7 mohm. Tho the magna is said to be only 120A while the irf is 180A i think it's vaporware tho...maybe i wouldnt win too much with the upgrade best to leave it as is....

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BareKuda   100 W

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by BareKuda » Dec 22 2021 3:54pm

Sattva Ram wrote:
Dec 22 2021 2:40pm
45 is perfect. I made a moped tuning on my neighbour's and it has a very similar sized motor to my bionx (altho he has a smaller wheel which tremendously helps hub motor efficiency relative to my 26 inch) but he has a 45 amp greentime controller and the motor is even underpowered imo with this setup. Mostly it's ice cold. The problem is that even with the 72 volt upgrade it's too slow so the motor's potential is not utilized. The only way you can burn that motor is extremely steep hills. (Maybe with the votol installed in his I could get some extra speed...it'd be good to know.)
Sounds like you need to test the EM 30 on your neighbors bike if it needs FW. Then he can know if he needs one or needs the EM 50 or higher.

My last scooter has 14” bicycle tires on 10” rims. I changed thise out to some 10- 2.50 tires.

It was only 350 watts but would get up to 45 km/h easy and then be governed. I would have likes to test this controller on that bike and see what it could really do.

I might look for a little bike the size of a Fiido that i can carry upstairs and play with the controller. The EM 30 is heavy but seems bullet proof. But all those 1 pound gains add up fast on a 50 lb bike. Lol

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 22 2021 9:19pm

Em 50 is out for him he is a cheapskate he will never buy that. Em30 or nothing for him. The problem is that the em30 needs to be placed infront of the bike to get cooling and that's a hell of a work to do now I'm not gonna do that modification now. (Stupid me placed the controller under the seat where it was originally. When I made the bike it would have been zero work to put it in the front now it's a lotta work to put it there. Well maybe one day i'll do it. But i think I'll try the em 30 with his I'm terribly curious.) The other problem with his greentime is the shitty regen. The regen is tied to the lvc. So it depends on the lvc settings when the regen starts to work. So now with 55volt lvc set only below 76 volts does he have regen. The other problem is the inefficient regen. It heats the motor like crazy. Maybe 40% of the brake energy goes back to the battery the rest heats the motor. Very bad controller I'll never buy greentime again. I think the votol has a 73% regen efficiency which is kinda acceptable. At 96 volts his bike would be optimal speedwise. Or even higher maybe 108 the problem is where the ef do you get cheap regen capable high voltage controller or BMS for that matter. So somehow it should be made faster with flux weak at 72 volts without having to rewind the motor or going higher voltage. Only the votol's flux weak could do that. But I'm wondering if I'd lose efficiency by overspinning the motor...

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by BareKuda » Dec 23 2021 1:12am

Sattva Ram wrote:
Dec 22 2021 9:19pm
Em 50 is out for him he is a cheapskate he will never buy that. Em30 or nothing for him. The problem is that the em30 needs to be placed infront of the bike to get cooling and that's a hell of a work to do now I'm not gonna do that modification now. (Stupid me placed the controller under the seat where it was originally. When I made the bike it would have been zero work to put it in the front now it's a lotta work to put it there. Well maybe one day i'll do it. But i think I'll try the em 30 with his I'm terribly curious.) The other problem with his greentime is the shitty regen. The regen is tied to the lvc. So it depends on the lvc settings when the regen starts to work. So now with 55volt lvc set only below 76 volts does he have regen. The other problem is the inefficient regen. It heats the motor like crazy. Maybe 40% of the brake energy goes back to the battery the rest heats the motor. Very bad controller I'll never buy greentime again. I think the votol has a 73% regen efficiency which is kinda acceptable. At 96 volts his bike would be optimal speedwise. Or even higher maybe 108 the problem is where the ef do you get cheap regen capable high voltage controller or BMS for that matter. So somehow it should be made faster with flux weak at 72 volts without having to rewind the motor or going higher voltage. Only the votol's flux weak could do that. But I'm wondering if I'd lose efficiency by overspinning the motor...
Mine is in the same place as the original controller, in a compartment under the P-Pad.
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It has some vent slots. It never got hot so far.

My EM-30s cost $35+ shipping and customs. The EM-50 from the same store is $80. It’s amazing you can buy two of these with 70a combines for less than the 50A. Really good if you want dual motor.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 23 2021 2:07am

My experience is that if you hide these controllers from air they can give the design spec but not more. If you place them in the air they can deliver much much more...(i had a GM magic controller in a laptop bag on the rack for a temporary test setup before the final battery box was made it constantly got overheated in the summer. Placed upfront in the final version ice cold always...)

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 23 2021 3:34am

Got a diagnosis finally. Fricking hall. It was working to some extent that's why it went bakwards and the controller couldnt diagnose the hall fault because it was only partially wrong and sometimes it was working okay completely that's when it went forward.

But now it's completely wrong so the controller can finally say hall fault.

Actually this was my initial intuition i only dropped this theory because I thought a hall is either good or bad there's no invetween state. But apparently there is. The problem might have been that I used the original hall from the bionx when I didnt even know why they threw out that motor... maybe it had a bad hall and not the usual torque sensor problem...Or maybe the hall started to move inside that's also a possibility...but it's unlikely it's fixed with epoxy if I remember well (orr maybe it was just initially fixed with epoxy and for the second time I fixed with only silicone. I cant remember now tbh. If it's silicone then I think it just started to move very slowly and its top is not parallel to the magnets anymore but at an angle...)

(Or the other option is that the motor is completely burnt inside and the halls are burnt too but that's highly unlikely i had burnt motors before but never a burnt hall inside. Well this is quite stupid you can solder halls and still not burn it a motor will never burn a hall before the motor itself goes bust completely...)

It's such a pain in the a§§ to take apart a bionx. Gotta unlace the whole dam thing...anyway it's like a festering wound that you dont wanna look at. Anything can be inside at this point. Anyway I'm prepared for a rewind tbh. (The good thing about the rewind tho is that I can make it faster so no need for flux weak...) If I gotta rewind because the votol burnt it then I could have just bought a kelly and even that would have been cheaper. (I can do the rewind so it's not a lotta money but sure is a lotta work...) The other good thing about the rewind is that I can tuck in more copper and also I have a very good little 48v budget controller with regen so it will be perfect for the small bike build cause even at 48 volts it will be fast enough with the new wind and I wont have to buy a new votol. The votol is very hard to place on a bicycle well it's made for mopeds...

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 23 2021 8:57am

It wasnt the hall. The LM35 got bust and that must have messed with the controller cause it uses the hall's power supply. Maybe the LM got cooked when the motor got too hot because the votol started to misbehave after the motor got hot.

The motor is very stinky but windings seem fine magnets okay too...

What could also cause a problem is that i connected the lm's signal to the white wire in the controller. I thought that it's a dud wire cause carrie said it doesnt have temp sensor...maybe it has something after all the white wire is connected to the panel inside...

However I seem to have an issue with the controller still. I did some no load spins HDC off. It was 550 at 50 volts and around 1.3Amp draw but without hdc it also spins 550 at 60 volts but only at 0.9 amp draw. So it seems to me that it always uses some flux weak and it uses a lotta extra amps which means high inefficiency.

Doenst yours try to overspin the motor? Like 10 voltage difference yet same rpm and different amp draw...so maybe I'll run into my initial problem of an always on flux weak eventually...I absolutely hate it that the rpm is not linearly proportional to the voltage it just always revs higher than it should. Which is okay but not okay if it comes at the price of efficiency...

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by BareKuda » Dec 23 2021 1:53pm

Sattva Ram wrote:
Dec 23 2021 8:57am
It wasnt the hall. The LM35 got bust and that must have messed with the controller cause it uses the hall's power supply. Maybe the LM got cooked when the motor got too hot because the votol started to misbehave after the motor got hot.

The motor is very stinky but windings seem fine magnets okay too...

What could also cause a problem is that i connected the lm's signal to the white wire in the controller. I thought that it's a dud wire cause carrie said it doesnt have temp sensor...maybe it has something after all the white wire is connected to the panel inside...

However I seem to have an issue with the controller still. I did some no load spins HDC off. It was 550 at 50 volts and around 1.3Amp draw but without hdc it also spins 550 at 60 volts but only at 0.9 amp draw. So it seems to me that it always uses some flux weak and it uses a lotta extra amps which means high inefficiency.

Doenst yours try to overspin the motor? Like 10 voltage difference yet same rpm and different amp draw...so maybe I'll run into my initial problem of an always on flux weak eventually...I absolutely hate it that the rpm is not linearly proportional to the voltage it just always revs higher than it should. Which is okay but not okay if it comes at the price of efficiency...
With FW set to 0, and HDC box checked, RPM set to 1200 to unrestrict it, it will go about 700 rpm but you hear it sound a bit busy once over base speed. So i decrees HDC rpm until the no-load max speed doesn’t try to enter FW region.

If i give it 2000 FW then no-load RPM can go to 900 (if HDC RPM set to allow it). But i dont like the sound and my scooter can only use it when going downhill with a tailwind, and I have no hills nearby. Lol.

Did you fix the reverse problem when you disconnected whatever you tied into the hall +5v bus?

I don’t know if your tests changing voltage can show you much because aside from voltage the controller is also using FOC once it gets above sensored mode rpm. Mine seems to shift at around 100 RPM. Then its dead silent while riding.

I think the PI values in the current control loop need to be tunes for battery voltage, lower values needed the higher voltage is.

Also no-load tests aren’t really going to show you what your bike will do on the road. After getting the basic pairing and configuration, all my tuning was done on the road with my laptop sitting on the floorboard connected to the controller. Tweak, reboot, reconnect, test, repeat.

If i had a bicycle too small for a laptop id get an 8” windows 10 tablet and USB adapter or a Votol Bluetooth module.
I had an Acer Iconia Tab8 but the battery bloated and i gave it away. Lol

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 23 2021 2:49pm

Yeah it seems to have been solved. It didnt go in reverse ever since...but the motor is apart now anyway.

Now that's my big problem sure you can set hdc to your base speed no problem. But it will still flux weak. Okay say I set a 500 rpm hdc which is my base speed. Then as the battery starts to deplete it will still try to maintain 500 rpm eventho the voltage doesnt allow for it which can only mean flux weak. At least this is the case with lion with lifepo it's no problem say you have a 24s lifepo it will be 79volts all along maybe 77 fully depleted you can perfectly set your speed with hdc for lifepo and bypass flux weak. But with a lion there's a significant voltage drop across the board which means that a lion is nowhere near as fast depleted as fully charged. But with this votol it will be just as fast fully charged as fully depleted because the votol will always rev it higher than it follows from the voltage it just always tries to reach the hdc in other words even if there isnt enough voltage for it. So you cant shut flux weak off with the votol it's always on. However I guess it's a feature not a bug. I cannot really know how it will go on the road tho but I am kinda sure that flux weak is always on with this controller you cant shut it off the only way you can bypass flux weak is having lifepo which doesnt drop the volts as it depletes...

I make some videos tomorrow if you dont get what I'm talking about. I'd really need to try this controller on the road now. No load tests are no good anymore.

I tested the bulls green mover motor. Extremely fast. It has some 11.6 kv. Fully charged it will do 85 kmph by my estimation. Almost 1k no load revs at 84volt fully charged. I think I'll lace it in 24 inch. The bulls is too fast the bionx is too slow...I dont seem to have luck.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by BareKuda » Dec 23 2021 8:15pm

Sattva Ram wrote:
Dec 23 2021 2:49pm

Now that's my big problem sure you can set hdc to your base speed no problem. But it will still flux weak. Okay say I set a 500 rpm hdc which is my base speed. Then as the battery starts to deplete it will still try to maintain 500 rpm eventho the voltage doesnt allow for it which can only mean flux weak.
If you set your controller up properly all these problems will go away. I dont have problem with trying to enter flux weakening because i have a 3-speed swith with speeds set well below what the motor will run at when my batttery is at the low voltage cutoff.

Non-programmed FOC controller will cap the speed below max base speed too. The votol, having the ability to flux weaken will let you take the motor up to the raged edge. But you can easily set it to run smoothly,

Even if you want to leave your 3 speed disconnected you can simplify set HDC at 50v or whatever and rheh at 84v it will not enter FW and as the battery voltage drops it wont either.

My speeds are 20, 30, 40 and the base speed of the motor is about 50 (kmh). If im running low battery I will just set speed 1.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 23 2021 9:15pm

Yeah sure with 3 speed you can solve this issue that's true...but maybe it neednt be solved. I'm thinking that they purposely made it like that so you dont lose speed as the battery depletes...Maybe the flux weak isnt even that inefficient who knows only testing can tell...You are right tho now I understand why you were so insistent on this 3 speed thing. 3 speed is essential for the votol at least if you want to choose to have FW or not.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 24 2021 2:14am

Meeh i think i'll have to buy the em50 if I wanna use the bulls motor. It's extremely fast 116kmph no load. It will do well over 80 on the flat ground by my estimation. Even if I give the em30 45 amps it will still be a dismal acceleration with such a high kv motor...I dont really need 80+ kph. I dont mind it but if the acceleration is the tradeoff then screw that high speed. I'd need em50 to have good acceleration i'd need around 70amps or so...

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by BareKuda » Dec 26 2021 11:39am

Sattva Ram wrote:
Dec 24 2021 2:14am
Meeh i think i'll have to buy the em50 if I wanna use the bulls motor. It's extremely fast 116kmph no load. It will do well over 80 on the flat ground by my estimation. Even if I give the em30 45 amps it will still be a dismal acceleration with such a high kv motor...I dont really need 80+ kph. I dont mind it but if the acceleration is the tradeoff then screw that high speed. I'd need em50 to have good acceleration i'd need around 70amps or so...
Seems like you will enter the endless upgrade cycle because thst much motor with that much controller os going to need a bigger battery.

The EM-30 is ok for me and i can make a battery with BMS to match the continuous/peak voltage, common port since i have regen and my existing charge port just ties into the wire between the battery and controller.

Then that leaves some headroom for a 1000w (2000w peak) motor if my 500w motor burns up,

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 26 2021 12:34pm

Here are the shits I have right now. If 180 original mj-1s are not enough then I dont know what is. I presume the battery will be ice cold even if I buy the em50.

Here's the deal i have one bike right now but two motors. Originally I intended the bionx for the black bike you see on the picture. But in the meanwhile I got ahold of this bulls motor. I find the bulls a littlebit better than the bionx so I wanna use it for the black bike with the 180 pieces triangle pack. The problem is that it spins too fast 11.6kv. So if I use the em 30 with the bulls motor - as I originally intended with the bionx - then even if i give it 45 amps the acceleration will be dismal with such a high kv motor. So I'm toying with the idea of lacing the bulls into a 457 etrto 22 inch wheel to reduce some of the superfluous top speed and also to gain some efficiency cause the hub motor can spin faster at a given speed and buy an EM50 so the acceleration wont be so lame. I have no choice but the em50 if I wanna use the bulls. The em 30 is simply not enough due to the low amp. The bionx accelerates kinda well with the em 30 but with this bulls it's horrible even at 45 amps. Projected speed with the 22 inch wheel around 80 kmp fully charged with the bulls.

I also have some 100 cells laying around that I gotta use for something. So I think I'll make a dp9 battery of 15S and build another bike and use the bionx and the em-30 for that bike. At 63 volts the bionx in a 26 inch wheel will be too slow around 45kmph fully charged but I can give it some flux weak to do 50 and that's enough for that smaller bike.

The other alternative is to use the bionx for the black bike and use the em-30 as I originally wanted but that would only yield around 60 kmph fully charged. Maybe with some flux weak I can give it 65 that's actually enough for me.

And I use up the bulls for the other bike at 48 volts which will yield well above 50 kmph top speed. For this I have a shitty generic controller that I can tune up with some 4110 fets so I can give it 45 amps easily no need for any flux weak cause the bulls spins like hell even at 48 volts so a lame controller can do the trick. (But I have to also test its regen ability maybe it's inefficient and just heats the motor like an idiot. Good regen is a must!)

The problem is that I dont know the circumference data for the 22 inch tyre. It's not the regular children's size. It's a specific ebike thing but there's simply no circumference data about it. It can be anything. Maybe it's too low so it's completely unusable for my mountain bike. 1900mm would be ideal. If it's lower then I think it's no good. But if I cant lace the bulls motor in a 22 inch then it'll be superfluously fast. It's a 457 etrto 22x2.125 tyre but there's absolutely no data about it.

So basically this is my dilemma. You are right tho. This bike is undergoing constant upgrade. It started with the bionx with a 91 cell dp9 holder with a shitty 48v controller. Now it's 180 cell dumb bms em 30 and bionx. Then it'll be a 180 cell smart bms em 50 bulls. I throw off so many things from this bike that I'll have to build another bike.

Also a lotta testing is needed these speeds are just estimations based on no load rpm. So first thing is to finish the battery pack and once the 20s battery is ready I can see the real data and test both motors.
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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 26 2021 12:38pm

What I'm also worried about is the bionx's torque "arm". So that's why I am also reluctant to use it for the big bike...(luckly it's the upgraded solid axle not the hollow axle so i can give the wheel nut some torque without the axle snapping so the torque arm works better but still...who knows what that can handle...)

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 26 2021 12:52pm

This was the original project. It didnt go a meter before I chucked it out.
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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 26 2021 1:02pm

And here's the main project. I friggin bought a sabvoton for the 138 90H. I'm such a bloody idiot. I remember well that I was completely torn apart between the sabvoton and the votol. I just couldnt decide for weeks. Eventually I didnt dare to buy the votol because it was said that it's too buggy so I went with the Sab. Grave mistake it was...I only learned it now. So it's either the em 260 or the far driver 72850. So you can see I am chin deep in all these projects. Constant change of mind constant upgrade constant fck up...(Recently I was thinking about tearing up the battery and making a 144 volt version. But I dropped the idea I trust the votol's/far driver's flux weak ability so it can spin the motor faster at a good efficiency. I think it will be fine. After all this is an IPMSM motor perfectly tailor made for flux weak. I think the chinese guys figured this shit out very well this is a good combination...4000k max rpm with the sabvoton was horrible absolutely unsuitable for efficient use)
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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by BareKuda » Dec 26 2021 6:37pm

Sattva Ram wrote:
Dec 26 2021 12:34pm
The problem is that I dont know the circumference data for the 22 inch tyre. It's not the regular children's size. It's a specific ebike thing but there's simply no circumference data about it. It can be anything. Maybe it's too low so it's completely unusable for my mountain bike. 1900mm would be ideal. If it's lower then I think it's no good. But if I cant lace the bulls motor in a 22 inch then it'll be superfluously fast. It's a 457 etrto 22x2.125 tyre but there's absolutely no data about it.
The bicycle tire sizes compared to normal tires does throw a wrench in the gears sometimes. My last ebike used 14 x 2.125 tires, mounted on a 10” hub motor.

AFAIK the 457 tire is 22x 2.125 tire follows rhe same format and is mounted on an 18” rim. So the circumference should be about 1780 mm.

Many small ebikes come with a 14” tire and if you search 14” hub motor you will see some are reall 14” like QS motors and some are 10” but designed for a bicycle tire.

With your bike its hard to get a corner nailed down because everything affects everything else. But you cant lose sight of what you actual want when making compromises.

It seems by using your normal tire size instead of a 22” tire you will lose some low in torque, but if that motor has ample low end torque then its ok to let the controller limit the top speed and you can have a turbo button to have 80km/h when you need it.

I’m still looking for my hobby ebike but don’t want one where i upgrade everything except the frame. Lol

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 26 2021 9:35pm

I inquired about the circumference in a shop hopefully they can tell me. Maybe I ask it here too. 1780 is a bit low...I know someone who has a burnt motor laced in a 457 wheel. Maybe I pick it up and put it in my frame to see if it's doable...

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 26 2021 9:47pm

I dont know how much it will drop relative to no load. If it drops 30% then a 24 inch is good too. Cause then it'll only do 75 kmp fully charged. (Okay for the votol fully charged means nothing because it always flux weaks we already discussed it...) If it drops 25% I'm still good with the 24 cause then 80 kph will be the top speed. If it only drops 20% then 24 is too large. But I am almost sure that it'll drop at least 25%. I had a 3540 clyte. 24S lifepo at 79volts did 88 kph no load and did 70 kmph but only with a full tuck with normal position maybe even less so it dropped only 20% but it was a larger motor with a smaller airgap. So I guess this smaller motor will drop at least 25% in which case 24 is perfect (also factoring in that the clyte dropped 20% at 70 kmph but above 70 it increasingly drops speed due to the exponentially elevated amps. So i'd say that the bulls will drop at least 25% maybe even 30%...). My uneducated guess is 75 kmph with 1920mm 24x1.95 tyre. If it's less it's even better. So I'm not forced to put the 22 inch on.

Anyway I'd still like the 22 the smaller the wheel the happier the DD hub motor...

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BareKuda   100 W

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by BareKuda » Dec 26 2021 10:34pm

Sattva Ram wrote:
Dec 26 2021 1:02pm
And here's the main project. I friggin bought a sabvoton for the 138 90H. I'm such a bloody idiot. I remember well that I was completely torn apart between the sabvoton and the votol. I just couldnt decide for weeks. Eventually I didnt dare to buy the votol because it was said that it's too buggy so I went with the Sab. Grave mistake it was...I only learned it now. So it's either the em 260 or the far driver 72850. So you can see I am chin deep in all these projects. Constant change of mind constant upgrade constant fck up...(Recently I was thinking about tearing up the battery and making a 144 volt version. But I dropped the idea I trust the votol's/far driver's flux weak ability so it can spin the motor faster at a good efficiency. I think it will be fine. After all this is an IPMSM motor perfectly tailor made for flux weak. I think the chinese guys figured this shit out very well this is a good combination...4000k max rpm with the sabvoton was horrible absolutely unsuitable for efficient use)
This looks like it has a lot of potential. Ive owned several motorcycles in my life from 250 ninja, 750 Seca, 12000 GW Aspencade , 1348 cc harley. That Aspencade would have made a great conversion because it was already big and slow.

I use to strongly oppose hub motors because of unsprung mass and the idea of the powerplant taking a beating but they are slowly taking over. The New Sondors, if it ever goes into full production, seems like a good value. But im sure anything from China for $5000 will beat it in every way.

Now i love hub motors because no chain, belt, shaft, lots of freed up space for batteries.

Sattva Ram   100 W

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 26 2021 10:54pm

This was my bike before this. I only had hubs so far. But I realized their shortcomings. Not only the unsprung is the problem but the dismal efficiency at low rpm. (That's why I'd want the 22 inch). Scooters are really suited for hubs tho that small wheel spins like crazy.

But I also see the problem with the mid motors. Hubs are waay better freewheelers so you get back some of the wasted energy coming from the low rpm inefficiencies in regen scenarios. Plus the noiselessness. So there's pros and cons everywhere.

Aptera has hub motors. They say that axial flux hub motors are the next big thing. If you could reduce that unsprung hubs would be really good. However I dont think it'll ever happen. For AF motors are only efficient if you give them the rpm once you make a hub out of it there goes the effi.

Right now I have a scooter with friggin mid motor. I roll off the throttle and the wheel stops so fast as if it had regen. Yet zero amps are coming back. I literally have to pull the throttle even on relatively steep declines so it doesnt stop. I have no choice but to weld a freewheel onto it. That's the only way that friggin scooter will ever be good. Still wont have regen but at least it will be able to coast.
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Sattva Ram   100 W

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by Sattva Ram » Dec 26 2021 11:17pm

I think the rs50 aprilia is the best for conversion. It doesnt have rear suspension linkage so the whole battery pack can be fitted below reaching underneath the swing arm giving terrific COG.

You can see on the picture where the battery will be.

I used to be a track racer. I had all sorts of sportsbikes. I hate petrol now tho. They are disgusting I simply feel no right to own a noisy petrol bike at this day and age. They literally make me sick.

I still have a vague desire to make a proper track bike. (I think I could make a better one than the friggin energicas that shit is waay too heavy due to the lipos). But it's a looota money. I'd have to build a custom frame for that too. Actually I had some designs before that was quite unique but now I see that Twente already made a proper racebike much according to my visions. So since they already made it I dont really feel the motivation too much to do it after all it already exists in the world I dont think I could make a better bike than them.

I actually did a moped tuning before the idea was to put the cells in the square holder giving some space between the cells and expose the pack to the air for cooling. This way you can use capacity cells instead of power cells without overheating and also no need for heavy climate control systems. The reason why energica sucks is cause they had to use heavy lipos cause the light lion capacity cells got cooked. But Twente actually put "my" idea into their racebike. Same range as the energica yet waaay lighter. I'd need at least 20k for such bike. Even more. One time there was an emrax for sale for half the price with a bammocar controller. I should have effin bought that. The controller and the motor alone is 10k for such a racebike. So 5k for the motor and controller 1.5k for the 20 kwh pack. The frame is mostly just work. But still a lotta other stuff carbon wheels ohlins suspension etc... That's at least another 10k but used I could maybe get it for cheaper. It's at least 15k from used parts. 25k new...😪 maybe when I win the lottery...
Last edited by Sattva Ram on Dec 26 2021 11:34pm, edited 1 time in total.

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