Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

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larsb   1 MW

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by larsb » Aug 28 2020 8:17am

nardcox wrote:
Aug 28 2020 3:11am
Once that's done you get to say things like: RTFM :twisted:. Before getting frustrated make sure you've done what you've can to avoid it.
Thing is that there’s a manual. It’s already ok to just read and use. Most difficulties outside of this are answered already in this thread. So you are too lazy to read a 42 page thread to get help with your issues? That’s only your problem as we don’t work for the Votol support company. Read the frocking manual.

To all users complaining about shitty votols: If they were not programmed before using then it’s your fault or the sellers issue, not Votols.
If controller busts due to this, same.
If you use controller outside of spec, it’s on you also.

When controller locks due to unstable program it’s a shitty votol and it’s been happening for some. Please mind that bartosh and silentenduro, maybe even j bjork and some others are messing with parameters that might kill the controller just to get racing performance. Doesn’t mean you have to do this, need to do this. They take a risk, it’s their issue if controller busts.

I was a fan of the Votols for some time, now i am more hesitant to recommend it. Still way better than a kelly in my experience. I’ve owned and killed five kellys and zero votols during the same type of use.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by nardcox » Aug 28 2020 8:42am

larsb wrote:
Aug 28 2020 8:17am
Thing is that there’s a manual. It’s already ok to just read and use. Most difficulties outside of this are answered already in this thread. So you are too lazy to read a 42 page thread to get help with your issues? That’s only your problem as we don’t work for the Votol support company. Read the frocking manual.

To all users complaining about shitty votols: If they were not programmed before using then it’s your fault or the sellers issue, not Votols.
If controller busts due to this, same.
If you use controller outside of spec, it’s on you also.

When controller locks due to unstable program it’s a shitty votol and it’s been happening for some. I was a fan for some time, now i am more hesitant to recommend it.
Yes, I know, I've read it but missed the trouble shooting part. There are (guess) 100+ settings so kind of difficult to search for the setting that's causing the issue, especially for a rookie like myself. Even with your tip of the pole pairs and phase angle it remains difficult for me to find the problem. As far as I can read the motor should run but just crappy. Mine doesn't do anything, it just sits there (like in the video).

Aside from that I can't find any info on pole pairs and phase angle for the super soco motor and QS (17x3.5" 4000W 273 40H V3 960rpm) should be pre-programmed. I've send out 2 mails to both vendors asking for these settings but haven't gotten a response yet. So if anyone knows..

I'm reading the topic, am on page 10 I believe but like I said many things are really difficult to understand with the limited knowledge I have atm. My point on the consolidated posts stands though, I'm a 99% sure not everybody will take the time to read 1.000+ posts to find a solution to a problem that others might answer within 10 Minutes.

I totally agree with you, if a product fails due to user error it's not a shitty product (unless there is an option to prevent users from using incorrect settings). I've seen some video's of people using a Sabvoton controller and the thing was automatically calibrating itself which sounds like an great feature if that means skipping settings like pole pairs and hall angle.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by j bjork » Aug 28 2020 9:00am

nardcox wrote:
Aug 28 2020 8:42am

Aside from that I can't find any info on pole pairs and phase angle for the super soco motor and QS (17x3.5" 4000W 273 40H V3 960rpm) should be pre-programmed. I've send out 2 mails to both vendors asking for these settings but haven't gotten a response yet. So if anyone knows..
This 273?

http://www.cnqsmotor.com/en/article_rea ... e/242.html

In that case it seems to be 16 pole pairs, from the info on the site.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by nardcox » Aug 28 2020 9:49am

j bjork wrote:
Aug 28 2020 9:00am
This 273?

http://www.cnqsmotor.com/en/article_rea ... e/242.html

In that case it seems to be 16 pole pairs, from the info on the site.
Yes that seems correct. I was looking on this site which only had the 40mm magnet height.
https://www.qsmotor.com/product/17inch- ... ter-motor/
So settings are probably correct as QS also indicated. They basically said they preprogrammed everything that was required. That's why I'm thinking the problem is not with the battery, bms, controller, motor but with the throttle (which they also supplied). Don't know how I can check that.

Read till page 14, so 1/3th in. Will continue reading later. Will do some searching how to test throttle.

EDIT: I measure ~5,5V connecting the black & red wires together shortly...how can I measure the 'signal'?
EDIT: A black and green cable voltage measurement... I'll give it a shot.
EDIT: 0,0V neutral or full throttle doesn't make a difference.
EDIT: Switched back to the 'normal' throttle and F*CK YEAH it worked. No strange noises perfectly smooth. Downside is that I can't mount the motor in my rear arm because it's too wide. Just placed everything back in the frame and hooked up the regular motor. It's making all kinds of strange noises but it's not moving. At least the throttle is coming through, just need to have the proper motor settings now.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by j bjork » Aug 28 2020 11:41am

In some of the programs you can switch phases and halls, but you dont seem to have that. So you may have to do it manually.
But you can start by changing the hall angle from -120 to 120 ( maybe 60 and -60 can be useful too)
Qs have an unusual color combination, my guess is that they use -120 to compensate.
But it is only my guess, I dont really have much experience in tuning hall angles etc.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by nardcox » Aug 28 2020 11:50am

Yeah I've tried 27 pole pairs since 'someone online' said so.
Already tried -120 and 120. Will try 60, -60 and 0 after. The impact needs to be huge since now the motor isn't moving and sounds funny. If the above 3 settings don't work I'll post a video of it.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by j bjork » Aug 28 2020 12:03pm

Do you get rpm in the display screen if you turn it by hand?

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by liteglow » Aug 28 2020 1:49pm

j bjork wrote:
Aug 28 2020 12:06am
I think you are the first person I have seen recommend a kelly over the votol 150sp.
I have no personal experience with kelly, but from what I have seen on this forum they dont seem very reliable..
OK, I thank for pointing that out (before I buy a Kelly).
But I did not say I personally reccomend a Kelly, but many (that know votol and Kelly), they have stopped using votol, and are now using Kelly.

And "they" say to me that I should use a Kelly.
Because Kelly is better to program, using PC/Bluetooth/Tablet.
Kelly also have more easy software.
Kelly don't have flux weakning settings, but it have more torgue in start.

Votol have higher top speed, but Kelly is more reliable.

This is what other say, I consider to buy both so I can Compare myself.

There is also video on YouTube where the Votol simply fail on climbs, but the Kelly just work.

But Yes, many many people also say the Votol is powerful and solid as a brick.
So maybe there is some bad units or even fake one?

I see many here write that there is Votol 150/150sp/150S etc.

This is the answer I got from QS support when I asked if I could get the S version: "They are all the same"

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by j bjork » Aug 28 2020 2:20pm

liteglow wrote:
Aug 28 2020 1:49pm

Because Kelly is better to program, using PC/Bluetooth/Tablet.
Kelly also have more easy software.
That is probably right, the votol program is not very good.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by j bjork » Aug 28 2020 2:29pm

liteglow wrote:
Aug 28 2020 1:49pm
but it have more torgue in start.
This is totally opposite to my experience of votol, and what I have read about kelly.

From what I have seen kelly has speed, or speed/torque throttle. And to keep it controllable they have a "throttle tamer" delay that makes it really sluggish from a stop. Maybe there are kelly controllers that have torque throttle and are not like that, I dont know.
It would be interesting to hear about them in that case.

However, the votol in sport mode is a real killer in throttle response. That and the low to mid range power (on ipm motor) is the reason I use it instead of my nucular 24fet.

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by larsb » Aug 28 2020 2:38pm

liteglow wrote:
Aug 28 2020 1:49pm
Because Kelly is better to program, using PC/Bluetooth/Tablet. Yes
Kelly also have more easy software. Yes
Kelly don't have flux weakening settings, but it have more torgue in start. There are 50 kelly models, some which are more powerful than a votol em150. Some also match their motors better, such a statement is just irrelevant

Votol have higher top speed, but Kelly is more reliable. No

There is also video on YouTube where the Votol simply fail on climbs, but the Kelly just work.
would really be interesting to see a linked vid on this..?
Last edited by larsb on Aug 28 2020 2:40pm, edited 1 time in total.

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by j bjork » Aug 28 2020 2:40pm

liteglow wrote:
Aug 28 2020 1:49pm

There is also video on YouTube where the Votol simply fail on climbs, but the Kelly just work.
Yes, some people have had that problem. It is discussed pretty much in this thread, have you read it?
Both the problem and a solution.
I havent really had that problem myself, but I have noticed power loss after some riding.
It havent been bad enogh so far, that I have felt I had to disable the temp protection.
I have made some pretty big climbs, but at speed.

Have you read any kelly threads?

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by larsb » Aug 28 2020 2:42pm

If it was silentenduro i think he had different motors in those runs, at least from what i can recall.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by nardcox » Aug 28 2020 2:48pm

Why I choose Votol over Kelly & Sabvoton:
1. QS suggested it over the Kelly & Sabvoton
2. Most active topic on ES
3. QS could also provide and extra display for it

Without QS motor's I probably would have gone for the Sabvoton.

Downsides on Votol
1. No Bluetooth

Downside Kelly:
1. I've read the Kelly doesn't have torque control but something else. (My current esc has speed control which feels very unnatural (although you get used to it).
2. Kelly Quality Issues
3. Restart controller after settings (thats a minor minus because I plan to set it up and leave it alone unless I can't control myself :))
4. Its supposed to have some throttle lag (or perhaps it's just a delay setting)
Kelly KLS-S vs. Sabvoton (überabeitet)

Anyway, so many people, so many situations, so many controllers and so many preferences. It's difficult to make a good comparison. it's not like a phone where you could run some benchmarks and compare raw performance.

Anyway, back to my bike. I've set 27 pole pair, -120 hall angle and it runs. I've switched the motor wires on the controller and it ran. It runs OK, I'll post a movie. I couldn't resist but take it outside and there it's struggling a bit. From the start there is a lot of stutter and I can't just hammer the throttle since it's start cogging. Settings are the same as before but with the other pole pair and hall angle.

Oyeah, it's fast :D .. Even with half throttle or something it felt like a rocket!! I had my Dragracer app on but forgot to save the results. Might also have been because it was dark out, I had no lights, no helmet and was pumped I got the motor to turn in the first place. I saw 51xxWatt on the display at one point. At the end I was getting more on the power and the bike just died om me, first had the feeling like the throttle was still on even when I let go and had to push the brakes (which are not connected) to stop it and after that it didn't want to move. It stopped like 10meter from my house and when I was back inside I saw the fuse jumped...

EDIT: The movie: https://photos.app.goo.gl/PGcYC8fEiX7QAh6s7
j bjork wrote:
Aug 28 2020 12:03pm
Do you get rpm in the display screen if you turn it by hand?
Yes I do, also see movie.
Last edited by nardcox on Aug 28 2020 3:01pm, edited 2 times in total.

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by j bjork » Aug 28 2020 2:48pm

larsb wrote:
Aug 28 2020 2:42pm
If it was silentenduro i think he had different motors in those runs, at least from what i can recall.
Bartosh had problems too, with qs 138 70h

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by larsb » Aug 28 2020 2:53pm

Yes, off course but he didn’t compare to a kelly. I don’t seem to have the temp limiting in my old votol either so this was introduced at a later stage.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by larsb » Aug 28 2020 2:55pm

nardcox wrote:
Aug 28 2020 2:48pm
27 pole pairs
27 pole pairs.. is this correct? Which motor?

Actually, if you don’t know this it’s very easy to check.
Take a compass, aim it at the outside case of motor where your magnets are. Turn once and count number of norths (or souths). This is your pole pair number.
Last edited by larsb on Aug 28 2020 3:10pm, edited 1 time in total.

nardcox   10 W

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by nardcox » Aug 28 2020 3:05pm

larsb wrote:
Aug 28 2020 2:55pm
nardcox wrote:
Aug 28 2020 2:48pm
27 pole pairs
27 pole pairs.. is this correct? Which motor?
It's the stock motor in the Super Soco TS. It's a 1200W Bosch motor.
4th post I believe, altough he mentions the TC motor which is 1500W: https://supersocoforum.com/forum/main/k ... #post-1687
My QS only has 16 so 27 sounds like a lot but what do I know :)
Last edited by nardcox on Aug 28 2020 3:06pm, edited 1 time in total.

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by j bjork » Aug 28 2020 3:06pm

nardcox wrote:
Aug 28 2020 2:48pm
Why I choose Votol over Kelly & Sabvoton:
1. QS suggested it over the Kelly & Sabvoton
2. Most active topic on ES
3. QS could also provide and extra display for it

Without QS motor's I probably would have gone for the Sabvoton.

Downsides on Votol
1. No Bluetooth

Downside Kelly:
1. I've read the Kelly doesn't have torque control but something else. (My current esc has speed control which feels very unnatural (although you get used to it).
2. Kelly Quality Issues
3. Restart controller after settings (thats a minor minus because I plan to set it up and leave it alone unless I can't control myself :))
4. Its supposed to have some throttle lag (or perhaps it's just a delay setting)
Kelly KLS-S vs. Sabvoton (überabeitet)

Anyway, so many people, so many situations, so many controllers and so many preferences. It's difficult to make a good comparison. it's not like a phone where you could run some benchmarks and compare raw performance.

Anyway, back to my bike. I've set 27 pole pair, -120 hall angle and it runs. I've switched the motor wires on the controller and it ran. It runs OK, I'll post a movie. I couldn't resist but take it outside and there it's struggling a bit. From the start there is a lot of stutter and I can't just hammer the throttle since it's start cogging. Settings are the same as before but with the other pole pair and hall angle.

Oyeah, it's fast :D .. Even with half throttle or something it felt like a rocket!! I had my Dragracer app on but forgot to save the results. Might also have been because it was dark out, I had no lights, no helmet and was pumped I got the motor to turn in the first place. I saw 51xxWatt on the display at one point. At the end I was getting more on the power and the bike just died om me, first had the feeling like the throttle was still on even when I let go and had to push the brakes (which are not connected) to stop it and after that it didn't want to move. It stopped like 10meter from my house and when I was back inside I saw the fuse jumped...
You probably have some tuning to do. I think you shoud take it easy and try to find the right settings before you push it.
Search the forum about pole pairs and open the motor to find out.
I think you are right about votol/kelly/sabvoton. It seems sabvoton was a good controller a few years ago, but now is just a pale copy of what it once was. If you want something better later, take a look at nucular. It cant be easier than that to get a hub performing, but so far it cant match the votol on an ipm motor.

The votol sure is fast, I fear it is too fast.
With the nuc and 7:1 my ktm did 100km/h. It limits the speed with the back emf to not blow the mosfets at 95v.
With the votol and 8:1 gearing it still does over 100km/h, probably at least 110. With the nuc it would do about 90.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by nardcox » Aug 28 2020 3:15pm

j bjork wrote:
Aug 28 2020 3:06pm
You probably have some tuning to do. I think you shoud take it easy and try to find the right settings before you push it.
Search the forum about pole pairs and open the motor to find out.
Yeah definitely, from now on i'll be slowly building up the speed, I just couldn't resist after about 2 or 3 months not driving haha.
This forum doesn't have a lot of Super Soco related information unfortunately. I've asked the importer in NL about the specs but I'm skeptical if I will get an answer on my questions. Is opening the only way? I know a guy in greece who opened up his motor to replace the bearings, i'll ask if he knows anything.

Ahh Lars just read your edit, cool trick about the compass, now the challenge will be to find a compass. I'll start searching and keep you posted!

EDIT: Compass app on phone obv...

EDIT: more complicated than I thought. I wanted to test the QS motor first since I know it has 16 but didn't work so well on my phone. Perhaps I need an actual compass..
Last edited by nardcox on Aug 28 2020 3:31pm, edited 1 time in total.

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by larsb » Aug 28 2020 3:30pm

From the super soco forum
The TC hs 54 electric poles (60 permanent magnets), that is 27 pole pairs.
I wouldn’t trust someone that gets 60 magnets to be 27 pole pairs..

One pair is two magnets, 60magnets is 30 pole pairs if this wasn’t clear. Yeezus.

The other thing is if you haven’t even got the same motor then why use this number at all?

Just measure it

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by nardcox » Aug 28 2020 3:35pm

I'll try to measure once I have the compass, also asked the greek already, hopefully he replies.
The TS & TC motor might actually be the same with a difference in software, there's some debat on that (guess nobody is opening up their motors).
Yeah the 60 > 54 > 27 also seemed off to me, good to know my gut feeling was right.
However you can also have multiple magnet to make a pole right?
So 60 magnets can be 30 pole pairs (pair = 2 x 1 magnet), or 15 pole pairs (pair = 2 x 2 magnets) or am I'm misinformed?
https://static.rcgroups.net/forums/atta ... agnets.jpg
Last edited by nardcox on Aug 28 2020 4:03pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by larsb » Aug 28 2020 3:38pm

Yes, this is true. You’d never go from 60 to 54 though.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by nardcox » Aug 28 2020 4:04pm

Yeah, that's some straight up magic math :lol:

Found a video of someone opening a TS motor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2ONwtUexvw
I count 54 magnets so the options are:
27 x 2 = possible
24 x 3 = yeahh..no
13,5 x 4 = don't think so
10,8 x 5 = not very likely
9 x 6 = possible??

At 1:18 you can see the other side of the magnet, you might be able to check the poles from that? I've also asked the question in the comments but he doesn't really seem to respond much.

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Re: Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

Post by larsb » Aug 28 2020 4:24pm

Please keep this votol thread on topic. You have your other thread to discuss all non votol issues.

Please beware that in your thread fechter is talking about hall spacing 120 degrees and that phase angle is not the same.

Phase angle directs when the coils are fired in relation to when the hall sensor states change. A poor setting of the phase angle (also called timing) is like firing a petrol engine cylinder in the middle of the upwards stroke of the piston and not close to the top dead centre.

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