CYC X1 Pro -- can't find this in the US

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xtinctionRebeller   10 W

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CYC X1 Pro -- can't find this in the US

Post by xtinctionRebeller » May 12 2020 10:22am

I'd like to buy a CYC X1 Pro but Paypal is a show-stopper. I might be willing to import it from the EU (they take credit card) but the price steepens quite a bit particularly after the FX conversion and then from there I think it would be difficult or impossible to get a VAT refund. (The big price increase is perhaps to some extent factoring in the avoidance of risk in dealing with China).

GNG seems to be rebranding these as their own, which complicates the search effort. GNG is also a Paypal-only shop.

I think I'm S.O.L. but if anyone knows of a US distributor please let me know. Thanks.
Last edited by xtinctionRebeller on May 12 2020 11:15am, edited 1 time in total.

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: CYC X1 Pro -- can't find this in the US

Post by Merlin » May 12 2020 10:33am

whats wrong with PP?

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xtinctionRebeller   10 W

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Re: CYC X1 Pro -- can't find this in the US

Post by xtinctionRebeller » May 12 2020 10:50am

Merlin wrote:
May 12 2020 10:33am
whats wrong with PP?
Paypal has ripped me off personally. Paypal also generally treats Tor users (like myself) with hostility in the course of trying to login and do transactions, and they're incompetent with recovering locked/blocked accounts. There are several ethical problems with Paypal as well. The fact that they share data with 600 different companies is a show-stopper alone (for me).

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: CYC X1 Pro -- can't find this in the US

Post by Merlin » May 12 2020 11:01am

I see. But... Do you have friends?
Just give them the money and let them do the pp thing.

I truly understand sometimes things getting against own religion.

But easiest and cheapest is always buying from cyc direct.

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Re: CYC X1 Pro -- can't find this in the US

Post by john61ct » May 12 2020 12:38pm

Doing a wire transfer is usually an option.

Most people are really happy when a vendor accepts PP since their buyer protection is so much better than 99.99% of credit cards.

Usually PP acceptance is hard to find, most sellers do not accept any payments with any buyer protection.

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xtinctionRebeller   10 W

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Re: CYC X1 Pro -- can't find this in the US

Post by xtinctionRebeller » May 12 2020 6:48pm

john61ct wrote:
May 12 2020 12:38pm
Most people are really happy when a vendor accepts PP since their buyer protection is so much better than 99.99% of credit cards.
Tell me if I missed anything:

Code: Select all

+--------------------------------------+----------------------------------------+-----------------------------+------------------------+
|          consumer benefit            |             US credit card             |           Paypal            |          wire          |
+--------------------------------------+----------------------------------------+-----------------------------+------------------------+
|ID theft protection                   |  $1000 limit                           |  zero                       |  zero (but not needed) |
|return protection (90 day guarantee)  |  yes (limits: $250/claim, $1k/year)    |  no                         |  no                    |
|price protection (60 day guarantee)   |  yes (limits: $250/item, $1k/year)     |  no                         |  no                    |
|extended warranty                     |  yes (double MFR warranty; 1yr limit)  |  no                         |  no                    |
|dispute resolution (contractual)      |  yes                                   |  yes                        |  no                    |
|default resolution favors             |  consumer                              |  merchant                   |  merchant              |
|transaction fee (international)       |  zero                                  |  5% up to $5 + funding fee  |  $0-50 (usually $30)   |
|risk to funds                         |  none                                  |  (1)                        |  (2)                   |
+--------------------------------------+----------------------------------------+-----------------------------+------------------------+
(1) arbitrary account freezing
(2) Money going to wrong account is impossible to claw back and receiving banks charge an hourly rate to fix errors.

Return protection guarantees the option to return a product simply if dissatisfied. E.g. if the merchant offers only a 14 day return policy, the credit card offers an additional 76 days.

Price protection gives the consumer the right to claim the price difference if they later spot the same product sold for less (by the same merchant or a different merchant).

Credit cards naturally charge the consumer *after* the order is placed, and in effect usually after delivery. To be holding your money at that point is a big advantage from a consumer protection standpoint. The bank doesn't have your money yet, so if the bank rules against you and you still don't concede, the bank has the burdon of suing you and collecting. That burdon is reversed with Paypal. When Paypal has the payer's money there less incentive to favor the payer. Moreover, if a bank rules against the consumer, it's trivially easy for the consumer to switch banks. But if the merchant wants to switch to another competitor there's little choice. The merchant is at the mercy of Paypal and the credit card networks because losing a payment method for all transactions can be a devastating impact. So a credit card companies don't have as much pressure to please merchants as banks have to please their credit card holders.

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Re: CYC X1 Pro -- can't find this in the US

Post by john61ct » May 12 2020 8:32pm

Maybe you have comprehension issues?

I did not say PP protection was better than the CC **you** have access to.

99.99999% of the wofld is not so privileged.

I have gotten 100% no questions asked refunds from both eBay and PayPal for many dozens of transactions over the years.

I very rarely reveal my credit card information to a merchant directly anymore.

For well over a thousand transactions over twenty years, since it was X.com in fact, PP has never given me a spec of trouble.

Others have not been so lucky I know, and I would never leave a large deposit sitting there.

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: CYC X1 Pro -- can't find this in the US

Post by Merlin » May 13 2020 4:08am

For buyers pp is very good. For sellers it's shit.

Not about the fees. It's how they handle disputes. (for sellers)
You can be sure that 95% of time they are on buyers side.

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xtinctionRebeller   10 W

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Re: CYC X1 Pro -- can't find this in the US

Post by xtinctionRebeller » May 13 2020 6:18am

john61ct wrote:
May 12 2020 8:32pm
Maybe you have comprehension issues?

I did not say PP protection was better than the CC **you** have access to.

99.99999% of the wofld is not so privileged.
I understood your BS claim and didn't find it worthy of a response. Since you continue to push that figure (which is both incorrect and irrelevant), you need to realize that the US population alone accounts for over 4% of the world population. So 3.99999% of your figure is including US cards (and if fact much more than that once you consider the avg. American has over ten different credit cards while most ppl outside the US tend to have ~0-2 at most). Credit cards in Canada and the UK have similar protections to the US cards. And since I'm in the US, it's only that US portion of credit cards that matter to me, not the irrelevant other 96%. There is no incentive or interest in reducing my protections to that of less fortunate consumers in Asia, Europe, third worlds, etc.

Why are you working so hard to sell Paypal to US credit card holders? To us it's both a downgrade in consumer protection and the company is also unethical.
john61ct wrote:
May 12 2020 8:32pm
I have gotten 100% no questions asked refunds from both eBay and PayPal for many dozens of transactions over the years.
It's my experience that matters here, not yours, b/c it's my transaction that's at issue. Paypal ripped me off. I'm one of the many people who experienced an arbitrary account freeze and my money has been taken by Paypal.
john61ct wrote:
May 12 2020 8:32pm
I very rarely reveal my credit card information to a merchant directly anymore.
Instead, your transaction data is shared with 600 companies. Paypal knows who both parties are in great detail (with their above and beyond KYC program) and sees the whole transaction to exploit the data share to the most exploitive extent. Networks of Visa, MC, Amex, etc, don't even know the identity of the person spending the money. They just have a bank and a number. Only the bank knows who holds the card, and there are countless banks so no single entity has the full picture. And for Americans there are no worries about merchants getting CC#s -- thanks to regulation E (comparable to "section 75" in the UK). Individual personal cardholders are legally immune to fraud damages, and those that want to be extra needlessly cautious have disposable one-time-use CC#s so they need not reveal a reusable CC# to a merchant.
Last edited by xtinctionRebeller on May 13 2020 6:38am, edited 2 times in total.

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: CYC X1 Pro -- can't find this in the US

Post by Merlin » May 13 2020 6:26am

Merlin wrote:
May 12 2020 11:01am
I see. But... Do you have friends?
Just give them the money and let them do the pp thing.
alot of effort here talking about payment options.

so you dont have friends?

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xtinctionRebeller   10 W

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Re: CYC X1 Pro -- can't find this in the US

Post by xtinctionRebeller » May 13 2020 6:30am

Merlin wrote:
May 13 2020 6:26am
alot of effort here talking about payment options.

so you dont have friends?
You need quotes around "friends". I obviously would not subject my friends to the risks of Paypal (which become even more heightened when goods are shipped to someone other than the account holder). And in fact I would not subject any "friends" to Paypal either, since I'm not willing to feed Paypal's bottom line (it's unethical to feed Paypal -- particularly for liberals). Even if there were no ethical problems with patronizing PP, if a problem arises I wouldn't be able to sue Paypal because the transaction wouldn't be in my name -- nor would I ask a friend to sue on my behalf.
Last edited by xtinctionRebeller on May 13 2020 6:49am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: CYC X1 Pro -- can't find this in the US

Post by john61ct » May 13 2020 6:46am

Merlin wrote:For buyers pp is very good. For sellers it's shit.

Not about the fees. It's how they handle disputes. (for sellers)
You can be sure that 95% of time they are on buyers side.
Yes, exactly.

Whenever I show people how easy it is to override a seller's "as is only, no returns" bluff, I caution that, with great power comes great responsibility

Do not use it to become a scammer yourself, if the 100% NQAMBG gets abused too much it will get taken away.

That's when we can't nice stuff

why so many credit cards even in the US are backing off their support of buyer protection

most people, who just can't qualify for the few premium cards that offer good support

only have PP to rely on.

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Re: CYC X1 Pro -- can't find this in the US

Post by john61ct » May 13 2020 6:47am

wall o' text, TL;DR
xtinctionRebeller wrote:I understood your BS claim and didn't find it worthy of a response. Since you continue to push that figure (which is both incorrect and irrelevant), you need to realize that the US population alone accounts for over 4% of the world population. So 3.99999% of your figure is including US cards (and if fact much more than that once you consider the avg. American has over ten different credit cards while most ppl outside the US tend to have ~0-2 at most). Credit cards in Canada and the UK have similar protections to the US cards. And since I'm in the US, it's only that US portion of credit cards that matter to me, not the irrelevant other 96%. There is no incentive or interest in reducing my protections to that of less fortunate consumers in Asia, Europe, third worlds, etc.

Why are you working so hard to sell Paypal to US credit card holders? To us it's both a downgrade in consumer protection and the company is also unethical.
john61ct wrote:
May 12 2020 8:32pm
I have gotten 100% no questions asked refunds from both eBay and PayPal for many dozens of transactions over the years.
It's my experience that matters here, not yours, b/c it's my transaction that's at issue. Paypal ripped me off. I'm one of the many people who experienced an arbitrary account freeze and my money has been taken by Paypal.
john61ct wrote:
May 12 2020 8:32pm
I very rarely reveal my credit card information to a merchant directly anymore.
Instead, your transaction data is shared with 600 companies. Paypal knows who both parties are in great detail (with their above and beyond KYC program) and sees the whole transaction to exploit the data share to the most exploitive extent. Networks of Visa, MC, Amex, etc, don't even know the identity of the person spending the money. They just have a bank and a number. Only the bank knows who holds the card, and there are countless banks so no single entity has the full picture. And for Americans there are no worries about merchants getting CC#s -- thanks to regulation E (comparable to "section 75" in the UK). Individual personal cardholders are legally immune to fraud damages, and those that want to be extra needlessly cautious have disposable one-time-use CC#s so they need not reveal a reusable CC# to a merchant.

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