My Jeep Comanche E-Bike

This is my third ebike build and like the previous two follows the same basic formula; a 700C/29er frame with a small geared front motor. My first bike (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8579) simply rode too stiffly on rough rodes and trails, the second (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10458) with its steel frame and big tires was my favorite and I rode for it thousands of miles. Still with the straight, stiff fork I needed to keep the front tire pressure quite low (<30 psi) to get any real “suspension” from it. I also wanted disc brakes which leads me to this third build.

I picked up a new Jeep Comanche 29er mountain bike on eBay for about half of list price ($150 delivered). It has an inexpensive Zoom suspension fork with STEEL lowers making it perfect for a front motor. The fork has no adjustments whatsoever and limited 65mm travel but for the road and for what I want it does the trick. Here’s a pic from the Manufacturer’s (Kent) site;




After transferring a number of parts (wheels,crank,fenders,brake levers,shifter) from my now decommissioned Raleigh ebike and the Topeak bag and controller from the Kona Smoke I sold the bike looks like this;










I really like the way the bike turned out especially considering the low investment. On the road the bike rides smoothly with the front suspension providing just enough give when hitting ramped curbs and pot-holes.

-R

Nice clean looking ride Russell. I like.

Thanks.

It's the cheapest bike I've ever bought and the paint job leaves a lot to be desired but the frame is well made. I ride a large frame and did have to swap out the seat post for a 400mm one but otherwise it fits me well. It was easy to upgrade with my used parts and now it's more a "hybrid" bike for the road than a mountain "29'er" but that suits the riding I do. A long 114cm wheelbase helps make it stable and the short travel front suspension fork takes the hard hits which my arms used to have to absorb on previous rigid fork bikes. Overall it does make a good basis for an inexpensive ebike conversion.

-R

Russell,
25 questions :lol:
You were last using the Ebike kit mini-motor[best left un-named, I guess], why did you go back to the GM?
Is that GM the one you rebuilt using parts from a Bafang?
Did you try mounting the motor with the stock disc? Clearance issues?
Are you are still using the Ecrazyman controller[can't tell from pic., it looks a little large], is it un-modified, something around 17 Amps?
Still using 12S of Lipo.?
That triangle space sure looks inviting, is it because your pack is small that you resist going there?
Thanks

Gary

Motomech,

I used the E-BikeKit mini-motor for several thousand miles and it performed very well. Speed was just right with the 51.2V LiFePO4 battery I had but that battery died. I sold the motor/wheel for a number of reasons but mainly because I was converting the Kona Smoke bike on which it was being used back to original condition for resale. The plan was to use just my Raleigh ebike with the Bafang but the bike was too punishing on the roads around here so I scrapped it and moved the parts to the Jeep.

The motor on this bike was purchased from Golden Motor but it is a Bafang so that's what I often call it. The first Mini Motor they sent me had a damaged case so they sent me another complete motor. That's another reason I'm using the Mini, because I have a spare motor core I could drop in if this one is damaged.

I tried the stock 160mm rotor but the caliper hit the outward bound spokes (heads facing in). I had to go all the way up to 203mm to clear the spokes. If I had built the wheel with all of the heads facing out it probably would have cleared.

I'm not presently using the Ecrazyman sensorless controller. It works quite well with the geared motor but not as good as the Universal 9-FET controller (in sensored mode) from BMS Battery you see attached to the seatpost. This is a nice controller that doesn't get much press here. It can operate in sensorless mode to help get me home should a hall sensor go out, it has cruise (which I don't use), and it has a DYNAMIC LVC circuit, not a fixed LVC voltage, which adjusts to the battery being used (more on this below).

Yeah my only battery as of now is a pair of 6S 5000MAh Zippys. Because I don't have any cell level protection on the pack I rely on the LVC of the controller to keep the overall pack voltage from going too low. This is when the dynamic LVC circuit of the BMS Battery controller comes in handy. I haven't seen any documentation on it but it appears to sense an unusual delta V as a weak battery at which time it cuts power. I ran the battery to the limit yesterday and today and it does work to keep the pack from dropping too low for its own good.

I'm still trying to decide on a larger battery to buy. When I do buy it though it will go into the rear trunk bag. I pedal a lot and need water so I don't want to loose the WB cage :|

-R

Russell,

Ah yes, I remember the motor with the damaged housing now. It was decent of GM to send you another. Frankly, with the procession of motors you have used, it's a little difficult to keep track. A bit like the peanut in the shell game :lol:

The Hightecbike kit[MXUS]that I have came with all the spokes as "inners", but still, the spoke heads just clipped the stock[placement]caliper. I spent more time carefully grinding clearance on the caliper than I did with the wheel fitment.

Interesting about the LVC feature of the BMS Battery 9-FET controller, I had no idea. I will be using my C.A. for LVC, so I will probably stick with my stock Shenzhen controller. I have a Holmes Hobbies Mini-Stealth controller[23A actual] as a spare that I might try out sometime. Perhaps with the C.A. current limiter.

Concerning a larger pack, why wouldn't you add more bricks to your two Zippy's?
I'm in the process of putting together a Lipo pack at the moment. Like you when you did yours, I'm doing a bit of soul searching as to which configuration, 12S, 13S[I also have a spare 48V Li-on charger not being used] or 14S. And like you, I'm going to go with 12S for simplicity's sake. The Turnigy 6S 5000 mAh [20C] from the USA warehouse for $42.63 ea. seem to be the best overall deal at the moment and 22 to 23 m.p.h. is fast enough for me.
Now the charger decisions

At any rate, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your reviews. I've read every one, at least twice[even with the messed-up text]. Your voice of sanity and ability to resist the upward power spiral has brought me back to Earth more than once.

BTW, poor paint job not withstanding, the burnt orange color w/ the black accents look great.

Gary

I haven't done all that much wih this bike except ride it (1,167 miles as of today). I know folks on this board love their high-powered e-bikes but I will say again that a small 250W geared motor is the perfect motor for a human-electric powered hybrid bicycle. I built a more powerful e-bike which I can ride like a scooter if I wish but for cycling fun I always choose this Jeep/Bafang bike because it is more like riding a conventional bike...only faster.

What makes this bike more fun is the little high-speed Bafang motor which on a freshly charged 12S LiPo pack will accelerate me up to 29 mph with the low to mid 30's easy to reach on any down grade (somewhat limited by leg speed w/42-12 gears). Yes, being a higher speed motor in a 700C rim it definitely lacks low speed grunt so I do need to keep it above 14 mph under load lest it (audibly) protest, but that's where the human power comes into play. With enough gears in back (...yes I use them) I can keep the motor in its' happy place and get plenty of exercise doing it.

One thing I have done is upgrade the battery from 2x6S 5AH Zippys to 2x6S Turnigy 8AH NanoTech LiPos. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=40636&start=15#p600251 So far I am impressed with these batteries; internal resistance is quite low which translates into little voltage sag under load and they stay very well balanced. I probably wouldn’t need to balance them at all ‘cept I’m kind of anal about it so I do it every few charges anyway. :?

Another thing I have done is play with controllers. The controller I used initially was a BMSbattery “universal” 9-FET controller. I like this controller since it has an adaptive LVC that works on both 36V and 48V packs. It also works sensorless but not very well with a freewheeling geared motor. For fun I tried my Ecrazyman 6-FET 18A sensorless controller again but while it originally impressed me this time around on this motor it needed a light touch on the throttle on take-off or it would hammer. Also as I noted the first time I used it will hammer a bit if the throttle is pulled abruptly after coasting without power for a while. The controller I’m running now is a 48V KU93 9-FET (also from BMSbattery). I enjoy using the (8-sec) auto cruise feature and the LVC provides some level of protection for my LiPo pack. Initially when I switched to this controller I cut one of the shunts to run at 15 amps but the motor felt very lethargic. I've run small slow-wind geared motors at 48V/15A with good results however this faster wound motor does seem to need more current to get it going. Also since I was into the throttle for a longer period of time at 15A I saw no difference in power consumption so I tweaked the controller back to 20A. Today I tried this controller sensorless and was truly impressed. The only price for this performance is a slight but noticeable lag between applying the throttle and response from the motor. I also got it to “burp” once under load up a hill when I let go then reapplied the throttle…but that was it. It is difficult to tell this controller is running sensorless, it’s that good!

This brings me to the reason I ran the controller in sensorless mode today. In search of some FREE power I replaced 6 ft of the stock puny motor wiring with 3.5 ft of 12AWG cable.




I wanted to get out and test the mod and the controller in sensorless mode so I didn't make up a hall sensor cable. The cable swap is a small change but I could instantly detect something was different the first time I pulled the throttle. The geared motor runs pretty quiet however at low speed/high load conditions it does generate some noise and today after the mod it was significantly louder and it did feel stronger and seemed to pull better up hills. After a few rides I'll try it sensored again to see if there is a difference. In the future I'd like to get my hands on a controller with IRFB3077 FETs to see how much of a difference the low RDSon resistance of those devices makes in the real world.

-R

I finally broke 50 MPH

Yeah it was downhill and only for an instant at the very bottom but it stands as the record speed on any of my e-bikes.



Getting up the hill with the little (high-speed 9.1 RPM/V) 250W Bafang on 12S LiPo at 20A was another thing. The hill in question is the steepest I know of in the area rising at a steady 13% for 1,000 feet. I tried it with my other e-bike sporting a (8.3 RPM/V) Bafang BPM, first at 20A then at 27A, (both on 12S LiPo) and crested the hill at 10 and 14 MPH respectively while pedaling vigorously. It was with some trepidation that I approached what looks like a wall rising in front of me spinning fast in the seldom used 30T front chainring at about 20 MPH. That speed dropped quickly and at 10 MPH the motor was below its' happy place and loudly protesting. I thought about turning back but instead downshifted to the lowest gear combo (30T/30T) and pedaled with part-throttle at 7 MPH to the top of the hill. I turned around, flew down the hill and completed the remainder of the 34 mile ride.

-R

The first major change to the Jeep Comanche since I built it.

I bought a front Cute 100 kit from an E-S member over a year ago but only now got around to using it. The wheel build was awful with all the spokes loose, the wheel out of round and the rim no where near centered. An hour or so on the truing stand however fixed that up. I planned on using the motor on a new bike I'm building but after I figured out how slow it would be I decided to put it on the Jeep instead.



The Cute 100 is about 15mm smaller in diameter than the GM Mini it replaces. I dropped down to a 160mm rotor from 203mm.



As I mentioned above this was originally intended for a new bike (a lighter flat-bar road e-bike) so for the time being I have mounted 700 x 32 Schwalbe Durano road tires. These wire-bead versions at 400 grams are no lighter than the 700 x 40 Kenda Kwick Rollers I had been using however they greatly improved handling and surprisingly did not add much harshness. That said I have some 28 x 2.15 Schwalbe Big Apples on order which will replace them soon.



As for the performance of the Cute motor, well it's anemic, even by mini-geared motor standards. I'm using the same KU-93 controller I have been using with my fast-wound GM Mini (Bafang) that I detuned to 15A a while back and the same 12S LiPo battery but this motor is far weaker. With this slow-wind Cute I expected some decent low-end torque but all I can say is that it is smooth and quiet. Top speed with a full charge is about 21 MPH which is less than both a slow-wind Bafang and E-Bikekit geared motor I've used in the past. And of course it's far slower than the fast-wind (328 RPM) Bafang I was using.

I've only done a couple rides with the Cute and find it quite acceptable as an assist motor though I would recommend the other slightly larger mini geared motors for most people. It gets me up hills slower than the speedy Mini but without the groans from that motor which protested loudly if I let the rev's drop too low. I do miss the ability to crank 'er up to the high 20's but overall my average speed over a familiar route is essentially the same with perhaps a bit less power used per mile.

-R

How do like dem apples?



I had Schwalbe 700x2.00” Marathon Supremes on a past bike and really liked them and always wanted to try the Big Apples. These 28x2.15” BA's are waaaaaaaay bigger then the Schwalbe Durano 700x32 road tires they replace. Those tires are meant for another bike but I was anxious to try them out. That’s almost too bad because they are a tough act to follow. The Big Apples with pre-slimed tube combo adds over 600g PER wheel and that weight can be felt. The BA's pumped to just 30psi front and 35psi back are cushy though. It's not "floating on a cloud" type of thing but more like every road imperfection is muffled. I had to pay attention while traversing a road being prepped for resurfacing with the Duranos but the BA's almost made that rough stretch disappear. The BA's can't match the sharp handling of the Duranos but like the Duranos and the Marathon Supremes they do inspire confidence. Got a fast turn? No problem, just lean ‘er over and the Schwalbe’s grip.

I first mounted the Big Apples while still running the Cute Q100 on front. Top speed increased a little, perhaps 0.5 MPH due to the larger circumference. With limited power on-tap from the Cute motor the bike actually felt a little slower. Then I noticed that E-BikeKit was once again selling motors separately. I purchased one of their geared motors during the initial introduction and did like the torquey little motor but sold it because I wanted to get down to just one bike (now I have 4 in various states of assembly ) . Anywho, I bought another front motor/wheel during their Labor Day sale.



I transferred the tire/tube from the Cute to the EBK wheel and left everything else the same so I could do a back to back comparison. Before the switch I once again checked the no-load speed of the Cute. I had replaced the throttle because it wasn’t quite giving me full speed so this time I got a calculated 6.4 RPM/V (vs 6.2) for the Cute (27.0 MPH@49.4V/2285mm circumference). The EBK geared motor I owned previously spun at 6.6 RPM/V so I naturally expected the same for this latest EBK motor, I was surprised then to see it spin up to 37.1 MPH@49.0V or 8.9 RPM/V. It even ran faster sensorless, 38.2 MPH@49.0V. That’s essentially the same as a fast-wound “328RPM” Bafang I own and used on this bike before the Cute.

Did Jason go to a faster wind or did I mistakenly get a motor destined for a 20” wheel. I don’t know. I was anxious to try it out but only had enough time for a shorter 18 mile trip, which actually turned out to be fortuitous (more on that later). Taking off the motor did not have the gutsy feel I remember but I expected that given the faster wind. It is much quieter under load than my fast Bafang unfortunately today’s route didn’t have any good hills to fully test it. It is somewhat noisier than the smooth Cute. Out on the flats the top speed was a bit shy of 25 MPH or about 3 MPH faster than the Cute. The EBK motor however still provided assist at speed at least 5 MPH faster than the Cute. I am running a 15A controller which limited my fast Bafang to a max around 27 MPH. I suspect the long motor phase cable supplied with the Cute and used with the EBK motor as well is sapping quite a bit of power. I know it really woke up the previous Bafang when I shortened the cable exiting the motor and ran 12 gauge wire to the controller. I plan on doing that with the EBK motor soon to get some “free” power.

Now the bad…well maybe it’s bad, it might just be too soon to tell. Since as I said I was only riding 18 miles I only took along my 12S/8AH pack. This has always been enough in the past so it surprised me when at 17 miles the controller LVC kicked in! Yes I was pushing hard, averaging a quick 20.8 MPH at the time, but I was shocked when I got home to find I had used 7.7 AH or 339 WH. That’s a whopping, for me anyway, 19.9 WH/mile over the first 17 miles. More investigation is needed and I do need to ride the same route a few time at my usual pace of 17-18 MPH before passing judgment. BTW, I rode the exact same route with my original EBK geared motor 3 years ago at 20.0 MPH and used just 11.6 WH/mile (that was back when rode quite a bit more and logged every ride).

-R

Took another spin over the same 18.1 mile loop but this time at an average speed of 18.1 mph or at the high side of a typical ride. The result was 13.2 Wh/mi used which is still a little high for me. With a faster wind it is harder to ride conservatively so maybe I'm just out of practice.

BTW Jason at EBK did confirm they switched to a faster wind about 1.5 years ago for the geared motor. IMO they should have opted for something square in the middle between the old slow-wind (~6.6 RPM/V) and this wind (~9 RPM/V).

I dunno...I ended up swapping out a too fast Bafang for a too slow Cute and then back to a too fast EBK geared motor. Maybe I'll go back to the Cute Q100 and run it at 14S as I had planned and use the EBK on my new build.

Hmmm...good thing I enjoy messing around with this stuff almost as much as riding.

-R

On another thread there was a discussion about the rolling resistance of W-I-D-E tires vs. that of narrow tires. Some folks feel you can have your cake and eat it too, and frankly I was wishing it was so since I just spent $100 on a pair of Schwalbe Big Apples and new tubes. The BA's are fine tires and they do what big tires do, they smoothen out the road imperfections for a more comfortable ride but can they roll faster than narrower tires too?

I had been riding on 700 x 40 Kenda Kwick Rollers since building this E-bike however I wanted to try some better tires. I bought a pair of 700 x 32 Schwalbe Durano road tires for a new bike I'm building up but since it's not done yet I tried them out on the Jeep. The wire bead models I purchased are no lighter than the Kenda's however their smoother tread and likely superior materials make them handle and roll better. Then came the Schwalbe Big Apples, size 28” x 2.15” which as I said do much to muffle the rough stuff but I also felt they slowed me down and were harder to pedal.

With that in mind I conducted a little tire experiment this afternoon. I rode my usual 18.1 mile course with the Schwalbe Big Apples, removed them and mounted up the original Kenda Kwick Rollers, then rode the same 18.1 mile course again. The empirical results are;

Schwalbe BA’s: 230.0 Watt-hours used over 18.1 miles at 18.3 MPH or 12.7 Wh/mi


Kenda KR’s: 213.3 Watt-hours over 18.1 miles at 18.0 MPH or 11.8 Wh/mi

I would have liked to get the speed closer on the second ride, and I thought I had, but then I saw the miles were reading high by 1.6% so I had to correct the final average speed downward by the same amount. I also rode the same course yesterday after work with the BA’s and used 13.2 Wh/mi compared to today's 12.7 Wh/mi.

While the consumption was lower for the Kenda’s it was a bit slower ride and it’s only one set of data. What the numbers don’t show is the feel of the bike. The ride was harsher with the Kendas compared to the Schwalbe’s as one would expect but the Kwick Rollers did feel quicker. The pair of Big Apples w/tubes weigh 1295g more than the Kwick Rollers w/tubes and that 2.85 lbs can definitely be felt. I would have liked to try the Schwalbe Duranos today but I have them mounted on my new bike and didn't want to remove and remount them. I’ll just have to wait until I get that bike finished and then do a back-to-back ride comparison between it and the Jeep.

-R

Another year, another little front geared motor to try. This time it’s an Outrider. I actually bought the motor last year at the same time I ordered a YOUE. I laced up the YOUE right away and used it on both my Nashbar Flatbar bike and then on this Jeep Comanche. I am impressed with the YOUE and moved it to my recent Gravity Hybrid bike build. This Outrider is smaller in diameter (~128mm vs 144mm) and a slower wind (7.2 RPM/V vs 8.0 RPM/V) compared to the YOUE. I laced it to a Sun Rhyno Lite rim using Sapim 13/14g spokes. Even though the motor is small I still laced it with all spoke heads out to make sure there would be adequate disc caliper clearance.

It all but disappears behind the 160mm brake rotor;



But it’s there!



I went on the first ride with the motor a couple of weeks ago. It was just a short ride on 36V with the 22A KU93 controller I had been using with the YOUE last year. It seemed quiet and smooth with a top speed of a little over 20 mph w/28x2.15 Big Apples. I was concentrating on my new build and just got back to the Jeep/Outrider today. This time I headed out with an older 48V KU93 controller with one clipped shunt for 15A peak and 12S/16AH of LiPo.

I really enjoy riding this bike, so much so I forgot to turn home and ended up taking a longer 41 mile route. The motor makes a bit of noise from a start, but then they all do. It is quiet when cruising. Top speed today with 12S LiPo was a bit over 24 mph. There are a couple of 8% hills about 5 miles from the end of today’s ride that I use to compare motors. This one felt on the weak side going up and I crested then both at 13 mph (with pedaling of course), or perhaps slightly better than the slower Cute Q100 I tried out briefly [strike]last year[/strike] in 2013 on this bike (using same detuned KU93/12S battery).

Overall I wasn’t unhappy with the motor until I got home and felt the case. It was hot where I could not keep my hand on it for more than a couple of seconds. With a trip average speed of 17.7 mph it wasn’t like I was pushing it hard so it did surprise me especially considering it was only 60 degrees out. I will try again with the original 22A KU93 and 36V battery.

One other thing I have to sort out is a horrible front shake I discovered when taking weight off the handlebars. The bike has always been super stable and still is as long as I have my weight on the handlebars. Though I don’t tend to ride no-handed I did try it with my recent Gravity Hybrid build with no problems. I did ride with the Big Apples [strike]last season[/strike] in 2013 a few times and don’t recall any issues other then they made the bike feel more comfortable… but also a bit sluggish to pedal. I switched back to the lightweight (420g) Kenda 700x40C tires I had been using for several seasons already for easier pedaling and a sportier feel.

-R

The motor makes a bit of noise from a start, but then they all do. It is quiet when cruising.

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Not all. The tiny SO6S sine-wave mated with a Cute is dead silent, even at start up. It's eeire.

It was hot where I could not keep my hand on it for more than a couple of seconds.

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Hummm, not good. With my high-speed Cutes in wheels a little big for the wind, I heat up the controller long before the motor.
Although, I could get the MXUS hot like that by forcing it up long hills with a 22 Amp controller.
Can't "force" a single 328 Q100 up a hill, it just stops

One other thing I have to sort out is a horrible front shake I discovered when taking weight off the handlebars.

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You think maybe the slime has congeled/lumped-up in the Tube?

I have recently replaced my old MXUS with the Q100H (260). The Hall-less MXUS driven by my a 22 A Infineon sounded like a dentist drill.
Before I changed the Infineon with something calmer, I ran the Cute H with it and the same 12S pack. Performance was on par with the MXUS. Maybe the H was a little quicker off the line and the MXUS held top speed a little better when faced with an incline. The Mxus is a mile or two faster.
I tried to make the sine-waves work for me, both the SO6S and the S12S, but couldn't. They just won't read the 12S Voltage wich causes a few problems. That, and I really wanted a controller in size and rating between the 14A SO6S and the very large 23A S12S.
These days, my perfered controller is the 9-FET 17A from Elifebike, mated with the simple 810 meter. This controller is sturdy, not prone to over-heating and and have useful LVC's for both 12S (42V) and 9S (31V). And it's almost as quiet as the Sines waves.
Overall, I'm impressed with the Q100H. 2.3 Kg. mini performance in a 1.8 Kg. package.

Russell said:

Overall I wasn’t unhappy with the motor until I got home and felt the case. It was hot where I could not keep my hand on it for more than a couple of seconds. With a trip average speed of 17.7 mph it wasn’t like I was pushing it hard so it did surprise me especially considering it was only 60 degrees out. I will try again with the original 22A KU93 and 36V battery.
-R

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Today I switched to a 36V pack (42.0V max) and a later version 36V/48V 21A KU93. I do prefer the instant go of the older version KU93 rather than the soft-start on this one. I confirmed the top speed of the 260 RPM Outrider was 20.5 mph (28x2.15 tires). I went out for a 31 mile ride that included the same two 8% hills 5 miles from the end of the route. At an hour into the ride I hit an average speed of 17.7 mph, the same as at the end of yesterday's longer ride. I felt the motor case, it was just barely warm. At 24 miles with an average of 17.9 mph I checked it again just before the 2 hills. It was just slightly warmer. By this time the performance was getting quite lackluster and I crested the 2 hills about 1 mph slower than yesterday on 12S and the 15A controller. I used full throttle the entire last 5 miles and while the motor was slow I still inched the average speed up to 18.0 mph. The motor was now quite warm but I could leave my hand on it as long as I cared to. Power used per mile was down 6% from yesterday, 13.3 vs 14.2 Wh/mi, and the outside temp was up 12 degrees to 72F.

motomech said:

One other thing I have to sort out is a horrible front shake I discovered when taking weight off the handlebars.

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You think maybe the slime has congeled/lumped-up in the Tube?

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I was thinking more along the lines of the weight of the Big Apple and larger Slimed tube. I did yank the wheel and checked to see if it was still true on my stand. I did replace the 350g Slimed tube with a regular 216g tube. It didn't make a difference. Sitting up and releasing the handlebars the shake begins at around 14 mph and becomes violent very quickly at higher speeds. It could easily cause me to wipe out if I didn't lean forward and grab the bars. The bike is so stable otherwise but now that I think about it I don't believe in the 3+ years of riding this bike I ever tried it no-hands. I do remember always noting that the front fender would tend to shake some when I lifted one hand to drink from the water bottle, so perhaps this isn't a new phenomenon.

I did some reading into what causes this kind of shaking and there seems to be no cut and dried answer. Apparently the idea about a loose or worn headset is incorrect, though I checked it anyway. There is some consensus that it's a function of the frame stiffness, especially the top tube, along with weight distribution (the higher the worse it is) and geometry, especially of the front of the bike.

The bike is no longer made by Kent but there was no geometry info there anyway. I used this website http://www.bicyclecalculator.co.uk/createamap.htm
to model this bike as well as my Gravity bike and Nashbar frame that I do have some geometry info for. What the model showed was a large amount of "trail" for the Jeep bike. With the fork uncompressed I get 92mm which is far more than the Gravity (63mm w/700x38 tires) or the Nashbar (60mm with 700x32 tires). Larger wheels and tires also increase trail. The program indicates the 28x2.15 tires add about 7mm to this bike compared to 700x40's.

So the next thing to try will be the original Kenda 700x40 tires and tubes. I'll also go back to 12S LiPo for the next ride since 36V is just no fun.

-R

motomech said:

These days, my perfered controller is the 9-FET 17A from Elifebike, mated with the simple 810 meter. This controller is sturdy, not prone to over-heating and and have useful LVC's for both 12S (42V) and 9S (31V). And it's almost as quiet as the Sines waves.
Overall, I'm impressed with the Q100H. 2.3 Kg. mini performance in a 1.8 Kg. package.

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I just ordered a 19A 9-FET "Normal Controller" from Elifebike. I'm hoping it's the same as my original two KU93's from BMSbattery.

I'm thinking this Outrider is a bit small for the Jeep bike, and the Q100H would probably be too, though I'd like to try it. Meanwhile I may have to juggle motors again and move the YOUE back to the Jeep. The Outrider would likely be a better fit on the Nashbar frame since I always used 25% less battery power with that bike. The thing is I stripped it down to the frame when I built my most recent bike and put the frame up for sale. It hasn't sold yet so maybe I'll just build it up again!

-R

Did some more experimentation to find the root cause of the front end shaking violently over 20 mph.

Removed motor/wheel, fenders, Schwalbe Big Apples (28x2.15) tires and rear bag w/ battery, tools, tube, etc. Installed new front wheel and original rear wheel both with 700x40C tires and Nashbar self-sealing tubes. Bike in this configuration weighs just over 35 lbs. Removing the controller, throttle and 12g wiring would bring it down under 34 lbs. Not great but not bad considering the fork is all steel. Compared to the 60 lbs as an E-bike with the BA's the bike sure felt like a lightweight. It was also nice and stable. I only rode a short distance up to about 20 mph but it rode perfectly well no-handed.



I then added the 14 pound rear bag complete with 36V battery, tools, tube, etc.



Again the bike was stable and no-hands was a breeze. Finally I reinstalled the Outrider motor/wheel and swapped out the 36V battery for 12S (+1 lb).



Went out for a ride over the same 31 mile route as yesterday. With the 12S battery and 22A controller (21.5Ap this ride). The little motor of course felt stronger but it's still not impressive. Top speed was a hair over 23 mph Vs 24 mph the other day due to the smaller tires. Speed up the two 8% hills was 14 mph (w/pedaling), a gain of 1 over using the 15A controller and +2 over 10S/21A (actual peak).

At the end of the ride I had averaged 19.1 mph over the 31 mile route, higher than the 18.0 yesterday and the 17.7 mph the day before. I also used more power, 14.6 Wh/mi, than the previous rides. The motor was quite hot at the end of the ride. I could only hold my hand on the cover for about 3 seconds. It isn't surprising since it is a 250W motor. I used exactly 450Wh in 1.6 hours or an average of 281W. Overall I'd judge the Outrider as just fair. It would not be my first choice for a small geared motor, that would be the 8.0 rpm/v YOUE I presently own. It is strong, quick, quiet (when run on KU93), and very serviceable. My second choice would be a MXUS.

Oh yeah and the shake, well there was a hint of it at 20 mph but it wasn't until the upper 20's that it started to get real wobbly when sitting up with no weight on the handlebars and violent when I hit 30 mph. I guess I can live with that since anytime I'm going that fast I'm sure to be holding on. I'm going to leave the smaller tires on since the Big Apples don't add all that much comfort on the road compared to the 40mm tires on this bike. The steering is slower with them and of course there's the shaking with the handlebars unweighted at any speed over 14 mph which gets nasty at 20 mph.


-R

-R[/quote]

I just ordered a 19A 9-FET "Normal Controller" from Elifebike. I'm hoping it's the same as my original two KU93's from BMSbattery.

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I assume you mean the QQ-500-9M. I have used that very same controller on my original MXUS and the Q100H. I'm sure you know, but the harness is made to connect to the kit supplied 3 light, one button throttle. I don't care much for that throttle and don't have room for it anyhow. So I had to add an on/off switch connected to the orange(looks like pink) and red wire connector.
The controller uses the common genaric 63V caps and has a double shunt.
It is a fairly "soft" controller, but on a fresh 12S, there can be some abruptness at start, but as the top charge "burns" off, it smooths out. It's not as powerful as my Infineon 22A, but it doesn't hammer either. Overall, these ELB controllers are the quietest i have used after the sine-waves.
It has a very fast activating Cruise, like 3 to 4 sec.s.
i haven't tried the PAS.
Unlike the KU93, it has a hard LVC of 42V, which I have tested. On my 12S pack, that left cell Voltage between 3.5V and 3.6V. That's a little low and some of my cells had started to stray, but they came back in line with a normal balance charge.
I have recently detuned my GT Idrive for slow speed "boardwalk" cruising(second link in my sig.)and replaced it with the very low-power QQ-250-6M+810.
I then used the QQ-500-9M on the rear Q100 CST 328 on my 2WD Rocky Mountain. But eventually, I felt that the 19 Amps were a little much for the CST and if I had to run a on/off switch, I might as well use the 810 Meter(which is useful on the 2WD anyhow). So I replaced it with the 17A QQ-350-9M+810. I actually went with 2) QQ-350-9M+810's and feel this is the best combo for the twin 328's yet(28 mph top speed, 25 mph on second speed setting.).
Although, I really din't feel much difference between the two ELB 9-FET controllers(I don't use any meters anymore other than Voltmeters).

was thinking more along the lines of the weight of the Big Apple and larger Slimed tube. I did yank the wheel and checked to see if it was still true on my stand. I did replace the 350g Slimed tube with a regular 216g tube. It didn't make a difference. Sitting up and releasing the handlebars the shake begins at around 14 mph and becomes violent very quickly at higher speeds. It could easily cause me to wipe out if I didn't lean forward and grab the bars. The bike is so stable otherwise but now that I think about it I don't believe in the 3+ years of riding this bike I ever tried it no-hands. I do remember always noting that the front fender would tend to shake some when I lifted one hand to drink from the water bottle, so perhaps this isn't a new phenomenon.

I did some reading into what causes this kind of shaking and there seems to be no cut and dried answer. Apparently the idea about a loose or worn headset is incorrect, though I checked it anyway. There is some consensus that it's a function of the frame stiffness, especially the top tube, along with weight distribution (the higher the worse it is) and geometry, especially of the front of the bike.

The bike is no longer made by Kent but there was no geometry info there anyway. I used this website http://www.bicyclecalculator.co.uk/createamap.htm
to model this bike as well as my Gravity bike and Nashbar frame that I do have some geometry info for. What the model showed was a large amount of "trail" for the Jeep bike. With the fork uncompressed I get 92mm which is far more than the Gravity (63mm w/700x38 tires) or the Nashbar (60mm with 700x32 tires). Larger wheels and tires also increase trail. The program indicates the 28x2.15 tires add about 7mm to this bike compared to 700x40's.

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I was a motocycle mechanic for 25 years and almost every Japanese bike from the '70's and '80's would develop "The Shake", always at 40 mph. The standard shop joke was when the Cust. pleaded, "When I take my hands off the bars, the whole front of the bike starts to shake'. "Well, don't take take your hands off the bars"
But seriously, what i found that, what mitigated the phemon., after not over-loading the rear rack, was the type and profile of tire tread and construction. Some tires put down a contact patch that dampened the oscillation better than others.

Concerning the Outrider,
Your review jogged my memory of a couple of comments by Neptronix.
When it first came out, I assumed that that it's performance would be on par the Original MXUS sold by Ampedbikes(I bought mine from Hightecbikes), given that they weighed and looked the same. But after reading nep's comments, I thought that doesn"t sound like my MXUS at all.
He said:

I get my 20mph motor hot on 36v and 19A whenever a hill comes up.
I can run 120% on flat land and get 25mph out of it, sure. But it starts gaining heat too, just not at as bad of a rate.

The MXUS motor would be better to run on 12S because it runs something like 17-18mph on 36v for starters... so the added voltage doesn't kick it's speed up too far.

If you have to run 12S, just keep the amps low. Like 17A or lower..

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and

I started out with 47v / 20A. The motor was actually quite strong; not anything like my rear 8T MAC, but similar to my front MAC ( old 350w version, which is a pound lighter and has a kinda narrower stator ).

I certainly was cruising around the >25mph mark, but the motor got rather hot in a short period of time. The power was nice, but i feel like i was close to saturating it at 940w peak

Okay, so i gradually dialed the power down to 18A/38v ( ~700w peak ) and found that that's about where it is happy. It cruises at about 300w at around 20mph with pedaling input....

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I started out with the MXUS with a Grin 48V Li-on Batt. and I didn't have anything to compare with then, I know now that it is a little brute of a mini motor, able to run all day @ 23 to 24 mph without even getting warm. And this last year, I ran it with that hot Infineon controller and while it wouldn't spin on dry pavement, the slightest bit of gravel, sand or moisture would get it spinning like crazy. I too wish Ebike kit had sent you the 6.6RPM/V version so you would know what I mean.
Frankly, I'm wondering if the Outrider performs as well as it should?

motomech said:

I started out with the MXUS with a Grin 48V Li-on Batt. and I didn't have anything to compare with then, I know now that it is a little brute of a mini motor, able to run all day @ 23 to 24 mph without even getting warm. And this last year, I ran it with that hot Infineon controller and while it wouldn't spin on dry pavement, the slightest bit of gravel or moisture would get it spinning . I too wish Ebike kit had sent you the 6.6RPM/V version so you would know what I mean.
Frankly, I'm wondering if the Outrider performs as well as it should?

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I did own one of the original MXUS motors sold by E-BikeKit;

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10458&start=50#p282948

I got on a kick to reduce my bikes down to just one so I sold the little MXUS (and the Kona Smoke). I came to wish I hadn't so I ordered a new one, and that's when I got the fast-wind version from E-BikeKit. I just recently sold that one too. I'm probably going to move the YOUE motor currently on my Gravity bike back to this bike then make that one rear drive. I picked up a DAPU rear cassette motor (from an Easy Motion bike) here on E-Sphere that I re-laced and have ready to go.


-R

Russell said:

I'm probably going to move the YOUE motor currently on my Gravity bike back to this bike then make that one rear drive.
-R

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And that's what I did. I removed the YOUE front wheel from the bike I just built up and returned it and the 45mm wide fenders back to this bike.




From the moment I engaged the throttle I could feel the difference between this motor and the Outrider. Power comes on quickly and with far less noise on start-up. The YOUE runs very smoothly and quietly with the KU93, much better than with the KU63 clone I was just using with the motor on my other bike (EDIT: after more testing I found it's the late model KU93, the one with the display connector, that is the smoothest with this motor). Top speed for the 8.0 rpm/v YOUE on 12S today was 27 mph compared to 23 with the 7.2 rpm/v Outrider. Hill climbing was 2 mph faster than the Outrider using the same battery/controller.

It's funny the YOUE feels so much better than the Outrider but the stats at the end of the ride were nearly identical. Speed over the 30.9 mile course was 19.2 today vs 19.1 mph for my last ride with the Outrider and wh/mile was exactly the same! The YOUE was just a little warm to the touch at the end of the ride whereas the Outrider was HOT.

IMO this YOUE (with the KU93) is hands-down the best small front motor I've used so far and I've had a slow wind Bafang, a fast Golden Motor Mini (actually a YOUE too), a slow and a fast wind MXUS (both from E-BikeKit), a slow Cute Q100 and the 260 rpm Outrider.

...ok now I have to finish building my latest bike back up

-R