EM3ev, setting the record straight on a few things

I put together two BBS02 powered bikes this past spring for a friend with entirely EM3EV supplied parts and it could not have gone better. I rode one the other day for ~20 miles. With his triangle battery/bag and the BBS02 kit it just doesn't get much better/easier for someone who wants a 29mph mountain bike doesn't want to put the time in to figure out anything else.

I am pleased to see all the other vendors coming online that carry the same level of quality and support on this board. Now who is going to be the first to offer a cheaper-than-lipo-90-something-volt battery that fits in the genesis frame and can sustain 80+amps without cooking? That is the question I am sure many guys on this board want answered.

I think this is a very important statement:

Lectric Cycles said:

The comment I made about insurance is also true. If independent bike shops or online sellers in America order kits from EM3EV, Alibaba, Bafang or anywhere else in China and are not insured as a manufacturer they could find themselves in trouble. Even if our kits were exactly the same as what is sold on sites coming from China (which it is not) our 50+ dealer network and U.S. based warranty is enough to differentiate.

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That would then also apply to not just the Bafang Kits, but a huge amount of different products (or maybe there is something special about the BBS02 or Ebike Kits in particular?). I'm sure the various companies that buy their product from overseas and retail them within the USA, would also be affected. Where can this information be independently verified and on what legal basis is this statement based? I'm not doubting it is true, but it's an important point, it's not enough to just make an important statement, without having some way to corroborate it.


Thanks for clarifying the situation on the new mosfets. At the end of the day, not much gets by Bafang and Mr. Wang, Sunny or the rest of them. It is their best interest to supply a reliable product to everybody, if anybody tells them how to fix an issue, and they see it works, they will take that idea and apply to all. I'm now not too sure about the numbering system I mentioned, it seems that Bafang use different numbering systems, depending on the buyer, so I'm not too sure if my statement about the numbers is true for all or most, or what, but it is definitely true for the kits we supply. However, I am quite sure that for at least the 48V 750W BBS02 (not sure about other models), Bafang will change to IRFB3077 fets from around now and onwards, so you just need to look at the controllers build date.

Lectric Cycles said:

I would like to share one last thing in response. This is an email from a customer I received a few days ago. It highlights the difference in firmware (not software on our kits compared to others. I can assure all readers of this thread that our kit is different than others and that even if available to all not all sellers take advantage of

"I've run into something unusual that perhaps you can shed some light on. My neighbor really liked the bike I got from you and had a SF Bay Area Bafang dealer/installer replicate my bike except his bike uses the C961 display and the factory Nexus IGH rather than the Nuvinci IGH you provided for me. There's one odd thing. My bike has throttle control in every level of pedal assist including assist 0. His bike has no throttle control in assist 0. It requires assist level one or higher before the throttle functions. I brought my bike to the installer and he copied my program into the my neighbor's bike but there is still no throttle control in assist level 0. He changed my C965 display to a C961 display (to enable programming 9 levels of pedal assist) but still, loading my bike's computer program into his bike will not enable any throttle control in assist 0. Do you have any idea why? I've found being able to use throttle with the display on but without any pedal assist to be both convenient and also cuts down battery use when its not needed."

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Bafang changed something in their firmware a few months ago. Previous to this you could enter a speed of greater than >0% (value not important) and a current level of 0%, in the 0 PAS assist setting, then so long as you also selected throttle to be assist level 9 at all times, you would have 100% throttle in all settings, including 0 assist. After the change, this no longer worked. Now, you have to enter 1% speed and 1% current (both need to greater than 0%) and the throttle will work in 0 assist. It is quite a simple change to retain throttle in all assist levels, including 0.

Bafang made me a special version of the firmware a little while back, to get the throttle working in PAS 0, after they made the change (they seem blissfully unaware people do this and want throttle in 0 assist). The throttle did indeed work in 0 assist, but unfortunately they managed to mess up something else, as the controllers with that special firmware seemed to be failing far more often than normal. We went back to the standard Bafang Firmware as we could get around the issue by just changing the software settings as i described above.

A few months back i tried to source the GearSensor, but unfortunately the maker has now decided we don't match their business model. After sending me numerous emails just a few months earlier, when he was reaching out to lots of suppliers. I might see if someone can buy them on our behalf, or maybe just talk with King Meter and see if they are interested in doing something similar. Closing a contact for a certain amount of time when the the gear cable moves, never struck me as a very difficult thing to do. I frankly thought the GearSensor was too expensive for what it does, even at the prices we would have offered them. If people are happy to pay this sort of price, for such a device, well we'd be happy to supply them too.

Anyway, best of luck with everything, no hard feelings.

Paul

I just want to make 1 thing clear. I have no great problem with Lectric Cycles. They obviously do a good job. They are pretty innovative WRT combining parts and adjusting various details to improve their products. I believe their after-sales are pretty good and they have plenty of happy customers. Good luck to them, they have grown from strength to strength in a pretty short time.

My only problem is that if anyone makes statements, and those statements are intended to put your company and product at an advantage over others. You should be able to back those statements up with facts.

The facts are straight and soon all will be revealed.

tomjasz said:

Like the fact free 5 times harder steel gibberish. I had fair luck with them. More than a few unanswered emails regarding using their kit with the gearsensor in the testing days here. But the gibberish continues with the shaft steel specifications. Any shaft 5 times harder than that produced by California eBikes, would be brittle and actually off the chart as far as the hardness scale goes. ( CA eBikes responded with specs and remain an open source supplier) It was obvious that Chris, in the video, was aiming at one vendor. The very vendor who left the kits open source and open to direct copies. Sad sort of marketing.

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+1

Many lurkers in the forum might be wondering what has got everyone in up in arms over the marketing tactics of certain vendors. Even more so when everyone is selling one specific model from one specific manufacturer. Which makes it more or less a commodity item. Although clearly Bafang enhances the product over time introducing some confusion over the specific iterations.

The online Ebike community, in particular Endless Sphere members, have made it clear they want to support vendors that are honest, transparent, and operate with integrity. And many vendors have embraced that ethos. As a result, any short-term differences in the product are the collective work of the vendor community and Bafang to improve the product. Better more stable products means everyone wins.

So the idea of a vendor claiming their standard product has a "secret sauce" from the manufacturer cuts against that community ethos. Especially when the back-story is hidden from the community. By definition, there is a difference between a 'claim' and a 'statement'. And the Endless Sphere community has made it clear it is a place for transparent statements and not claims.

Remember this claim from early May? "In fact the quality, machined tolerances and fit and finish are much better than what California e-bikes offers." http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=68110&p=1042542#p1042542

No statement to support that claim. Just *crickets*...

Recently we've heard the claim that the steel is "5x harder" in a competing product. Will there be any statements published to support that claim? Time will tell... or not.

The elephant in the room... Product Liability Insurance.
I work in the Insurance industry although not for a carrier or broker. And as everyone knows, the devil is in the details. Anyone who has filed an Auto or Home claim knows that for sure. It means absolutely nothing to say one "is insured" or "has insurance".

So if a business is going to take the peculiar step of using liability insurance as a product feature, then a customer should probably ask what that means exactly and have a statement to support that claim. It's very common for bike lock manufacturers to do this and the printed statement with terms and conditions is inside the box.

As I've mentioned in a previous post, "And the great thing about an expanding market is that as the pie grows, so does the room for many great hard working vendors." I'm happy to report that an Ebike shop opened last week 7 blocks from my house selling bikes converted with Bafang mid-drives. I'm going down to the shop today to say hi and see how we can work together and collaborate.

If the Endless Sphere community is about making honest and transparent statements, then it's not unreasonable to hold vendors to that standard.

Many thanks to all for the support on Endless Sphere.

Do any of you sell the 36 V 250 W BBS02, which was made to compete with Bosch, Yamaha and Impulse which all have similar performance? 15 A PAS with 25 A throttle boost (while pedaling only).

This is the video that i have a problem with:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBe_OLUBuCY

By all means vendors should talk up their advantages and frankly Lectric Cycles do put together a nice combination of parts to combine with the BBS02. They seem like a good bunch, are pretty knowledgeable, they back up their product and charge a price people are willing to pay. However, I do not think it is acceptable to make false claims, or talk too much BS, and frankly companies lose credibility with the people that have some knowledge of such products, if they do. As I stated before, this is not an attack against Lectric Cycles. Chris in the video can certainly talk the talk and seems like a nice guy, but I am done letting things ride. If i see BS and it is unfairly putting my product down, I'll call it.

Maybe I'm a bit gullible and old fashioned, but I think understating and over delivering is the way I'd rather do things. Talk in facts that can be backed up with figures, figures that really mean something. Let happy customers do most of the talking and let a business grow organically.

Thanks everyone for your kind words.

Interesting video. I watch a little bit of it. Nice that they have a machine shop across the way. I get the impression they were embellishing a bit which is not usual for a marketing promo, but there were a few rather "curious" statements that were probably incorrect assumptions.

For example the hardness of the shaft. Rockwell 48 on a C scale is typical of a 4140 grade in an annealed condition. Its tough at that but with tempering can go as high as Rc55C. It was said to be 7 times harder; at best its about 40% harder then even the softest steel which due to the alloy would cost more then a 4140 grade. It would machine a little easier.

I looked at them as potential supplier for a BBS02 and they're only about an 80 minute drive for me, but frankly the system would have cost about 40% more.

Keep in mind this is America. Look at the whacky things going on in DC. Or for that matter look at the whacky things China is doing to protect their stock market. Its all about promoting illusion over reality.

tahustvedt said:

Do any of you sell the 36 V 250 W BBS02, which was made to compete with Bosch, Yamaha and Impulse which all have similar performance? 15 A PAS with 25 A throttle boost (while pedaling only).

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Isn't it a matter of making changes in the controller program?

Triketech said:

Its all about promoting illusion over reality.

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Eggs Ackley!

tomjasz said:

tahustvedt said:

Do any of you sell the 36 V 250 W BBS02, which was made to compete with Bosch, Yamaha and Impulse which all have similar performance? 15 A PAS with 25 A throttle boost (while pedaling only).

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Isn't it a matter of making changes in the controller program?

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Maybe, but it's a real advantage if the label on the motor says 250W instead of 500/750W. That's the case with the motors sold in Finland I believe.

opperpanter said:

tomjasz said:

tahustvedt said:

Do any of you sell the 36 V 250 W BBS02, which was made to compete with Bosch, Yamaha and Impulse which all have similar performance? 15 A PAS with 25 A throttle boost (while pedaling only).

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Isn't it a matter of making changes in the controller program?

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Maybe, but it's a real advantage if the label on the motor says 250W instead of 500/750W. That's the case with the motors sold in Finland I believe.

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Yup. Mine says BBS02 36V250W. It's also is engraved with "25 AMP 25 km/h".

Does anyone really believe a US company has better relationships with Bafang than the fellow a few hours away from the factory, with international distribution, and able to ring up and visit at will?

PT Barnum lives.

tomjasz said:

Does anyone really believe a US company has better relationships with Bafang than the fellow a few hours away from the factory, with international distribution, and able to ring up and visit at will?

PT Barnum lives.

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Money talks, so it really depends on who is buttering their bread the most. I would 't say distance is much of a contributing factor these days.

Ade said:

tomjasz said:

Does anyone really believe a US company has better relationships with Bafang than the fellow a few hours away from the factory, with international distribution, and able to ring up and visit at will?

PT Barnum lives.

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Money talks, so it really depends on who is buttering their bread the most. I would 't say distance is much of a contributing factor these days.

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Seriously? Being able to communicate at the home base and native language is a huge advantage, at least it was in the world of agriculture. But that said, I have a motor from each of the companies here. Both are great.

Ade said:

Money talks, so it really depends on who is buttering their bread the most. I would 't say distance is much of a contributing factor these days.

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We get on pretty well with 8Fun. Whenever we visit, the owner Mr. Wang and his second in command, Sunny are always very friendly, helpful and interested to hear what we think. EM3ev have been doing business in 1 form or another in China for maybe 5 years, they know me and my wife. EM3ev might not be huge, but we do buy in reasonable quantities and do not mess them around. Bafang did build our controllers with the IRFB3077 fets for us, after all. If the new fets do improve the reliability as i expect they will, they'll likely be even more open to my suggestions. As i said, 8Fun almost immediately moved to the same fets we supplied to them free issue, for all future production. We longer need to supply the fets to 8Fun, as they are now sourcing their own.

We could buy Bafang parts a little cheaper than we do if we were to deal with 1 of these Agents that seem to be able to sell for less than the Factory, but frankly I'd rather pay a bit more and have that link to the factory and get support directly from them. I do not personally consider the BBS02 kit a commodity product. We have spent a lot of time and money supporting the BBS02 since we supplied them and have had very little back from 8Fun, as the faulty parts need to get back to them first. The 750W BBS02 is not an easy product to supply and it is not the sort of product you can sell with very low profit, not if you have any intention of providing a genuine warranty.

tahustvedt said:

opperpanter said:

tomjasz said:

Isn't it a matter of making changes in the controller program?

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Maybe, but it's a real advantage if the label on the motor says 250W instead of 500/750W. That's the case with the motors sold in Finland I believe.

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Yup. Mine says BBS02 36V250W. It's also is engraved with "25 AMP 25 km/h".

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I am sure it is basically a 36V 500W BBS02 underneath (with maybe a different motor winding). if 8Fun adjusted the speed and programming at the customers request, then it is perfectly correct for the kit to state what it does, it is not lying. I think we could get something similar if we requested it.

cell_man said:

A few months back i tried to source the GearSensor, but unfortunately the maker has now decided we don't match their business model. After sending me numerous emails just a few months earlier, when he was reaching out to lots of suppliers. I might see if someone can buy them on our behalf, or maybe just talk with King Meter and see if they are interested in doing something similar. Closing a contact for a certain amount of time when the the gear cable moves, never struck me as a very difficult thing to do. I frankly thought the GearSensor was too expensive for what it does, even at the prices we would have offered them. If people are happy to pay this sort of price, for such a device, well we'd be happy to supply them too.
Paul

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I had the same experience with them. Unbelievable attitude for a company trying to promote a product worldwide and get people to buy it.

cell_man said:

I am sure it is basically a 36V 500W BBS02 underneath (with maybe a different motor winding). if 8Fun adjusted the speed and programming at the customers request, then it is perfectly correct for the kit to state what it does, it is not lying. I think we could get something similar if we requested it.

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I think so too. Aren't all BBS02 the same motor and windings? The 48 V motors run at an RPM that corresponds to the voltage increase over 36 V.

tahustvedt said:

cell_man said:

I am sure it is basically a 36V 500W BBS02 underneath (with maybe a different motor winding). if 8Fun adjusted the speed and programming at the customers request, then it is perfectly correct for the kit to state what it does, it is not lying. I think we could get something similar if we requested it.

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I think so too. Aren't all BBS02 the same motor and windings? The 48 V motors run at an RPM that corresponds to the voltage increase over 36 V.

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Bafang adjust the speed of the motor according to the supply voltage and rated power output, they are not all the same, but all BBS02 use the same stator and rotor (so far as i know). My guess is that they might have made the 250W BBS02, 25A Kit with a slower wound motor and adjusted the controller settings, or maybe they didn't bother to change the speed of the motor, and only changed the software settings. Frankly I'm really not too sure, just speculating. The odd customer has complained the 250W BBS01 is too slow (pedal cadence, not the speed on the road), but nobody ever says that about the higher power versions.

All 25A BBS02 controllers share most of the same main parts, no matter if 36 or 48V, but are some some small component changes to differentiate the 36/48V. i do not believe the differences between 36 and 48V controllers is only software or firmware.

eMax said:

cell_man said:

A few months back i tried to source the GearSensor, but unfortunately the maker has now decided we don't match their business model. After sending me numerous emails just a few months earlier, when he was reaching out to lots of suppliers. I might see if someone can buy them on our behalf, or maybe just talk with King Meter and see if they are interested in doing something similar. Closing a contact for a certain amount of time when the the gear cable moves, never struck me as a very difficult thing to do. I frankly thought the GearSensor was too expensive for what it does, even at the prices we would have offered them. If people are happy to pay this sort of price, for such a device, well we'd be happy to supply them too.
Paul

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I had the same experience with them. Unbelievable attitude for a company trying to promote a product worldwide and get people to buy it.

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IMO extremely over priced as an add on.
Chase back to the thread where we tested the versions GS supplied to me. We all came away feeling that a light tap on the brake lever was just as easy. We all also had problems, which initially Gearsensor blamed on us tweaking the software. When in fact we never did anything that would mess with the sensor. We all also had problem with moisture. Lectric claims that they don't have that problem and located theirs in a spot that would be subject to moisture. Karl of electric fat bikes wrote saying after a few miles he had no problem. I have a final release, like those Lectric is using and so far no problem, but it's really not that exciting of a solution IMO and IME. Mine is also not subjected to moisture or rain. I suggested Radim of GS contact Paul but apparently LeGrand had already made headway. Lectric provided me a decent kit. I had thought, early in my experience, that having USA support would be an improvement over waiting a few days for Paul. In retrospect I think I made a $150 donation. I have stellar experiences with EM3ev, I have learned patience. And now that EM3ev has a stateside service and warranty center it's a no brainer for me. Again I firmly believe that EM3ev has the best interests of BBS0x users in mind. That's before considering the superior batteries they provide. Lectric configures bikes on my favored frames, flat foot crank forward, but I see no advantage now that California eBikes is there to service and support Paul. Both Paul and CA eBikes continue to operate with full support, best prices, leading edge developments, and just being great human beings. I'm standing pat with them. BTW they both respond, in most cases, just as quickly. It was my impatience and naivete that was the problem.

cell_man said:

All 25A BBS02 controllers share most of the same main parts, no matter if 36 or 48V, but are some some small component changes to differentiate the 36/48V. i do not believe the differences between 36 and 48V controllers is only software or firmware.

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Will the BBS01 controllers use upgraded FET's?

tomjasz said:

Chase back to the thread where we tested the versions GS supplied to me. We all came away feeling that a light tap on the brake lever was just as easy. We all also had problems, which initially Gearsensor blamed on us tweaking the software. When in fact we never did anything that would mess with the sensor. We all also had problem with moisture. Lectric claims that they don't have that problem and located theirs in a spot that would be subject to moisture.

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I've kind of wondered about how well a gear sensor would work given the hostile environment it lives in, the sensitivity to dirt/moisture, and the inviting lack of intrusion protection. I've built sensors to detect motion of a narrow solder paste slurry that used a Keyance reflecting photodetector with sensitivty set to switch on contrast level change. I suspect that same principle could be used on a cable. The Keyance would require a 10-48V power source, something likely available on an E-Bike.

Not intended to hijack the thread, just a point about gear sensors to ponder.

tomjasz said:

cell_man said:

All 25A BBS02 controllers share most of the same main parts, no matter if 36 or 48V, but are some some small component changes to differentiate the 36/48V. i do not believe the differences between 36 and 48V controllers is only software or firmware.

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Will the BBS01 controllers use upgraded FET's?

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I suspect no they, will only use the higher grade fets in the 25A kits and maybe just the 48V 750W. The controllers in the lower power kits are generally pretty reliable, the existing fets are good enough IMO, for those. Bafang have only just started to implement these new fets, so it is a bit early to say what what exactly they will do. Although we offer other options, the majority of our sales are the 750W BBS02.

cell_man said:

tahustvedt said:

cell_man said:

I am sure it is basically a 36V 500W BBS02 underneath (with maybe a different motor winding). if 8Fun adjusted the speed and programming at the customers request, then it is perfectly correct for the kit to state what it does, it is not lying. I think we could get something similar if we requested it.

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I think so too. Aren't all BBS02 the same motor and windings? The 48 V motors run at an RPM that corresponds to the voltage increase over 36 V.

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Bafang adjust the speed of the motor according to the supply voltage and rated power output, they are not all the same, but all BBS02 use the same stator and rotor (so far as i know). My guess is that they might have made the 250W BBS02, 25A Kit with a slower wound motor and adjusted the controller settings, or maybe they didn't bother to change the speed of the motor, and only changed the software settings. Frankly I'm really not too sure, just speculating. The odd customer has complained the 250W BBS01 is too slow (pedal cadence, not the speed on the road), but nobody ever says that about the higher power versions.

All 25A BBS02 controllers share most of the same main parts, no matter if 36 or 48V, but are some some small component changes to differentiate the 36/48V. i do not believe the differences between 36 and 48V controllers is only software or firmware.

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I seriously doubt they use different windings for the different BBS02 stators. It would increase cost a lot for Bafang. The 36 V motor already spins slower than the 48 V motor, probably because of the lower voltage. Unless Bafang confirms that they actually use different windings on the different BBS02 motors then it's pretty safe to assume they use the same windings for all BBS02 motors. They probably have ready would stators with the same number of windings.