The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by voicecoils » Oct 20 2015 5:23am

Lurkin wrote: Flange spoke hole diameter: ~3mm
Eyelet hole diameter:~3.3mm

Pretty hard to measure these accurately because the calliper doesn't neatly go into the hole. Will try a bit harder when I get home, just a bit hard at work.

Unsure on spoke lace pattern. Spoke calculations so far have been based on 1X, given the summary on Grin's website suggests more crosses are probably not required. Open to suggestion on this.
The spoke holes do not appear to be angled.
The spoke holes are eyeleted
The depth is decent, pretty hard to tell exactly, will check later tonight.
Ok, so you have reasonably large holes drilled into your hub flange (enough to fit 11 or 12g) and reasonably small holes in your rim (only big enough for ~14g). Your eyeleted rim holes will make wheel building nice but give less tolerance for poor spoke/nipple alignment.

I think your rim hole diameters are wrong because even 14 gauge spokes will usually have ~4mm diameter nipple bodies. Aside from that my recommendations are:

* 1 cross lace (provided the rim is 24" or larger, I don't thing you've stated this yet?)
* 13/14 gauge butted spoke (Sapim Strong or DT Alpine I)

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Lurkin » Oct 21 2015 4:42am

I've tried to measure it more accurately. The rim definitely has bigger eyelets than first measured.

Rim = ~4mm eyelet holes
Hub flange = ~3mm drilled holes

The rim is 26"
Is there much strength gained from more lace than 1x?

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by voicecoils » Oct 21 2015 5:12am

No, 1 cross is plenty with a large diameter hub. 2 or more cross would likely cause more problems than provide benefit.

I'm assuming your hub is 200mm in diameter or larger. If so, than the bracing angles of 1 cross with that rim and hub will be similar to 3 cross in a normal bike wheel.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by OCD » Oct 21 2015 8:41am

The newer Golden Motor MP5 wheels have a modified radial type spoking pattern to reduce the angle where the spokes enter the rim. The spokes look to have a similar angle to a regular bicycle wheel but they do not cross at all. I'm not crazy about the look, but is this pattern considered to be as strong as 1x lacing?


Image
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by voicecoils » Oct 21 2015 3:22pm

OCD wrote:The newer Golden Motor MP5 wheels have a modified radial type spoking pattern to reduce the angle where the spokes enter the rim. The spokes look to have a similar angle to a regular bicycle wheel but they do not cross at all. I'm not crazy about the look, but is this pattern considered to be as strong as 1x lacing?
That's called 'spoke pairing' or 'paired holes' when pairs of spokes sit closer together to each other instead of all having equidistant spacing.

Yes, they can be as strong as 1, 2 or 3 cross.

Magic Pie has narrow flange spacing which is a downside but at least they gave paired spoke holes.
The Tidalforce Wavecrest bikes were another example, having paired spokes front and rear.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by cal3thousand » Oct 21 2015 4:22pm

To see if the paired spokes will be as strong as a crossed wheel, you have to look at the spoke exit angles.

From what I see in the images posted, the angles on the crossed (1X) wheel are better (more tangential) than the paired non-crossing design. Crossing spokes also gives more lateral stiffness than without.

So while the new design approaches the strength of a crossed wheel, I don't feel that it is superior. I would say it is between a radial lace and a 1X lace.
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Chalo » Oct 21 2015 4:51pm

The point with a wheel is not to make the spoke more tangential to the hub, but to have an effective lever arm radius at which the spoke is tangent. Once an adequate lever arm is established, other factors such as spoke insertion angle must also be accommodated.

When lacing an old fashioned rear hub with a 41mm flange diameter, of course more tangential lacing is better-- because the longest lever you have available is only about 20mm.

With a large diameter hub motor, the radius at the spoke tangent (even with cross-one lacing) is much bigger than that, so fractional-cross lacing makes sense, especially when it allows more reasonable insertion angles.

Crossed/interlaced spoking doesn't provide better lateral bracing than non-crossed spoking unless the uncrossed spokes are laced all inside the flange (reducing bracing angle). If the spokes are laced all outside the flange, then the lateral bracing of the wheel is slightly improved compared to traditional alternating lacing.
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by justin_le » Oct 21 2015 8:11pm

+1 a million times over to everything that Chalo just said.

Crossing spokes does not make your wheel "strong" or or add anything in terms of stiffness to the wheel. For the best lateral strength, you can have all the spokes laced outside the flange (ie. heads on the inside) to increase the triangulation, and only cross the spoke as necessary to get an adequate lever arm effect for transmitting the motor torque to the rim. In almost all cases with hub motors, that means single cross on evenly spaced flange holes, and no cross for paired spoke holes that have an intrinsic offset in them.
Last edited by justin_le on Oct 21 2015 10:13pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Lurkin » Oct 21 2015 8:59pm

I was thinking of using standard DT Swiss Champion PG Silver Spokes as they are cost effective, readily available and reasonably priced. DT also recommend them (in addition to the earlier recommendations) for ebike applications. They are made from X5 Stainless Steel, 14 gauge (2mm), which can be thread rolled by a Hozan C700 spoke threader. The plan was to buy both and custom cut/thread them myself.

However, are they too weak?
Does it matter that the spoke bend will be 2mm, whereas the hub motor spoke flange holes are 3mm? (I thought once the tension is on them, there will just be a little redundant gap is all).
How do you know if you need washers in between the spoke head and the hub motor flange? Is this practise only adopted when there is a large gap after the bend and a thinner hub motor spoke flange?

The bike is to be used for commuter purposes on relatively flat ground (not off roading, touring, jumps or other exciting things). Does it really need the additional strength of the multiple butted spokes? at ~AUD30 for a set of these vs ~AUD100+ for the suggested spokes, I can buy a set of spokes and the Hozan tool for the same price?

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by justin_le » Oct 21 2015 10:27pm

Lurkin wrote: I can buy a set of spokes and the Hozan tool for the same price?
The Hozan tool even cheap as it is is of pretty questionable value.
How do you know if you need washers in between the spoke head and the hub motor flange? Is this practise only adopted when there is a large gap after the bend and a thinner hub motor spoke flange?


If you're using 14g straight spokes in a hub flange that's drilled out to 3mm, then almost for sure you'll need washers under the spoke head even if the flange is thick. The reason is that the spoke head will sit much deeper into the hole than a 13g or 12g head would in the same circumstances, and as a result there will still be a gap after the bend. But with the washers to hold the head back, straight 14g should be perfectly fine for you. Single butted certainly facilitates bridging hub flanges drilled for oversized spokes with rims drilled out for standard spokes, but it's not usually required for strength in average commuter applications.
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 22 2015 9:46am

The hozan spoke tool is best to make a couple custom size spokes for repair. Cutting sets of spokes would push it to it's cutting heads limit. I suggest giving JRHolmes a call with your spoke length.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by markz » Oct 25 2015 2:48am

I got a quick question on this. Primarily the angle of the nipple to the rim. I have the MXUS 3000W V2, on a ebikes.ca Crystalyte 26" Downhill rim with ebikes.ca Butted 13/14 black spokes cut to 160mm. I used washers on my as my holes on the flange were huge. My angle was 75.5 degrees, as per spoke calculator.

I am going to change up my rim, to either a 17" or 18" moto rim, 1.60 (40mm) wide rim.

So with moto rims the nipple hole is angled right, so more of an angle can be achieved? as apposed to bicycle rim, where the hole is just cut straight through. What kind of angles are recommended, or does it depend on the holes in the rim. Conversely or whatever, same question on the bicycle rim.

Now, Looking at a generic rim ERD value for a 17" and 18" rim

Spokes around 80mm long (18” Rim) 59.5 degrees, 78mm long (17”) 58 degrees both are 1 cross
2 cross is 116mm (18”) 50 degrees, 113mm (17” Rim) 48.5 degrees
3 cross is 155mm (18”) 49.7 degrees, 153mm (17”) 48.5 degrees

Another question, is it better to have more of an angle to the rim or less for strength. You guys talk about tangent, is that the angle? Sheldon Brown talks about large hubs in small diameter rims, needing 1 or 2 cross.

So if my spokes were cut to 160mm, and I go 3 cross (on same flange) on 18" I am 5mm off. I am trying not to cut/ream my spokes. However maybe I could find any multitude of spoke lengths online for sale, this gives me options.


Side note on a possible error in the Spoke Calculator, under Nominal Diameter under Custom Rim, theres two 16" one is a 349 value which I think is 17".

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by markz » Oct 25 2015 10:47pm

FYI - I called around the local bike shops and got a kind lady saying Mountain Equipment Co-Op has a manual spoke machine, and is charged their labor rate, which is $60/hour. Atleast here anyway. I've seen MEC's in Edmonton, Vancouver and Victoria, so I assume they are in major cities all across Canada. I dont know about the USA.

The closest I could find for spokes at the used bike store, was 120mm, on a childs bike rim, and some 120mm loose in some Lays plastic chip tube. So I'm just going to MEC and getting my 13/14ga 160mm's cut to length.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Chalo » Oct 26 2015 12:05am

markz wrote:Side note on a possible error in the Spoke Calculator, under Nominal Diameter under Custom Rim, theres two 16" one is a 349 value which I think is 17".
That's not an error. 16" x decimal value is the ISO 305 size, common among children's bikes, trailers, and recumbent front wheels. ISO 349 is nominal 16" x 1-1/8" or 1-3/8", which is more common among folding bikes. I've heard it called 17" when used on Moulton bikes.
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by markz » Oct 26 2015 12:43am

Cool, i learned something new.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Chalo » Oct 27 2015 5:50am

While building a new wheelset for myself tonight, I got my ass handed to me in a big way. Thought I'd share the experience for the benefit of others.

I was lacing a pair of 48 hole Haro Megahubs ('90s big axle BMX hubs) to some 29" Weinmann pedicab rims, using lovely new old stock DT 15/16ga butted spokes. Both rims had misaligned joints, which I couldn't detect before adding tension to them. I was prepared for that situation, but not for the huge waste of time that followed.

The hubs had normal-looking spoke holes, so I didn't bother measuring them. Thing is, they were probably intended for use with up to 12ga spokes, so the holes were generous. And when you tighten up a rim with a bad joint, you get some very tight spokes along with some rather loose ones. So on the first wheel, I got it pretty tight before things went non-linear (tightening spokes did not result in correction to the wheel's shape).

After a bit of struggling with this issue, the tightest spoke pulled through the hub hole with a sound like it had broken. After diagnosing the problem, I replaced the spoke (whose elbow had been mostly straightened) and added a washer to prevent the new spoke from also pulling through. On inspecting the hub flanges, I discovered several other spoke heads that had begun burrowing their way through the flange. I set the wheel aside, resolving to relace it with a new rim and washers on all the spokes.

I tried again with the other hub. This time, I placed washers on all the spokes in advance. This rim had a joint every bit as bad as the first one, if not more. It got tight enough and pretty close to true and round before it stopped responding appropriately to further attempts to true it. The next thing I knew, one of the spokes next to the joint had gotten so tight that it was elongating without pulling the rim into line. I decided to replace that one ultra-tight spoke with a thicker one, to keep it from stretching so much. I used a 14/15ga spoke.

Well... 14ga nipples have the same outside dimensions as 15ga nipples, which is convenient. But it means that they have thinner walls, so they're a little more fragile when wrenched on viciously. It did not take long, nor bring the wheel to a true condition, before the nipple rounded off on the tight spoke. Grrr.

I decided to remove the 14/15ga spoke and try a straight 14ga spoke with lots of moly lubricant on the threads and the nipple seat. Again, before the wheel came all the way true, the nipple rounded off. The replacement nipple did too. At this point, I'm about four hours into the wheel lacing venture, with no acceptable results to show for it.

I decided to pack it in for the night and try again later with another pair of rims.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Punx0r » Oct 27 2015 8:08am

Clearly you should have used 12ga spokes :wink:

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by GmagNeato » Dec 09 2015 12:51am

Hello all. I am new to the forum and this is my first post here, although I have been lurking and reading for quite some time and have learned a ton of valuable information from so many ES members. I would first like to say thank you all very much for you're contributions. You have inspired me and given me confidence to dive into this whole ebike thing headfirst (or should I say head over heels? :)) Without this forum, I'm not sure that would have happened.

Here is where I'm at with my first build.

I have a 26" hardtail mountain bike which I am converting to a rear hub ebike.

I am custom building my battery out of salvaged 18650 cells. The pack is almost complete and will be located inside my frames triangle in a pre-made bag. The battery pack is a 14s7p configuration, which will give me 52v and approximately 20ah (panasonic NCR-B cells).

The motor is a leafbike 1500w - 13 x 5T, which I ordered as a kit, and just received from leafbike. I figure it will get me started and I will upgrade various components as necessary or as I'm able to do so. First upgrade will most likely be a Lyen 12 or 18 FET controller. The kit came with a 12 FET 40A max controller, which should suffice me for a while (mostly commuting on road with some mild hills). But I'm sure my need for speed will get the better of me soon enough.

So here is my problem. I wanted to use 2.5" tires (Maxxis Hookworms) on the wheel. So I requested the appropriate wheel for this and they sent me the wrong one! The motor is laced to a 28" (or 700c) wheel which will definitely not fit in my bike. So now it looks like I'll get to do my first hub lacing, much sooner than I anticipated!

Since I will have to change the wheel anyway, I think I would like to go with a moped type rim and tire, and was hoping someone could help me determine which size wheel/tire I should go with, and based on that and the size of my motor, which spokes (length?) I would need to get.

Thanks in advance to anyone who could offer any help.

G
1st build: (commuter conversion) Novara HT / DIY 15s7p Panasonic NCRB's (harvested from used laptop packs) / 40a generic Chinese controller / 1500w 5T Leaf motor (STOCK)

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by markz » Dec 09 2015 2:33am

For the 1500W, your best bet is just a downhill rim, ebikes.ca sell them, I have their Crystalyte Downhill rim, it was like $50.
I did my first lacing job on my first ebike motor, the MXUS 3000W V2 motor, it turned out excellent. I was worried like you probably are about lacing the wheel, but mine like I said, perfect! It took quite a long time, as I like to procrastinate. I had to relace it 2 or 3 times because I did not get the direction of the nipple on the flange right. But it turned out to be true, until i crashed hard on it and popped the wheel out of alignment, wobble. Be ultra-careful to get the right size spokes. You need the information and specifications from the rim and the motor and you will be good to go. Take your time and use youtube, lots of videos on there.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by GmagNeato » Dec 09 2015 2:48am

markz, thanks so much for the quick response! Yes I am a little nervous about the first lacing, but hopefully it will turn out as yours did, minus the crash! :? I will check out ebike.ca for a suitable rim, and definitely will be careful abou the spokes. Had I known I'd be doing this, I most likely would have just gone with a bare hub instead of the kit and got a MXUS as well! Maybe on my next build :) I really appreciate your help.

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1st build: (commuter conversion) Novara HT / DIY 15s7p Panasonic NCRB's (harvested from used laptop packs) / 40a generic Chinese controller / 1500w 5T Leaf motor (STOCK)

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by spinningmagnets » Dec 09 2015 9:33am

I think I would like to go with a moped type rim and tire, and was hoping someone could help me determine which size wheel/tire I should go with, and based on that and the size of my motor
I just received a 19-inch Holmes MMP moped rim (1.6-inch wide). With a Heidenau 2-1/4 X 19 tire, the tire's outer diameter is almost precisely 24-inches. I have no experience with 21-inch moped rims and tires, but the 21-inch moped family should be close to a bicycle 26-inch.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by GmagNeato » Dec 09 2015 12:42pm

Thanks amberwolf, I've actually read the first thread already - it's what turned me onto moped rims and tires! :D
I will check out some of the other threads - thanks for sending that my way.

Spinningmagnets, where could I get such a rim and tire combo? Also, is 2 1/4 the inflated width of the tire? I don't think it would be bad for me to go a little smaller than 26", but I'm trying to judge whether it would fit in my frame width wise. From what I've seen 21" moped tires are rather difficult to source. Thanks for the response!!

EDIT:
Spinningmagnets - I found the rims, thanks :) Still interested in the inflated width with tire. Also, the spokes on my hub are 12 gauge. If I purchase 12 gauge spokes from Holmes would they work (correct length of course) without washers?
1st build: (commuter conversion) Novara HT / DIY 15s7p Panasonic NCRB's (harvested from used laptop packs) / 40a generic Chinese controller / 1500w 5T Leaf motor (STOCK)

2nd build: EEB frame / 20s4p of 7200mah Turnigy Hard Case Packs, 74v nominal, 28.8ah, 2131wh / Adaptto Max-E (9G4 firmware currently) + BMS + 70a Charge Coil onboard / QS 205 V3 Extra 5T

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by spinningmagnets » Dec 09 2015 3:23pm

Holmes Hobbies orders their moped rims with 10-ga holes, and they special-order nipples with a 10-ga body and drilled/threaded for 12-ga spokes. The spokes are stock 12-ga. I'll measure the tire and post a pic soon. For a 2-1/4 tire, I could've used a 1.4-inch rim, or a heavy-duty bicycle rim, but...I have an interest in a 3-inch tire, and I'll be experimenting with those soon.

I have seen pictures of experienced wheel-builders using washers, but I have no experience with them. Also, the good stuff is expensive, but it will last a very long time. Except the tires, moped tires are equal to, or cheaper than mid-fat bicycle tires...and much more robust. I'm currently still using bicycle stuff on the front.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by GmagNeato » Dec 09 2015 5:23pm

Got it, thanks for the details. So their spokes/nipples should work out of the box then. Although Holmes option is pretty pricey, I really like the idea of such a robust wheel and tire combo back there. The width of the space between my seat stays and rear fork is 3". I'm thinking the max I could go width wise on the rear tire would be 2.5" - leaving .25" in either side. This is kinda tight but I think it would work. This is why I was wondering the inflated width of the tire you choose.

If the width would work, then the only thing left for me to figure out would be the exact length of spoke I would need. Hopefully the spoke calculator on ebike.ca will help with this.
1st build: (commuter conversion) Novara HT / DIY 15s7p Panasonic NCRB's (harvested from used laptop packs) / 40a generic Chinese controller / 1500w 5T Leaf motor (STOCK)

2nd build: EEB frame / 20s4p of 7200mah Turnigy Hard Case Packs, 74v nominal, 28.8ah, 2131wh / Adaptto Max-E (9G4 firmware currently) + BMS + 70a Charge Coil onboard / QS 205 V3 Extra 5T

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by spinningmagnets » Dec 09 2015 6:34pm

2-1/4 is the narrowest tire I would put on this 1.6-inch wide rim, the sidewalls are fairly straight, almost no bulge. I just cut out a square on a section from the middle of a piece of cardboard, and trimmed it until it fit over the tire, then measured the cardboard cutout. At the widest point it's an actual 2-1/4 inch. This rim should easily seat a tire up to 3-inches (depending on frame chainstay-width).

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