Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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justin_le   10 MW

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CA3 Prelim13, Proportional Regen

Post by justin_le » Nov 26 2015 3:30am

OK, the latest firmware update is available here:
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/CA3-0p13.zip

This has 2 significant changes from the P12 firmware released earlier in the month.
a) The throttle is now immediately functional the moment that the CA is turned on, even while the splash screen is being displayed. Previously the CA wasn't really operational until after the splash screen had finished showing, but now everything (throttle, PAS, ebrakes etc) work the moment power is applied.
b) Proportional Regen! For anyone who has either a Grinfineon or a Phaserunner controller, you can now take advantage of the proportional regen feature in the 0.0V - 0.8V throttle region by using the throttle + ebrakes in order to modulate the brake intensity. Use the "Brake Out" voltage to set the baseline regen you have when the ebrake levers are pressed (typically between 0.4 to 0.6 volts), and then as you depress the throttle this voltage will decrease down to 0.0V to give maximum regen. That lets you vary the braking force while riding using the existing hardware on your bike, without the elusive proportional output brake lever.

If you do release the ebrake when you still have the throttle down, then you'll get a brief throttle fault on the CA3 in order to prevent an inadvertent burst of power when the brake lever is let go. After you either release and re-apply the throttle or just wait a second, then this fault will clear and the bike will power as normal.

We've made a short video which summarizes some of the main feature improvements since the P6 release here


As always, we're keen for people to try this latest release out and give any feedback. And as before, if you flash the CA3 with the "No_Eeprom" version of the .hex file then all of your settings and statistics will be left alone and will stay the same as before, it's just pure firmware update.
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
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MrDude_1   100 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by MrDude_1 » Dec 03 2015 10:33pm

I just updated to the new code successfully... I cant use regen (the chain tensioner doesnt like running power backwards) but the instant-on throttle is great.
I found the Phaserunner option to start when moving, so now if I have the glitch (it happens once in awhile still) I dont have to stop to restart, I just turn the bike on/off with the thumb switch, and the CA is instantly letting me put a throttle signal back in.
THANKS!

I do have one question though.. what size is the power out plug on the Cycle Analyst? the one intended for running lights?
I have a bluetooth adapter I use for the serial data, and I want to run the power off of that plug. (I have a DC-DC adapter to drop it to 5v)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Joe90 » Dec 07 2015 8:40am

Hi

What is the max input voltage on the cycle analyst from the voltage drop trough the shunt ?

I have shunt of .001 Ohms and I plan to read 200A peak and maybe 50 continous

I fear to overload the input of the cycle analyst.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by danielrlee » Dec 14 2015 9:36am

Justin. Just when I think my current build is complete, you keep coming up with features that I have to (re)implement. I've been using the P13 firmware for around a week with proportional regen and first of all I have to say “bravo”. Really love the progressive feel I get with regen now.

Previously, using one of your right-handed half-twist throttles with the built-in button, I have had regen set to max (0v). To enable it, I'd simply press the button and although pretty jarring, it would bring my bike to a quick halt. Most importantly, I could reach the button without compromising the reach of my physical brakes.

With the new proportional regen however, I feel that the same setup has caused my bike to be less safe. Now don't get me wrong, it's nothing to do with the CA, but rather using the existing throttle to feather the amount of regen requires a level of dexterity that inevitably draws your hand away from the physical brake lever.

Having gone through the various alternatives in my head, I feel that a second left-handed thumb throttle would be the best way to implement proportional regen. Is it at all possible to wire up two throttles to the CAv3 throttle input?
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justin_le   10 MW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Dec 15 2015 3:39pm

Joe90 wrote:Hi
What is the max input voltage on the cycle analyst from the voltage drop trough the shunt ?
Great question, it's covered in the "specifications" table on all the documentation but the answer is +- 200mV (although that's a tad conservative, the op-amp won't really saturate till about 230mV)

So with a 1mOhm shunt, you can indeed capture 200A peaks, since
0.2V / 0.001 Ohm = 200 Amps.

but if the peaks are much higher than 200A then it would end up being clipped.
I fear to overload the input of the cycle analyst.
The CA will be just fine, but 200A through a 1mOhm shunt is about 40 watts of heat to dissipate, so hopefully it is just for short amounts of time or else your shunt will start to get very hot.
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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justin_le   10 MW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Dec 15 2015 3:44pm

danielrlee wrote: With the new proportional regen however, I feel that the same setup has caused my bike to be less safe. Now don't get me wrong, it's nothing to do with the CA, but rather using the existing throttle to feather the amount of regen requires a level of dexterity that inevitably draws your hand away from the physical brake lever.
Yes, this is totally true, and in fact we'll probably discontinue carrying the combined button throttle parts. You really want the hand opposite the throttle to be the one that activates the regen button, ideally just via an ebrake swtich on the brake lever, but otherwise a stand alone push button on the left side would do the trick if you have the throttle on the right.
Having gone through the various alternatives in my head, I feel that a second left-handed thumb throttle would be the best way to implement proportional regen.
That would also work just great. There is no problem at all parallel connecting two throttles together and combining their outputs. Since the throttle output signal can source current but it can't sink current, then whichever throttle has the higher voltage signal is the signal that dominates. So simply split your throttle wires to go to both the left and right hand throttles and you'll have made.
MrDude_1 wrote:I do have one question though.. what size is the power out plug on the Cycle Analyst? the one intended for running lights?
I have a bluetooth adapter I use for the serial data, and I want to run the power off of that plug. (I have a DC-DC adapter to drop it to 5v)
It's a common DC 5.5x2.1mm barrel plug, and you can get the matching jack for that at many places.
Last edited by justin_le on Dec 15 2015 3:46pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: one more thing
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by jk1 » Dec 16 2015 7:24pm

What would cause the CAv3 screen to stop displaying ?

I recently changed to an 82v battery and the bike worked fin and then on a high power run at 25 amps or 1.8kw it seems their was a spark and all power cutout , even my controller had no power which is weird because their is NO BMS in the battery ?

Then after pulling out the battery connector and re-connecting everything is back up and running but the CA screen has stopped displaying ? The backlight is still on and I can see the CA startup screen faintily when it starts up but It goes blank and u cannot see anything. what caused this and how to fix it ? is it the shunt that has failed or the CA itself ?

it seems I also cannot get full power any more ?? my throttle goes through the CA.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Dec 17 2015 2:01am

jk1 wrote:I recently changed to an 82v battery
Is that it's fully charged voltage? Or it's nominal?
it seems their was a spark
Where was the spark? At a connector? Inside a device spraying out of it's cover? From a wire along it's length? from the motor? ???

Then after pulling out the battery connector and re-connecting everything is back up and running but the CA screen has stopped displaying ? The backlight is still on and I can see the CA startup screen faintily when it starts up but It goes blank and u cannot see anything. what caused this and how to fix it ? is it the shunt that has failed or the CA itself ?it seems I also cannot get full power any more ?? my throttle goes through the CA.
What voltage do you get, using a voltmeter, at the battery connector, with and without it being plugged into the rest of the bike?


What voltage do you get, at the battery connector, with it plugged into the rest of the bike adn the throttle engaged, with and without a load on the wheel?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by jk1 » Dec 17 2015 5:30pm

The battery is nominal 72v but full charged its 84 volts.

it has happened a few times now, but it seems now when I unplug and replug the CA it turns back on strait away and not only just the backlight... which is better but still annoying why it cuts out under high power ?

the only thing that makes sense is the shunt power supply is malfunctioning on high power but why ? as its only 25 amps peak at 72v ?

I have no BMS so it cannot be the BMS.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by John Bozi » Dec 21 2015 3:18pm

Hi all a few questions,

Only recently did I discover appendix A (did mod 1) and have been over the moon with being able to play with my throttle settings as a result. Since then I have been sharing this info with others having problems setting up there CA...

How universal is the need to do the mods in Appendix A of the uug?

Image

In other words, do most controllers and do all versions of CAv3 require this mod?

(I know very little about diodes and how often they are used in the way my Lyen does)

Are there controllers or throttles designed to be plug and play to avoid the need to do any mods and still be able to use all the CA features?

thanks

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 21 2015 3:37pm

John Bozi wrote:Only recently did I discover appendix A (did mod 1) and have been over the moon with being able to play with my throttle settings as a result. Since then I have been sharing this info with others having problems setting up there CA...
That version of the UUG is incredibly old - you should download the newest version here and subscribe to the thread so you know when it's updated. (Actually, a newer version will be posted shortly... I'm working on it now.).

I hope you haven't been passing that old thing around - if you want to share the UUG - share the link to the download page instead.
John Bozi wrote: How universal is the need to do the mods in Appendix A of the uug?
In other words, do most controllers and do all versions of CAv3 require this mod?
Are there controllers or throttles designed to be plug and play to avoid the need to do any mods and still be able to use all the CA features?
These installation matters are explained in the newer Guide. There are different installation techniques illustrated depending on the controller and desired functionality.

In short, if you have a controller made after mid-2013 with a mating CA-DP plug, it's plug and play with no mods required. If your controller is older, has no plug, or if you want to run in V2 mode, you may need to fiddle a bit.

If you've been away from the thread for awhile, you should update your software as well.

Anyhow - glad you're finally getting to use some of the cool features :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by John Bozi » Dec 21 2015 3:50pm

teklektik wrote:
John Bozi wrote:Only recently did I discover appendix A (did mod 1) and have been over the moon with being able to play with my throttle settings as a result. Since then I have been sharing this info with others having problems setting up there CA...
That version of the UUG is incredibly old - you should download the newest version here and subscribe to the thread so you know when it's updated. (Actually, a newer version will be posted shortly... I'm working on it now.).

I hope you haven't been passing that old thing around - if you want to share the UUG - share the link to the download page instead.
John Bozi wrote: How universal is the need to do the mods in Appendix A of the uug?
In other words, do most controllers and do all versions of CAv3 require this mod?
Are there controllers or throttles designed to be plug and play to avoid the need to do any mods and still be able to use all the CA features?
These installation matters are explained in the newer Guide. There are different installation techniques illustrated depending on the controller and desired functionality.

In short, if you have a controller made after mid-2013 with a mating CA-DP plug, it's plug and play with no mods required. If your controller is older, has no plug, or if you want to run in V2 mode, you may need to fiddle a bit.

If you've been away from the thread for awhile, you should update your software as well.

Anyhow - glad you're finally getting to use some of the cool features :D
:oops:
Thanks

I just found p15, dam. Sorry.......

I was under the impression my Lyen was v3 friendly because it worked under legacy mode..... oh no..... the info I found saved me but have misinformed others will repost my apologies.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 21 2015 4:08pm

John Bozi wrote: I was under the impression my Lyen was v3 friendly because it worked under legacy mode..... oh no..... the info I found saved me but have misinformed others will repost my apologies.
No problem - your assist was a well intentioned effort and all got sorted in the end... :)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by danielrlee » Jan 05 2016 12:27pm

justin_le wrote:
danielrlee wrote: With the new proportional regen however, I feel that the same setup has caused my bike to be less safe. Now don't get me wrong, it's nothing to do with the CA, but rather using the existing throttle to feather the amount of regen requires a level of dexterity that inevitably draws your hand away from the physical brake lever.
Yes, this is totally true, and in fact we'll probably discontinue carrying the combined button throttle parts. You really want the hand opposite the throttle to be the one that activates the regen button, ideally just via an ebrake swtich on the brake lever, but otherwise a stand alone push button on the left side would do the trick if you have the throttle on the right.
Having gone through the various alternatives in my head, I feel that a second left-handed thumb throttle would be the best way to implement proportional regen.
That would also work just great. There is no problem at all parallel connecting two throttles together and combining their outputs. Since the throttle output signal can source current but it can't sink current, then whichever throttle has the higher voltage signal is the signal that dominates. So simply split your throttle wires to go to both the left and right hand throttles and you'll have made.
Having now implemented what I consider the perfect setup for proportional regen (for a rear wheel hub at least), I thought I'd give further comment.

As per my intention, I installed a left-hand thumb throttle (Wuxing reversible) to compliment the half-twist right-hand throttle w/button already present. I had intended to DIY a cutout switch that engages when the thumb throttle is pressed, but have decided not to for two reasons:

1) The additional thumb throttle as is gives the option of an alternative to the main half-twist throttle at times when I get hand ache/cramp in my main throttle hand.

2) The additional thumb throttle is great for when I want to signal a right-hand turn - I can now do so without losing power.

If I were to integrate a cutout into the thumb throttle, neither of the above options would be available to me.

I am still using the button on the half-twist throttle that you supplied as it enables me to engage both proportional regen (modulated by the second thumb throttle) while simultaneously engaging my physical brakes without compromising safety.

Maybe if you were to offer a similar setup to your customers, you might wish to carry on supplying the throttles with the built-in button. I'm not sure if this would be an overly complex setup for some users though, even if I was personally able to adjust to it in a matter of minutes.

Food for thought maybe....
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Merlin » Jan 10 2016 11:56am

maybe someone have an idea what happend when i try to update to latest firmware .13

as i updated alot CAs this time the ca worked fine with Firmware .9

i tried to update for a few minutes.....now the display has only background light on, and shows NOTHING :cry:

the Firware Update Utility shows:

Crashed!Error occured: Cycle Analyst 3 detected with bootloader version 0202
Now flashing with CA3-0p13_firmware.hex
Please cycle power to the device...


i hope someone can help

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Problem with Software Setup Utility V1.3

Post by teklektik » Jan 10 2016 1:34pm

Merlin wrote:as i updated alot CAs....
Hi Merlin-
Ya - you certainly have updated a few times in the past... :D

From the symptom, I am fairly certain you are experiencing a recently uncovered problem with the 1.3 Software Setup Utility:

The Problem:
  • If the firmware file is placed in the top level of the Setup installation directory, it will appear (as intended) as an option in the pull-down list of files on the updater screen. If a firmware file is selected from that menu, it will hang the updater and cripple the CA in exactly the manner you describe.
The Fix:
  • Instead of directly selecting the desired firmware file in the menu, select the 'Load File...' option and navigate to the firmware file using the pop-up file chooser. The file will flash properly using this method of navigation and selection even if the file is located in the installation directory, so you don't have to move the file.
This issue is presently being addressed and should be resolved shortly.
Apologies for the inconvenience, we should have posted up about the issue...

(That said, post back if this isn't your failure mode...)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Merlin » Jan 11 2016 3:10am

wtf ?!..... :shock:
it worked.....thank you very much.
(i had two CAs on my desk, and "crashed" both :P)

thats a real nasty bug :mrgreen:

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jan 11 2016 9:49am

Yep - it really is... literally everything hangs and stops working.
Gives new meaning to the phrase 'show-stopper'...

Anyhow - glad you're squared away - and as always, thanks for the post! :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jan 12 2016 2:49pm

Justin will be posting up a formal announcement here on ES this week, but if you visit the Grin web site you'll see that v3.0 firmware is available for download. :D

The firmware comes packaged as part of Software Setup Utility v1.31 so you get everything in a single self-extracting zip. The firmware files are located in the default directory for the file chooser when you select 'Load File...' in the updater.

An updated version of the Unofficial User Guide is also available for download here.

In addition to changes to bring the Guide up to date with the 3.0 firmware a few other bits have been added from posts in this and other threads including:
  • methods for determining motor and PAS pole counts and if PAS interface is 1 or 2 wire
  • hints for tuning ramping and PAS systems
  • section describing support for Grin Tech controller proportional regen
  • section describing adding a CA connector to a generic controller
  • section on monitoring charge current to allow partial charge cycles
  • section with a PID controller overview
Enjoy!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by r3volved » Jan 12 2016 5:01pm

[insert schoolgirl scream]

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Jan 14 2016 11:32am

v3 FINAL? this reminds me of duke nukem forever :)
took quite some time from "already very stable" to become final.
i hope new features mentioned by justin will be implemented soon now ... can't wait for 3.1 beta *ggg*
THANK YOU!

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jan 14 2016 12:40pm

izeman wrote:i hope new features mentioned by justin will be implemented soon now ... can't wait for 3.1 beta *ggg*
Actually, 3.1 has been cooking in parallel for a while now and oddly was the reason for some delay in releasing 3.0. There were one or two things in 3.1 that Justin really felt belonged in the stable release for all the loyal users who have been so patient -- so they were back-ported to become part of 3.0.

Anyhow, the more adventurous can look forward to release of 3.1b1 PDQ.
3.0 is now the pre-installed baseline firmware, but the newer stuff will be available for beta testers for evaluation and feedback.

Also - a small addition to the Guide and a little rewording brings a new version posting -- now available here.
Just wanted to get this 3.0 version tidied up and put to bed... :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Jan 14 2016 3:24pm

your work and contribution is very much appreciated teklektik!
if there is some beta to test please let me know.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by marcn » Jan 15 2016 6:51pm

I remember Justin mentioning an update to the fuel gauge and a change to the pixel count or something along those lines. I can't for the life of me find it. I've got a 21s9p pack of Samsung 25R cells. I'm only charging to 87.1v and it shows one pixel off full charge on the gauge. I've set it to Nimn chemistry.

What's the percentage of charge each pixel represents? Is it still 6.25%? It may be my OCD kicking in wanting to see a full battery gauge, even though 88.2v is. Running Prelim13.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jan 15 2016 8:49pm

marcn wrote:I've got a 21s9p pack of Samsung 25R cells. I'm only charging to 87.1v and it shows one pixel off full charge on the gauge. I've set it to Nimn chemistry.
3.0p11 Release Notes wrote: (1) 1750 - Battery State of Charge Graphic jumps 2 pixels near discharged state

The difference between 16 charge levels and 17 SoC 'charge level' pixels were previously reconciled by assigning two pixels to one state causing a jump. This was near the discharged state when charge level receives more scrutiny, so the jump could lead to a mis-estimation of remaining charge.

Revised by adding an extra (17th) charge level: 'Hot Off Charger' where battery voltage is 100% or greater of the maximum voltage according to chemistry. The HOC condition is represented by the top pixel which may or may not be 'ON' depending on the time since charge due to self discharge. The remaining 16 pixels reflect the original 16 0-100% charge levels and are extinguished one at a time during discharge.
Hmmm - that detail missed getting into the new Guide.....
Guess that needs to get fixed.....
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