Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw NO LONGER FOR SALE

cwah said:

Have you tried to put a single speed freewheel on the motor? You know, just to make use of the pedal when cops are around...

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I've done it before with scooter hubbies, and have a few plates made up to do it easily if I want. The difference with HubMonster is that I have it set up for too high a speed. The only way I'd even consider putting a chain is with my feet and legs protected by 2 freewheels in series. It's rare but they do fail, and just imagine how catastrophic it would be if my pedals started rotating at highway speeds. I can see one hitting me in the calf and forcing my leg under the bike, then a big wobble, and a high side and that all she wrote. Plus if I'm going to do it, why not be able to add pedal assist at some crazy speed. I'd need a 2 stage gearing increase anyway, and the jackshaft with the 2nd freewheel would make perfect chain alignment a non-issue too.

I don't legally have to have pedals anyway. Push carts used by vendors here aren't always pedal driven, so even those pushed by hand are treated the same as bicycles as they should be.

yes but for other buyer who don't have same legal constraints, the bike needs somehow a chain and something simple would be better rather than few reduction.

If I ride a bike without chain I'll get arrested :lol:

cwah said:

...If I ride a bike without chain I'll get arrested :lol:

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I'm not surprised if that's true given the direction that real freedom is headed in this world, but do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? I guess that means stand up kick scooters or skateboards are illegal, since they have no chains. Do you get sent to the guillotine if you break a traffic law that serves a useful purpose like running a stop sign or red light?

On a serious note, you do realize that the things that give HubMonster it's extreme efficiency compared to typical ebike hubbies also give it incredible power potential? Each half of HubMonster has significantly lower resistance than a Cromotor, MXUS, or Crystalyte motor, so each half can handle more current. No load current is far lower too, even at much higher rpm, so it's useful at higher voltage and speed. That's why at more than double the current and higher voltage, HubMonster takes all that power and keeps smiling and asking for more while at the same time still converting a higher % of it to power at the wheel.

It's designed for use on 200kg+ scooters capable of highway speeds, upon which people in Asia living in flattish areas pile whole families aboard. Our much lighter loads of custom builds gives us the ability to turn current levels much higher than the factory uses for staggering performance. It's simply too much power potential to even consider bolting directly onto a bicycle frame.

The motor itself prevents that anyway. It's 25mm axle with 15.5mm at the flats won't fit any bicycle dropouts. That's good, because it would probably rip them out anyway. For a build as bike-like as possible to take best advantage of a high power-to-weight ratio, it deserves a custom build, and things like attaching a pedal chain are an insignificant matter for a custom builder. At a price point comparable to hubmotors capable of less than half the power and much lower efficiency on their best day, it's not reasonable to expect HubMonster to be served on a silver platter.

I tried my hand at custom frames specifically for this motor, but I wasn't comfortable enough with the result to sell to 3rd parties. I'm trying a different route now by starting with a frame from an experienced manufacturer. I'll handle the different swingarm variations for both hubmotor use for street riding, along with a high power mid-drive for off-road. I've got motorcycle guys itching to do rigorous testing. The emphasis will be on strength and durability, so customers can expect more than any ebike short of a full blown motorcycle, but priced closer to the mass produced ebike end of the scale. How you guys meet European regs will be your issue to handle, but there will be pedal variants, just in a kit form, not a stand alone motor unless you want to pay for custom work. 8)

I actually see an easy way to fit your motor to any bike dropout, SpinningMagnet nailed it down with a simple custom dropout plate:



Get an angle grinder and use a thicker and longer stainless steel plate, clamp it to the bike dropout and the motor can fit without problems. Why bother with special bike frame?

However, I still haven't figured out how to put a freewheel on the motor... how much extra would it cost?

Care to share more John? Like timeline for the frame? Any pics or 3D renderings you care to publish?
I would surely like to hear more about this, and some pics or renderings too pls.

Cwah,

Beware of whose advice you follow. Especially when you're looking at high power, you want either a mechanical engineer or someone at least with experience in high power hubmotor builds, not someone with little to no actual experience and only with low power stuff. Don't worry too much though when it comes to HubMonster, because I deal in low hobby volumes and really look out for my customers' best interest, and wouldn't sell one to someone with a plan like that to connect one. Not only are you talking about the motor's connection to the bike with a metric ton of force or more in the dropouts, but think about the catastrophic failure possible since it's also one of your wheels. Plus, when's it going to happen?...at the worst time, when you get on the throttle to accelerate hard in front of or across traffic. I'd help you come up with a plan though.

You do realize that pushing a 190kg all up load this motor will do about 110kph on 74V nominal with a 5" wide tire that's only 20" in diameter, or are you looking for just 55-75kph on a 10-14s battery pack with 6-12kw peak input on tap for scary acceleration? Since they're readily available used and cheap in your part of the world, is a moped out of the question since you don't have metal working capacity? If it's gotta be more bike-like, send me a PM outlining your specific needs, maximum and typical all up loads (bike and rider(s)), riding terrain (hills, off road, street only, etc), along with top speed and performance desires.

macribs said:

Care to share more John? Like timeline for the frame? Any pics or 3D renderings you care to publish?
I would surely like to hear more about this, and some pics or renderings too pls.

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One is along the lines of a Stealth, Vector, Enduro, etc with a battery bay in place of a bicycle triangle. Because I'd prefer to offer something with a unique look, the other one is more along the lines of a Sachs MadAss, but a much cleaner look than the SaxXX electric. It's dry season now, and we'll have HubMonsters hammering hard on them by mid January.

Hey John I'm going to write you a pm now with city specs. I'm just needing a commuting bike, able to carry pessenger from time to time and quite stealthy.

Rest is open to debate

You've been saying about a custom frame for a few years now... hope it's getting closer to finalisation

Ok, I managed to have a good deal on this ODK V3 bike:


So I'm going to go ahead with this bike. My requirements:
- Carrying max 2 passenger (so about 300kg max load)
- 50mph max speed
- Busy city start and stop every few hundred meters
- Filtering through traffic with constant peak acceleration of few seconds on busy places
- Some short slops (10-15%) over few hundred meters

Is the motor up for the task?

cwah I think the hubmonster will fix everything on you list except the top speed. I think top speed will be a bit higher if those are 20" wheels.

Top speed is voltage dependent, and since the bike comes with 20" wheels HubMonster wouldn't look out of place, if it can be squeezed in the width. 50mph with no suspension and a big motor in the wheel, needs to be on very smooth roads you know very well. An ebike can always be ridden slow enough to match conditions...I do it every day.

As the rear is quite long, it may be possible to enlarge slightly the rear.. otherwise, I can use Spinning magnet tactic


I live in London so it's full of potholes everywhere. I suppose I need a good moped rim and tyre with front suspension and it should handle it ok at 50mph?

ps: here are the typical London pothole, appearing randomly on the road as rain and cold cracks the road:

Bluefang said:

Even on the low voltage hub monsters are pretty powerful. This is a fully loaded 140kg bike with 90kg rider+full gear. And the motor is not really working hard, its just using the most powerful controllers i could find at the time.
Should be interesting soon.
[youtube]xXPBCyfox6A[/youtube]

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you rode past my house in broadbeach haha small world!

John! How are are you man ! Still plugging away at the frame design , great news! I hear your buddy all the time on the radio, Gerry pizzaman . He is quite a sucess out here!! We get his pizza all the time!

Re some stuff that people are doing here. I wouldnt put the motor on any bicycle thing with less than 8' of rear travel (and front!). and it would have to be mid drive. Any other application you can use a 'more bicycle' 50mm stator motor there are many , and have all the power u need. ( i know this is a sales thread sorry john But you are right about the saftey concerns of having that much speed without the hardware to control the bike at those speeds etc. I can jump the potholes if i see them in time, if not my suspension eats it for breakfast in 90 percent of the time. the other wierd shaped things i hit cause damaage but i still have wrists thanks to various bomber forks. ?:>


so would this motor be suitable for a shifter cart conversion .? i have 2 of them on the bench . full disc brakes. how would you power it 2x sevcon gen 4? its dual windings right?
cheers brother i hope to see your country soon!!
mike hydro

I would like to share a project I have been working on.  As my current bike build is nearing an end am looking ahead to future builds.  My hubmonster motor has been quietly waiting in the corner of my shop.  Hopefully this project will happen sooner rather than later.  In the meantime there are many specifics to work out.  This model was an attempt to see how many batteries could comfortably fit.  Ideally it would be a bit more slim and lightweight so this pack is probably a bit overkill

Bike frame is based off the Motoped but modified to be 6 inches longer and support the battery pack of 36s30p of 18650 (14kwh!)

Volted up and geared down to 80mph for maximum acceleration!

jansevr said:

I would like to share a project I have been working on.  As my current bike build is nearing an end am looking ahead to future builds.  My hubmonster motor has been quietly waiting in the corner of my shop.  Hopefully this project will happen sooner rather than later.  In the meantime there are many specifics to work out.  This model was an attempt to see how many batteries could comfortably fit.  Ideally it would be a bit more slim and lightweight so this pack is probably a bit overkill

The frame is based off the Motoped but modified to be 6 inches longer and support the battery pack of 36s30p of 18650 (14kwh!)

Volted up and geared down to 80mph for maximum acceleration!

Spoiler: Pics

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Oh man that is a true king size pack. 152 v you will take that hubmonster to new territory with 2700 Rpm on the motor. Gearing down you should have insane torque.
1080 batteries,54 kilos and 450 battery Amp. Bet you can draw 1000-1200 phase Amp. Or even more. Depending on the material you choose that monster could be close to the weight of 125 cc dirt bikes. Probably with twice the power

Make sure you look into water cooling, ferro fluid, ventilation and what not.

Really nice rendering. I hope to see this bike on a racetrack.
Could you possible link to larger sized images so we can take it all in? If you upload larger image I will make that my desktop background and screen saver. It looks that good.

OMG! Its like you reached into my imagination and designed the exact bike I have been dreaming about hubmonstering. Except yours looks better! Amazing bike design. Build some and sell me one!!

Thanks for the kind words guys

It's surprising to see that even after years of this motor being available there are next to no builds that use it. Especially using it as a mid drive I think this motor has ridiculous potential. Hopefully it will be a project for next winter...just need to start saving up!

steveo is doing a hubmonster build. But he is doing a DD hub.
I think as a mid drive you will make the hubmonster really shine. And you have the voltage and battery amp to take it to the max. Insane and I love it.

Btw you got the brake hoses crossed, or at least for me they seems crossed.
But I drive on the right side of the road and for me front brake is right hand

Looks great Jansevr. What set of controllers are you planning to take to 133V nominal, 150V+ fresh off the charger? Even though MubMonster has an inductance of around 75uH, which is much higher than high power 3 phase hubbies, you still have to be careful dancing too close to the voltage limits with many controllers once you go to high current.

Are the proportions off in the rendering? Its seems wide to me for 3 parallel stacks of 18650's, and width is the one thing you want to minimize. A pack that big means you want range, so aerodynamics is everything, and a huge part of aero is how big a hole you have to make through the wind. Don't forget to send plenty of air flow to the motor to keep it running its coolest and most efficient.

Did you get the motor from someone who bought it through me? I ask because the factory actually made 2 models with the same shell, and the other isn't quite as capable. Have you checked the Kv or phase-to-phase resistance of the one you have if it was cannibalized from a scooter?

Time to get on with the build. I can't wait to see the finished build...hopefully with work in progress updates.

John

Macribs - you are right about the brakes I too ride with the front brake on the right hand haha sloppy modeling on my part

John - thanks, my models have progressed a bit since a few years ago I hope 150v might be optimistic. Most I've run personally is 32s or 134v fully charged. Ideally the voltage would be higher from what I've read from you but even 32s should be fairly usable.

It might be a bit wide as is. 14kwh is probably more than enough. Even 9kwh would be sufficient (should be able to keep around 140mm wide if necessary. That being said my current frame is 140mm and it seems narrow not a problem at all for pedaling. I can see going wider especially if there are no pedals. Range is the goal but aerodynamics are only crutial at sustained higher speeds which isn't the goal of this bike. Forced air or scoops/ferrofluid/etc can be experimented with as the build progresses if necessary to cool the motor. I got it from a guy who had a fender bender with his scooter. I haven't checked the kv or phase to phase. Kv should be 18 right? And remind me on the phase to phase. I'll have to check. I didn't realize there were different motors for the same case. What are the other differences? Less weight from less copper fill?

Whenever I actually start building I'll be sure to post updated and more than likely contact you with questions as well as advice from other members here

I just found out they had 2 models of what I call MidMonster and 2 models of HubMonster. The only difference they can tell me about is Kv, and the ones I've dealt in are the faster winds. They call HubMonster a Kv of 19, though with my controllers I got 18.3rpm/volt just the bare motor in stock form. The other model is wound a bit slower, so resistance will be slightly higher giving it lower current handling. The phase-to-phase resistance on mine is .032 ohm for each set of phases giving the motor .016 ohm of resistance for comparison purposes to 3 phase motors.

My guess is that they also have slightly fewer laminations in the stack for the slower lower power rated version, since that's what they did with the long ago discontinued 3 phase I call MiniMonster. Both versions of it used the same shell with different magnet lengths to go with the different stator widths. They're prevented by NDA to share stator details of their 6 phase motors, so the only way to know about lam stacks and windings is to open one up.

Running as a mid-drive and planning high voltage and high power on a relatively heavy street bike I would definitely plan on ventilating using my blades on the exhaust side approach. It works tremendously well (and even better at the higher rpm you'll run), and in a mid-drive you can easily shield it from the only concern of going ventilated, which is sucking something into the motor. You could even filter the intake, as well as have it draw some air through your battery pack to ensure it stays cool too. Even if you only plan lower current at first, the cooler operating temps means better efficiency, and it gives you flexibility to tune much higher later. I can't imagine ever going back to riding an ebike where motor temp is a concern other than in slow stop-n-go traffic on a hot day that's hard even for a 75kw cooling system of a car, and tucked in behind a battery pack virtually assures heat issues for a sealed outrunner, ie hubmotor.

Great renders Jansevr. I'm considering a hubmonster for a Honda Grom style build - short range and agile acceleration for a friday fun commute. Currently running an Aprilia RS125 with ME1114 and Sevcon 4 with 100ah and its too sluggish compared to my big Mxus offroaders. The hubmonster with two controllers seems much easier to configure. The sevcon is an infinitely configurable tweak chariot. It should be simpler than it is.

7kw continuous and whats the max and for how long?

Is there a way to get shipping cheaper, by boat instead of $12/kg air?

I've been running the hubmonster for couple months now on 2 - max e - adapttos.. and it is very fun..

15s6p 20c lipos is my configuration - 57.75 Nominal..

my setup is peaking around 23kw.. however i'm limiting it around 18-19kw with Adaptto's limiter still in place at "63" total.. with my really long swing arm .. i get no front wheel lift.. and the holy shit hold on for dear live position.

I think my speedometer is off.. My bike feels like it tops around 80km/h or so.. .. however the max speed is reading around 50km/h.. something defiantly off..I will play with this shortly when i have some time..

Acceleration is really good IMO.. I have no need to turn up the voltage to 18s.. or even use Adapptos speed adjustment settings .. or pwr time to give more speed.. i'm happy with it.. maybe if it sees a drag strip.. or i'm challenged by someone to race.. only then will i think of turning it up..

I have installed the Adaptto temp sensor in the motor.. i just need to wire it to the controller.. but i've been watching it closely.. and i'm defiantly not hitting an alarming amount of heat on its case.. and my motor is entirely sealed still.

just thought i'd share my experience.

-steveo