JP spot-welder, FET-switched, timed adj. pulse

We make the holders, they are great because after welding I epoxy between cells above the holders. After it cures, you can cut off the outsides of the holders to really make the pack envelope small as possible.
And there's still a little air gap for airflow if you so desire.

I use 0.2mm nickel for the sheet and 0.3mm nickel for stacking
 
Offroader said:
Thanks, so you understand my concern about the other side connecting to different cells. I drew out a lot of diagrams and also don't think it would matter. Each individual series groups have exactly the same length wire.

Yes, I intend to actually weld a very small nickel strip, maybe 3 mm wide between the parallel groups for balancing. I will then run the balance wires to the bms. The reason for a thin strip is in case of a short it will limit the current draw from the other cells in parallel.

I didn't see the parallel connection so was really scratching my head.
The resistance of your wire is probably much less than that of the nickel strip, so the wire lengths are not going to be very critical. Depending on the copper gauge and the nickel, we can do the math on it, but WAG the copper is like 10x less resistance than the nickel strip for a given length.

Keep in mind there is "ideal" and there is "good enough". With an odd configuration, achieving ideal is going to be very difficult. The basic idea is to have many series connections so the current gets spread out and not concentrated on a single conductor. At the pack ends, you need a single conductor, so the simplest approach is to just use heavy copper so the voltage drop is minimal and the cells all discharge equally. Where you can run into trouble is when using only nickel strips and making every series connection through a single conductor.

Two goals in the layout from an electrical standpoint are
1. make sure the conductors don't get hot.
2. try to equalize the drain between cells in a parallel group.

Equalizing the drain is not so important if your discharge rate is low. When running 2C or higher, it might matter.
Another goal is ease of construction. Large nickel sheets that cover all the cells in a group is good for this.
Durability and safety are also very important. Avoiding potential shorts caused by vibration or bike crashes is high on my list.
 
For those interested about current or cell equalization, here is a post by doctorbass.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=920396#p920396

You can see in the image I actually designed my pack like the bottom right in the picture.

file.php
 
In any of those, if the parallel connections are really hefty, the sharing will be OK. The main pack connections on the ends need the hefty parallel conductors in most cases.
 
Offroader said:
For those interested about current or cell equalization, here is a post by doctorbass.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=920396#p920396

You can see in the image I actually designed my pack like the bottom right in the picture.

file.php

...

That doesnt matter if you make the connections properly like fetcher said.
Current will always share
 
okashira said:
eric1565 said:
BigBore... Couple of issues I see with that battery setup, and .3 nickle.

1. run the copper wire over all the cells, and not just solder a small section to the cells. The nickle strip connecting the cells together does not conduct current well at all!!!!!
2.That battery seems small. We run anywhere from 60ah on A123's to 222ah on tesla cells.
3. The wires look small. 8 gaga is a bit small for dumping 2k amps. we use 4 gage.

Eric

Also needs to connect the diode to the battery terminal not to the middle of the lead. You are missing alot of inductance

So, I have improved the setup:
20160405_152323_1.jpg

20160405_230007_1.jpg
 
The question is, what are you trying to accomplish by changing FETs?

The FETs you propose have higher forward resistance at a lower current measurement.

Their higher voltage rating won't protect them from the inductive spikes.

They take more current to drive the gates.

They cost more.

Digikey has relatively few in stock.

The Datasheet link for the IXYS part doesn't work.

And they haven't been tested for this kit's use.

Don't get me wrong, IXYS makes great FETs and in all probability they will work, but it is important to first minimize and manage the voltage transients. Extra cable between the switch and the welding probes stores energy and this feeds back into the FETs when the pulse ends. The voltage this transient reaches is essentially unlimited. So adding a few volts of FET rating doesn't prevent the problem.

I don't have one of these welders yet but I would fabricate it with absolute minimum wire length to the probes (and battery). And incorporate the freewheeling suppression clamp diode, which is a standard part in solid state drivers for relays, as an example.
 
There are a lot of part choices out there.

Something with a lower on resistance might be better.
Alan, can you see a better one?
 
I would be interested to know how quickly these welders switch.

My own one, which is designed with RCD snubbers (interleaved on the bus between switching FETs) instead of flyback diodes, deliberately has a very slow turnoff (4us, still safely within the device SOA), with 800 Ohm gate resistors, to allow the current to gradually commutate to the snubber capacitors in the presence of their finite inductance (~10nH).

The advantage of this is that it safely captures the energy from all circuit inductance, not just that present in the leads, and the FETs never have to absorb any energy in avalanche operation.
 
fechter said:
There are a lot of part choices out there.

Something with a lower on resistance might be better.
Alan, can you see a better one?

I haven't looked much, but doing some quick parametric sorting I see that the IRF1324 has a fairly low tolerance for single pulse Avalanche Energy compared to some others in this performance regime, about a quarter of a Joule compared to 1.5J or 1.9J for some other parts in the 1.3 milliOhm range.

I suspect it is this Avalanche event that is blowing FETs, so selecting a part with a higher avalanche capacity would be reasonable, however dissipating the energy elsewhere with diodes or slowing down the turnoff may be a better approach.

Slowing down the turnoff, as jmz suggests is probably the most cost effective approach, is there a requirement to turn off so quickly? The tradeoff is a slow turnoff will increase heating in the IR loss of the FET. So one can only go so far with that. Interleaving with snubbers and slowing the turnoff sounds like a good engineering approach. A 4uS turnoff with a 1000A pulse would be about 0.01 or 0.02 Joules so not much heating.
 
Alan B said:
This looks good also.

auirfb8409

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/auirfs8409.pdf

$3.28ea from DigiKey. 600+ in stock. Those look pretty good.

They keep coming out with better parts all the time.
 
Alan B said:
This looks good also.

auirfb8409

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/auirfs8409.pdf


For Europe buyers, this should be ok ?

https://www.reichelt.de/IRFB-7430/3/index.html?&ACTION=3&LA=446&ARTICLE=132130&artnr=IRFB+7430&SEARCH=IRFB
 
rio9210 said:
Alan B said:
This looks good also.

auirfb8409

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/auirfs8409.pdf


For Europe buyers, this should be ok ?

https://www.reichelt.de/IRFB-7430/3/index.html?&ACTION=3&LA=446&ARTICLE=132130&artnr=IRFB+7430&SEARCH=IRFB

The pictured part there looks really sketchy. Lots of counterfeit parts out there.
 
Alan B said:
rio9210 said:
Alan B said:
This looks good also.

auirfb8409

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/auirfs8409.pdf


For Europe buyers, this should be ok ?

https://www.reichelt.de/IRFB-7430/3/index.html?&ACTION=3&LA=446&ARTICLE=132130&artnr=IRFB+7430&SEARCH=IRFB

The pictured part there looks really sketchy. Lots of counterfeit parts out there.


You think it`s chinese sub-stuff ? They haven`t the right pic for every item they sell.
 
I think you will find those mosfets will blow very quickly.
Stick with the irf1234s. Their low voltage makes them more tolerant of avalanche.
With my diode mod I still running wonderfully at over 3kA now. I can get full flagging on 0.3mm nickel and I'm not even on full power.
I run 9V with a 0.001 Ohm battery

Further to the diode mod, I suggest looking into ~12V rated TVS diodes (or ~14V if you're using a 12V lead acid) and place them across the source drain. Put a few in parallel, and they will take the avalanche to further protect the fets.
 
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