New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ScooterMan101 » Jul 26 2016 12:28pm

Who has weighed this motor with all the parts , crankarms , bolts, etc. ?

What does it really weigh ?

What did you buy it for , and shipping costs to where you are ?

From initial specs and price, this looks like a better option than the BBS series mid drive is finally available .
I am sure many here are interested in reliability,

and Hack-ability , meaning how to wire in a throttle / cruise / etc. ( for many of us torque sensing does not work , when you have knee injuries / arthritis in the knees you can not put much torque into the pedals )
So a Throttle / Cruise for the street use is needed.

Also

It looks from one post that in order to uses a different chainring , on some bikes, that a aftermarket spider will have to be made,

Perhaps a few spiders that include the following features.

1) available to convert to chainrings that are 110 bcd
and another one made to accept 130 bcd chainrings .

2 ) both sizes above ( 110 bcd & 130 bcd ) with different chainlines ( in other words the spider dished in order to have a different chainline ) perhaps 4 or 5 to cover most bikes that will be converted .

For someone here on E.S. that has a machine shop or knows someone who does,
here is your chance to make some money , by selling such spiders to end users and to the companies that are selling / and are going to be selling this mid drive motor.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

thowaa   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thowaa » Jul 27 2016 12:33am

I think it is possible to add a throttle. There are three ports on the display. Two ports are for break handles with power-off switches, and I'm quite sure I saw a diagram showing that the mid port is for a throttle, but I can't find it back. Anyway, using a throttle is illegal here.

The TSDZ2 spider is a standard 110 bcd and is suitable for two chainwheels. The problem larsottar assess is that the original chainwheel (not the spider) has a considerable offset inwards relative to the spider. This gives a large gap between the chainwheels when adding a second on the outside. He turned his second chainwheel to reduce the gap. You can also replace the original chainwheel. This will move the chain path a bit further out.

ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ScooterMan101 » Jul 27 2016 1:10am

Thankfully Throttles are legal where I live. If more countries do what England did ( Brixit ) and decide/make their own future and laws based on what is best for them, then more countries will allow throttles on e-bikes, as long as the e-bike community comes together and gets active on/with the Political System of your home Country.

So then , from larsottar's experience , and anyone else who wants to use standard FSA / RaceFace / Shimano , 2 Chainrings up front gearing system , they would need for best alignment , an aftermarket custom spider to use those two chainrings.
On my bike I use both of my front Chainrings since I live in a hilly/mountainous area,
so I have a strong interest in getting such a better spider designed/made, before I would buy this mid-drive.
thowaa wrote:I think it is possible to add a throttle. There are three ports on the display. Two ports are for break handles with power-off switches, and I'm quite sure I saw a diagram showing that the mid port is for a throttle, but I can't find it back. Anyway, using a throttle is illegal here.

The TSDZ2 spider is a standard 110 bcd and is suitable for two chainwheels. The problem larsottar assess is that the original chainwheel (not the spider) has a considerable offset inwards relative to the spider. This gives a large gap between the chainwheels when adding a second on the outside. He turned his second chainwheel to reduce the gap. You can also replace the original chainwheel. This will move the chain path a bit further out.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

thowaa   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thowaa » Jul 27 2016 3:23am

ScooterMan101 wrote:So then , from larsottar's experience , and anyone else who wants to use standard FSA / RaceFace / Shimano , 2 Chainrings up front gearing system , they would need for best alignment , an aftermarket custom spider to use those two chainrings.
On my bike I use both of my front Chainrings since I live in a hilly/mountainous area,
so I have a strong interest in getting such a better spider designed/made, before I would buy this mid-drive.
Sorry, but I don't understand you. The original spider should work well with two chainrings. Can't see how a custom spider will help you. You can use two standard 110 bcd chainrings. Though, maybe not too small inner chainring as the chain will probably interfere with the motor housing.

Here is a video of a trike using the TSDZ2 with two chainrings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSNe89D_cC4

PhaenTa   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by PhaenTa » Jul 27 2016 6:52am

So.. My kit came back from repair and it was the
brushless motor iself that had to be replaced.

I recall that a few days prior to this fault happening I was climbing a steep hill in a few gears past the lowest one.
So my conclusion is to use the lowest gear when there is going to be a lot of load on the motor to be on the safe side.

Also, increasing the A setting to 25 seems to provide a good boost on my motor. Even though the battery I use is rated at 8Ah I suppose the motor is using the burst of it.

And in addition it is much quieter now. Perhaps an improved version was installed?

keithmac   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by keithmac » Jul 27 2016 12:24pm

What are they like to ride?, how good is the torque sensing?.

PhaenTa   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by PhaenTa » Jul 27 2016 4:36pm

keithmac wrote:What are they like to ride?, how good is the torque sensing?.
I think that several reviews in this very thread describe that quite well. Check them out. But in general, the motor feels powerful but you have to provide force, especially uphill. It will not propel you by itself even in turbo mode. Torque sensing is good. Starts as soon as you pedal and stops when you stop. Power distribution is smooth.

thowaa   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thowaa » Jul 27 2016 11:19pm

PhaenTa wrote:Also, increasing the A setting to 25 seems to provide a good boost on my motor. Even though the battery I use is rated at 8Ah I suppose the motor is using the burst of it.
I guess the A setting, which is called 'Power adjustment' in the user manual, is the peak current limit the motor will draw from the battery. You should be sure that your battery can deliver it before you fiddle with the setting. Batteries for RC cars etc. are usually marked with a C rating which tells you the peak current limit of the battery, but it doesn't seem that ebike batteries come with such info. (?) If your 8 Ah battery is a 2C, you should not use a setting above 16 A. At best your battery will be drained fast and get a shorter life, at worst your battery can be overheated and damaged.

As the software setting range is 0-32 A I guess we can assume that the motor controller can handle 32 A, but that might not be the case either. :?

If my guess about the A setting is correct, it means you can adjust the peak effect of your motor.
Default is 36V * 16A = 576W.
Max is 36V * 32A = 1152W.
But, you have to make sure that your battery can deliver the current.

PhaenTa   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by PhaenTa » Jul 28 2016 1:59am

I am aware of that. Have been doing RC for 25 years. :D
But others may benefit from this info. So a good write up.

My battery is rated at 4C btw so it should be ok.

PhaenTa   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by PhaenTa » Jul 28 2016 2:07am

Also, at 36V the battery is depleted so you should calculate at 42V x 16 etc. I highly doubt that this tiny motor could deliver anything near 1344W at the 32A setting though. It would certainly be advertised as more than 250W / 350W in that case :shock: So it's probably just a universal menu.

thowaa   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thowaa » Jul 28 2016 2:57am

PhaenTa wrote:It would certainly be advertised as more than 250W / 350W in that case :shock:
No, the advertised effect is the nominal effect, not the peak. Confusing thing caused by the laws. :?

Btw: I wonder if the Japan vs Europe Mode setting has anything to do with the 350W vs 250W version of this motor? What are the ebike rules in Japan? Anyone who has the 350W version and can post the default settings? Or is it different hw in the two motor versions?

PhaenTa   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by PhaenTa » Jul 28 2016 3:15am

thowaa wrote: No, the advertised effect is the nominal effect, not the peak. Confusing thing caused by the laws. :?
Yes, of course. I forgot to add that. But you know the marketing guys. They often operate at max levels for good numbers on paper. I think that if this motor delivered 1300W Max, or even 1000W that would be a part of its marketing.

Just my opinion of course.

I have no good means of measuring its current draw atm (my multimeter only has a claw, no serial Amp measurement) and I don't know anyone with a 32A 36V battery either. But that would be better than guessing :)

Have no idea about the eur setting but it doesn't seem to affect anything on my bike.

keithmac   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by keithmac » Jul 28 2016 12:16pm

Do you think you could get 30mph with enough battery on a road bike with this setup?.

puregsr   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by puregsr » Jul 28 2016 3:28pm

Saw this motor awhile back and surprised that in-depth discussion hasn't picked up in this forum.

What is the chainline measured from middle of the seat tube to the middle of the chainring?
What's the consensus on the reliability? How does it compare to the Bosch system?
Can it handle 13S or 14S?

I want to try it out especially if the torque sensing is close to the Bosch system, but it's not exactly "cheap" as an impulse buy.

thowaa   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thowaa » Jul 28 2016 11:24pm

thowaa wrote:Btw: I wonder if the Japan vs Europe Mode setting has anything to do with the 350W vs 250W version of this motor? What are the ebike rules in Japan? Anyone who has the 350W version and can post the default settings? Or is it different hw in the two motor versions?
I have got different answers from two different dealers. One says the JAP/EUR setting will change the charset. The other says I shouldn't care about it, as it is for another model. Anyway, the conclusion is that this setting will probably not affect the motor performance. :lol:

leangains   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by leangains » Jul 30 2016 7:25am

What is the price of this motor, ive seen anywhere from $280-350. At that price, you might as well get a bbs02.... if It can handle 14s it would be more ideal, and run less amps. I have emailed the factory and will post their response.

1. Anybody run it against a bbs02?
2. Would it be ideal for someone who has a bad knee, does the motor reduce force pedaling dramatically? As in keeping heart rate low with just minor force?

This thing on a recumbent bike would be perfect. Get the speeds on the flats,downhills of a fast ebike, and the help on uphills.... :D

keithmac   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by keithmac » Jul 30 2016 11:39am

It's torque sensing so depending on how hard you push the pedals it adds appropriate assist.

leangains   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by leangains » Jul 31 2016 9:54am

for 48v I was redirected to the TSDZ3 motor,

http://www.tsbicycle.net/products_detai ... d=138.html

worth checking out... however looks less concealed as the z2

induna   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by induna » Jul 31 2016 11:39am

That sure looks like it has to be installed into a purpose built frame, and can not be used to retrofit an existing bicycle.

thowaa   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thowaa » Aug 02 2016 4:31am

I have tried the A setting at 5 A and 25 A and I feel no difference.
I need to get an ampere-meter to do measurements...

Squirrelpie0   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Squirrelpie0 » Aug 04 2016 9:17pm

LARS
You've had this in a couple of months, how's it performing? Any new insights compared to Bafang?

thowaa   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thowaa » Aug 05 2016 2:01am

puregsr wrote:How does it compare to the Bosch system? ...
I want to try it out especially if the torque sensing is close to the Bosch system, ...
I have tried several ebikes including some with Bosch motor, but only for very short test runs.
When it comes to torque sensing, I think the Bosch and TSDZ2 are quite similar.
I think the TSDZ2 feels a bit smoother.
Perhaps is Bosch slightly more sensitive which also makes it more "nervous" in Turbo mode.
Though, I prefer running both motors in Speed mode, ie second highest assist level.
I only turn to Turbo mode when going up very steep hills.

EDIT: I have now tried the newer Bosch CX which is in another league.
Much more power and much smoother, but it is whining like hell and
it is really unpleasant to ride with the motor off.
Last edited by thowaa on Aug 29 2016 9:40am, edited 1 time in total.

thowaa   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thowaa » Aug 05 2016 2:11am

leangains wrote:What is the price of this motor, ive seen anywhere from $280-350.
That is the common China-prices. The prices in Europe are higher. Some examples...
elektrofahrrad-einfach.de
conrad.de
ebike-sales.co.uk
leangains wrote:Would it be ideal for someone who has a bad knee, does the motor reduce force pedaling dramatically? As in keeping heart rate low with just minor force?
For people with health issues and/or special requirements there is only one good advice... Seek local dealers and try different bikes. :)
leangains wrote:This thing on a recumbent bike would be perfect.
Did you see the video posted further up ?

keithmac   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by keithmac » Aug 05 2016 2:34am

I bought mine from ebike-sales.co.uk, ordered Friday and arrived Tuesday.

UK backup if anything goes wrong which is more than worth any minor saving from sourcing on myself from China.

The 350w TSDZ2 and 36v 15ah battery came to £660. Both look excellent quality!.

PhaenTa   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by PhaenTa » Aug 05 2016 2:53am

That is about twice the price I paid for mine incl battery from China. But it's not bad considering the warranty and piece of mind. Delivery time for me was within a week with DHL.

However, I would personally NEVER have purchased this for over 1000€ (conrad.de). I can get a decent e-bike for that. Or.. buy 2 new motors if mine fails and have lots of spares. IMHO some sellers in europe are really greedy.

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