Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by LI-ghtcycle » Nov 07 2016 11:57am

Yep!

The 3-speed is a even more cost effective & well proven IGH from what I hear ... BUT! This new 5 speed with increased gearing range, and hopefully equal or greater durability really has my attention!

I have had really good results in the durability department thus far using a NuVinchi N171B, but they are not as efficient, and no longer made.

What I have heard from others with the newer models (NuVinchi that is), is they have been made with more of a 250w spec motor from Europe in mind VS higher powered systems typically used in the USA.

I am considering building a BBSHD for a friend with the same frame I started with on my cruiser for a more affordable yet top quality E-Bike that will use either the 3 or 5 speed Sturmy.

We have customers clamoring for an E-Bike like the one I ride, and it looks like that might be a good way to bridge the price & availability gap, till I am able to crank out the custom frames, still gathering materials & equipment.
Last edited by LI-ghtcycle on Nov 07 2016 2:59pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by Harold25 » Nov 07 2016 2:00pm

It's exciting but still un-proven. I'd like to discuss the changes that have been made with the newest 5-speed compared to the previous model. I can't find much on the previous model though.

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by Harold25 » Nov 08 2016 11:06pm

WoodlandHills wrote:
Harold25 wrote:I just purchased an Sturmey IGH RX-RK5 for my bike, however I'm having trouble with the chain slipping on the front kog. What kind of kog do you use on the front? I know the RX-RK5 uses thicker chain, because we could not use 9-Speed bike chain on it. However, the new chain we're using keeps slipping on the front kog. I've got a new front kog meant for 7 speed chain on the way, and we've got the rear derailleur tentioned nice and snug. Do you have any suggestions? I'm curious about your setup.

I noticed that the thicker chain seems to float on the front kog, so I'm hoping the new kog will be thick enough to alleviate the slipping problem.
What motor and what chainwheel are you using?

My front chainwheel is a Luna Mini 30 for the BBSHD and I am using a heavy duty single speed chain by KMC. With 180 degrees of wrap around the chainwheel, I cannot see how you would get a slip with new parts..... The only time I ever had a front chain derailment was using the Luna Eclipse, the long gear teeth did not get along with my setup, all my other chain issues were at the back and were due to the misalignment between chainwheel and IGH cog. Adding a chain tensioner/guide fixed everything by guiding the looser lower chain onto the cog on the hub. A Surly Singulator is what I used.
Did you line up the yellow line with the red line on the hub when installing it as per the manuals instructions for vertical dropouts?

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by cycleops612 » Nov 09 2016 12:58am

Harold25 wrote:It's exciting but still un-proven. I'd like to discuss the changes that have been made with the newest 5-speed compared to the previous model. I can't find much on the previous model though.
even 3 speed beats the hell out of 1 gear for torque starved ICE motors especially on motorized bikes, mostly not the case on endless sphere (isnt that a tautology, like "reiterate again"?).

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by Harold25 » Nov 09 2016 1:29am

cycleops612 wrote:
Harold25 wrote:It's exciting but still un-proven. I'd like to discuss the changes that have been made with the newest 5-speed compared to the previous model. I can't find much on the previous model though.
even 3 speed beats the hell out of 1 gear for torque starved ICE motors especially on motorized bikes, mostly not the case on endless sphere (isnt that a tautology, like "reiterate again"?).

I meant the previous model 5-speed.

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by WoodlandHills » Nov 09 2016 2:52am

Harold25 wrote:
WoodlandHills wrote:
Harold25 wrote:I just purchased an Sturmey IGH RX-RK5 for my bike, however I'm having trouble with the chain slipping on the front kog. What kind of kog do you use on the front? I know the RX-RK5 uses thicker chain, because we could not use 9-Speed bike chain on it. However, the new chain we're using keeps slipping on the front kog. I've got a new front kog meant for 7 speed chain on the way, and we've got the rear derailleur tentioned nice and snug. Do you have any suggestions? I'm curious about your setup.

I noticed that the thicker chain seems to float on the front kog, so I'm hoping the new kog will be thick enough to alleviate the slipping problem.
What motor and what chainwheel are you using?

My front chainwheel is a Luna Mini 30 for the BBSHD and I am using a heavy duty single speed chain by KMC. With 180 degrees of wrap around the chainwheel, I cannot see how you would get a slip with new parts..... The only time I ever had a front chain derailment was using the Luna Eclipse, the long gear teeth did not get along with my setup, all my other chain issues were at the back and were due to the misalignment between chainwheel and IGH cog. Adding a chain tensioner/guide fixed everything by guiding the looser lower chain onto the cog on the hub. A Surly Singulator is what I used.
Did you line up the yellow line with the red line on the hub when installing it as per the manuals instructions for vertical dropouts?


My bike was originally a single speed with horizontal dropouts so I set the arm to that position. After that, yes, I aligned the two marks on the hub. If the marks lineup in (IIRC) 2nd gear it has always shifted perfectly..... If you cannot get this to happen, or of you can, but then you cannot get all five gears, you need to rotate the cable stop as per the instructions until you can.

It is no more difficult to setup than the Nexus3 I had before this..... Just be sure to fully tighten the cable stop when you have found the final setting. Top tip: set the adjuster on the shifter 3 or 4 clicks out from fully screwed in. That way when the cable stretches after the first few miles, all you need do is move the adjuster a few clicks to bring it back into tune. Once everything has taken a set it stays that way for a long time, so you don't need to fuss with it. Combine it with a GearSensor and even a complete novice can ride it w/o doing damage to either the bike or the rider.

I was planning to install a 40a BBSHD on my 9-speed derailleur style FS fatbike but it seems that only the triangle packs from Luna support more than 30a continuous draw and that bike has a pair of Sharks with 30a BMS's. That means I'll soon be running 40a through my SA 5-speed at 52v.....

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by Harold25 » Nov 09 2016 4:42am

WoodlandHills wrote:
I was planning to install a 40a BBSHD on my 9-speed derailleur style FS fatbike but it seems that only the triangle packs from Luna support more than 30a continuous draw and that bike has a pair of Sharks with 30a BMS's. That means I'll soon be running 40a through my SA 5-speed at 52v.....
I'm running 60a peak @ 48-52 volts. I get a weird noise going into 3rd right now. I don't change gears while the motor is running. I only change gears while pedaling, so I'm not sure what's going on, it might have something to do more with the chain-line. I've noticed the chain-line moves ever-so-slightly when the gears are changed. I should make a video.

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by Harold25 » Jan 18 2017 9:58pm

My sturmey 5-speed doesn't seem to be taking the power very well. This was expected somewhat.

4th gear sounds like it's going to go and 3rd might not be far behind.

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by Chalo » Jan 19 2017 12:26am

waynebergman wrote:I also noticed in regards to lack of cog sizes for this 5 speed we can add the Over Locknut Dimension of 135mm only. I don't see a 170mm version for fat bikes.
It takes a serious and expensive engineering effort to design, tool up, and manufacture a new internal gear hub. Don't expect it to happen for a here-today, gone-tomorrow fad like fatbikes-- but in this case the manufacturers of fatbikes can't even make up their minds on a standard spacing. 170mm is one of a few different selections. Do you want to be the one who invests hundreds of thousands or millions in developing a product based on assumptions that could change in a year or two?
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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by cycleops612 » Jan 19 2017 3:26am

All good input re limits for potential punters, but lets not lose our grip on reality.

WE ARE TALKING BICYCLE COMPONENTS.

"My component wont take 3kw, boo hoo/poor quality..." is not reality.

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by Harold25 » Jan 19 2017 6:08pm

Yes, so I might try my hand at a 3 speed hub when this one blows up.... Otherwise it's back to a casette, and replacing chains and gears every so often. I guess what we really need is an internal transmission that goes with the motor setup. I think 4 gears is all you really need at this power level to keep up with scooters and stuff.

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by cycleops612 » Jan 19 2017 7:12pm

Harold25 wrote:Yes, so I might try my hand at a 3 speed hub when this one blows up.... Otherwise it's back to a casette, and replacing chains and gears every so often. I guess what we really need is an internal transmission that goes with the motor setup. I think 4 gears is all you really need at this power level to keep up with scooters and stuff.
yep. the petrol motorised bike guys deal with these problems a lot, and the 3 speed seems the go for strength.

based on hearsay & supposition, it seems the latest ev cars have no mechanical transmission.

starting with hi volts like 450v, they can vary the torque of the motor by playing with voltage. an electronic cvt within a dd hub - cool.

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by WoodlandHills » Jan 19 2017 7:18pm

I removed mine because the hook that holds the shift cable snapped off during a chain derail. I went back to a Nexus 3.....

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by Chalo » Jan 19 2017 9:09pm

Harold25 wrote:I guess what we really need is an internal transmission that goes with the motor setup.
NuVinci N171. It's no longer supported with spare parts, it weighs an unholy ton, and it drags a little more than most gearhubs. But it's officially rated for 5kW as long as you don't exceed the input torque limit.

I think the up-to-date NuVinci hubs are rated for 2.5kW.
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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by Harold25 » Jan 20 2017 12:17am

I'm tired of replacing the gears on the chinese planetary gearbox motor and the cassettes/internally geared hubs. I'll be looking into a more reliable solution from now on.

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by Chalo » Jan 20 2017 3:23am

Harold25 wrote:I'm tired of replacing the gears on the chinese planetary gearbox motor and the cassettes/internally geared hubs. I'll be looking into a more reliable solution from now on.
How about using things at the power they're rated for? Do you think engineers pull those figures out of thin air, to cramp your style?
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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by LewTwo » Jan 20 2017 4:10am

Chalo wrote:
Harold25 wrote:I'm tired of replacing the gears on the chinese planetary gearbox motor and the cassettes/internally geared hubs. I'll be looking into a more reliable solution from now on.
How about using things at the power they're rated for? Do you think engineers pull those figures out of thin air, to cramp your style?
Seems to be a bit like stuffing a 427 V8 in the rear seat of a 1964 VW bug and expecting the the unmodified transaxle to humm along merrily, merrily down the road.

Small petrol powered scooters nearly all use a belt driven CVT. I have seen a few stories about e-conversion of these scooters but generally involve more powerful motors. It does make me wonder if such a transmission could be designed for use on ebikes.
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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by gogo » Jan 20 2017 9:16am

LewTwo wrote:
Chalo wrote:
Harold25 wrote:I'm tired of replacing the gears on the chinese planetary gearbox motor and the cassettes/internally geared hubs. I'll be looking into a more reliable solution from now on.
How about using things at the power they're rated for? Do you think engineers pull those figures out of thin air, to cramp your style?
Seems to be a bit like stuffing a 427 V8 in the rear seat of a 1964 VW bug and expecting the the unmodified transaxle to humm along merrily, merrily down the road.

Small petrol powered scooters nearly all use a belt driven CVT. I have seen a few stories about e-conversion of these scooters but generally involve more powerful motors. It does make me wonder if such a transmission could be designed for use on ebikes.
Even if (electric+CVT) performance was better than non-CVT, is the complication worth it?

The old ICE adage was "There's no substitute for cubic inches" (torque). The same applies to electric powertrains, but you have the option of eliminating a transmission altogether, so why not? Just get yourself a motor/controller/battery that can deliver the torque required, and apply it independently of your pedal-drive.
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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by LewTwo » Jan 20 2017 10:08am

gogo wrote:
LewTwo wrote:Even if (electric+CVT) performance was better than non-CVT, is the complication worth it?

The old ICE adage was "There's no substitute for cubic inches" (torque). The same applies to electric powertrains, but you have the option of eliminating a transmission altogether, so why not? Just get yourself a motor/controller/battery that can deliver the torque required, and apply it independently of your pedal-drive.
Depends on what one is trying to build. That old adage is primarily applicable to such things as drag racing and tractor pull contests.
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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by Ham » Jan 21 2017 12:12pm

Apologies if this is out of place but I just thought it may be useful:

I have been using and Alfine 8 with my Astro 3220 Tangent kit for a month or so now and all is well still...
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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by LI-ghtcycle » Mar 21 2017 11:29pm

Ham wrote:Apologies if this is out of place but I just thought it may be useful:

I have been using and Alfine 8 with my Astro 3220 Tangent kit for a month or so now and all is well still...
What kind of watts are you pulling through that 3220? And what final gearing?
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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by LI-ghtcycle » Mar 21 2017 11:38pm

To the OP, sorry to see that it appears the 5-speed isn't quite as strong as you hoped, on the positive side, much as has been mentioned, you might get the best of both worlds even with the limited gear ratio of the 3-speed, since you can run higher voltage and "regulate by throttle" so that your increased range of "gearing" can be made up with a 72v 20s 18650 set-up.

I have been very pleased with the ability for my cruiser to perform very efficiently at both low and high speed, generally, I am not cruising over 30 MPH, but having the grunt to make it to 40 MPH means that I can maintain 30 MPH even on a small hill in a headwind/cold conditions.

I have had no issues with the N171b, but as Chalo says, it's a brick house! I plan on trying a 3 speed Nexus on my next build with a much lighter frame, and with the relatively limited gear ratio (compared with the N171b) I still thing it will be fine if you have a torqy enough motor, as you will only momentarily be getting up to speed.

I have used as low as 12 Wh/Mile on a 50 mile trip with very moderate pedaling, and even when I am using the throttle very generously to hit 30 MPH+ with a fully loaded trailer, I rarely exceed 30 wh/mile. I expect this to get significantly better with the 3-speed.
Thank you Justin_Le for your selfless act of kindness! We all are in your debt.
Back on track E-Bronco! Now with Cro Motor Mid-Drive Goodness!
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=44997

Vision R40 w/3000w MXUS as mid-drive, NuVinci N171B rear wheel as transmission, Silent yet powerful, running 72v 11.6 ah (20s 18650 Li-Ion) to climb hills, tow trailer with zero pedaling when needed!

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=75247[/size]

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by WoodlandHills » Mar 22 2017 1:50am

The hub may very well be strong and I will be trying it again at some point, but the rotary gear selector is vulnerable to damage during derails which is a serious concern for me. I rarely have a chain drop, but when it happens I don't want it to lock me into a single gear. The traditional 3-speeds from Sturmey and Shimano have the gear selection via a hollow axle which is well away from the chain although it may be vulnerable to impact damage if dropped hard on the right side.

I am currently refining my BBSHD/Nexus3 setup to improve the chainline by going from a Mini 30 chainwheel with its terrible minimum offset to a Lekkie 42t chain wheel with considerablely more offset for a far better chainline. I have found a way to easily build 42t and 48t IGH cogs that come very close to duplicating my previous Mini 30/34t cog gearing without the compromise of the offset chainline as well as the crazy fast cadence from the 30t chainwheel. I am running 42/42 gearing now with a standard Nexus/Inter 3 IGH and I hope to be on 42/48 soon.
image.jpeg
Current setup with Lekkie 42t BlingRing and 5mm offset 42t cog on a Shimano Nexus3 IGH.
The Surly Singulator tensioner/aligner needed to be moved away from the axle to fit the big cog.
This was done by using a Wolf Tooth derailleur extension mounted backwards onto the Problem Solvers Derailleur Hanger Chain Tensioner. This is a singlespeed frame so there was no derailleur hanger to mount the tensioner to without help from Problem Solvers.
image.jpeg
Chainline with Lekkie 42t chainwheel and 5mm offset 42t cog and Nexus3

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by steiner » Mar 26 2017 1:02pm

WoodlandHills,

I'm curious. If you have found a way to build IGH cogs, was there a particular reason that you didn't build them with the necessary offset to match the Mini 30? I'm looking at building a fat bike using the 3-speed Sturmey Archer hub. My plan was to install the mini 30 on the BBSHD and then build the necessary cog for the IGH. Do you happen to know what your top speed was in 3rd gear when using the mini 30/34t cog gearing? I'm thinking this is about the final ratio I need for the off-roading I am planning on.

Thanks....

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Re: Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, it's real!

Post by WoodlandHills » Mar 26 2017 2:38pm

Top speed was about 21/22 mph in third gear with a 52v pack, hot off of the charger and 20 a few miles later. The problem with extreme offset IGH cogs is that under torque the lateral force on the locking ring is too strong and the cog pops off. If you buy a bunch of lock rings and never reuse them you can minimize this, but not make it stop. Even with a 15mm offset the lateral misalignment is enough to scrape the chain against the gear case of the BBSHD and to require a strong tensioner/aligner to keep the chain on with 100% reliability.

Using the 42t chainwheel with its better offset for better alignment lets me use a rear cog with only 5mm offset, but have near perfect alignment between the two cogs. A 42t rear cog seems to work very well and a 48t cog kept derailing in my first test although I'll try it again another day. Be advised that you will need a Goatlink to extend your tensioner mount for the jumbo cogs.......

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