Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 17 2017 4:59pm

Well, by designing a new freewheel, it would do the same yes ?

For Example the inner part of the Freewheel , where it threads on to a hub , would be redesigned to be/have a smaller hole, with enough metal around that hole to bolt up a spider ?
or
To bolt up the chain ring ?

>
tangentdave wrote:The spider bolts to the FW flange. The flange is the outer side of the FW, the inside is the opposite end of the ratchet mechanism and screwed onto the cranks or rear axle if a BMX FW. The cranks need to attach to one side of the ratchet mechanism, the chainrings/spider the opposite side.

I sell the gearbox for $600. It allows a whole 'lotta awesome.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by BonesNis » Apr 17 2017 5:18pm

Scooterman 101...

Not to speak for Dave and really for my own clarification, what is the purpose of your posts? It seems to me that you are trying to either convince him to create a one-off crankset/FW for you or provide you with a free gearbox.

He has repeatedly informed you that it will not work with his set-up and yet you persist. If you want to see pictures of his work, click on the "1" box on the top right corner of this post and view all the posts like everyone else or use the Google to find the pictures.

Sorry, I just don't get the purpose of your posts.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 17 2017 5:29pm

I want a new freewheel crankset too. Good ideas can come from anywhere. I am not making a freewheel though. No way.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Dogboy1200 » Apr 17 2017 7:13pm

You rock Dave!
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 17 2017 8:28pm

Whoa, Hold on there boy You are way out of wack , I will take the time to explain about progress.

First of all ...
I have not gotten any e-bike parts for free, .. never and I have many parts , nor do I expect to get any gear box for free, that comment is a insult and makes me really wonder about ... you .

The purpose of my posts, is to get people to move over to more efficient ways of doing things .

Example : for the people like Dave who have been developing ways to use RC Motors for some time now, there is a newer batch of RC Motors, they are Drone RC motors that are slower in speed and reportedly higher torque.
Now
Since I have just started to look into doing a mid-drive conversion using RC Motors, I have a very strong interest in RC Motors that need much less of a reduction , weather a gear box or other form of reduction.

Now
Often in the world of Progress, the people who have been doing things one way move on to doing things a better/or newer improved way . So if the gear boxes that Dave makes and sells now, are going to be selling much less in the future, because there is less of a need for them with the newer lower spinning RC Motors , then Dave is better off designing and selling something that will work with those newer RC Motors
in this instance if there is a possibility that there is , No , need for a gear box with the Newer RC Drone motors, by using just front chainrings as reduction .
So Dave, ( and anyone else who has been working with the faster spinning RC motors for the past few years ) and anyone else is better off designing and selling that newer part, ( that the buying consumer wants ) .





BonesNis wrote:Scooterman 101...

Not to speak for Dave and really for my own clarification, what is the purpose of your posts? It seems to me that you are trying to either convince him to create a one-off crankset/FW for you or provide you with a free gearbox.

He has repeatedly informed you that it will not work with his set-up and yet you persist. If you want to see pictures of his work, click on the "1" box on the top right corner of this post and view all the posts like everyone else or use the Google to find the pictures.

Sorry, I just don't get the purpose of your posts.
Last edited by ScooterMan101 on Apr 17 2017 8:45pm, edited 1 time in total.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 17 2017 8:42pm

Can you link to said engine please?

At 5000W, an Astro engine makes 5ft-lbs of torque. I'm skeptical a drone engine would be useful in this scenario.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 17 2017 8:44pm

Ok ,

I am still interested in seeing your gear box, there is a possibility that in the future I want a high powered mid-drive.

A Freewheel bolted to a modern crankset/BB bearings is my interest for now, because the goals for my first mid-drive are as follows

1 ) As light as possible, ( the first mid-drive for me is to climb up steep , very steep mountains, 4/5 miles and longer climbs at steep grades all the way up.)
so for my 1st , I am OK with going slow , in fact for my 1st mid-drive I want to go slow . I might even use a light hard tail to keep the weight as low as possible.

2) Cost , I have now spent thousands of Dollars $$$$$ on a couple of e-bike projects , my money has run out. will be using the credit card in the future so I will have to keep the cost of any conversion down as low as possible.

Latter,
When I can sell some things to raise the funds , ... for my 2nd mid-drive conversion I will be using a 8 pound, strong full suspension frame, and another 4-5 pound strong front fork, so with that bike I want allot of power,
for that build I want to have mega power and fast speeds, when going up paved canyon roads . I am talking Sport Motorcycle Riding here , without the need to fill a tank with petrol .
were are talking the kind of power to the rear that the people with the biggest DD Rear Hubs and 20 pound Stealth Bomber Clone Frames are doing.
But Again with the costs of a gearbox , and higher power motors I will have to sell a number of household items.
tangentdave wrote:I want a new freewheel crankset too. Good ideas can come from anywhere. I am not making a freewheel though. No way.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 17 2017 8:59pm

Dave,

RC Motors are new to me, many things I do not understand like the different controllers they use. How to hook up a throttle to those RC ESC's or even how a VESC is different.
So
I am going by what I am hearing, but also in reality it just makes sense for the RC world to make Slower RPM/Higher Torque Drone motors, since Drones are getting bigger and bigger all the time.

don't know if it is an Inrunner or Outrunner, so my questions / posts asking how things can be done.

Here is the link. https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?ca ... rone+motor

Let us know how they compare to what has been used.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by recumpence » Apr 17 2017 9:05pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:Whoa, Hold on there boy You are way out of wack , I will take the time to explain about progress.

First of all ...
I have not gotten any e-bike parts for free, .. never and I have many parts , nor do I expect to get any gear box for free, that comment is a insult and makes me really wonder about ... you .

The purpose of my posts, is to get people to move over to more efficient ways of doing things .

Example : for the people like Dave who have been developing ways to use RC Motors for some time now, there is a newer batch of RC Motors, they are Drone RC motors that are slower in speed and reportedly higher torque.
Now
Since I have just started to look into doing a mid-drive conversion using RC Motors, I have a very strong interest in RC Motors that need much less of a reduction , weather a gear box or other form of reduction.

Now
Often in the world of Progress, the people who have been doing things one way move on to doing things a better/or newer improved way . So if the gear boxes that Dave makes and sells now, are going to be selling much less in the future, because there is less of a need for them with the newer lower spinning RC Motors , then Dave is better off designing and selling something that will work with those newer RC Motors
in this instance if there is a possibility that there is , No , need for a gear box with the Newer RC Drone motors, by using just front chainrings as reduction .
So Dave, ( and anyone else who has been working with the faster spinning RC motors for the past few years ) and anyone else is better off designing and selling that newer part, ( that the buying consumer wants ) .





BonesNis wrote:Scooterman 101...

Not to speak for Dave and really for my own clarification, what is the purpose of your posts? It seems to me that you are trying to either convince him to create a one-off crankset/FW for you or provide you with a free gearbox.

He has repeatedly informed you that it will not work with his set-up and yet you persist. If you want to see pictures of his work, click on the "1" box on the top right corner of this post and view all the posts like everyone else or use the Google to find the pictures.

Sorry, I just don't get the purpose of your posts.
Dave, so sorry to butt in here, but I feel the need to chime in.

Your comment demonstrates a lack of understanding of power systems in general. There are numerous reasons to use Astro motors in these drives (one main reason is the fact that Astro Flight will make motors to a customers specific design).

You mention slower motors. Hmm, one problem with that is reducing RPM reduces power. Power is torque times RPM. It is fine to run a motor at a lower speed. However, you WILL lose power. In fact, I have been moving in the other direction. I have begun running smaller motors at higher RPM. I have begun testing motors up at 15,000 RPM. Higher speed translates into more power (until frictional losses build).

A decade back I went through thousands of dollars worth of motors looking for the Holy Grail. The Astro motors come the closest. They run as high as 94% efficient, they are customizable, compact, and reliable.

Again, sorry for butting in Dave. Game on!

Matt
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 17 2017 9:14pm

Matt ,

For my first RC Mid-Drive I am , not looking for allot of power, I am looking for
Light Weight
Lower Cost
Slower Speeds.

I do understand about more RPM's on a motor, I have / am now running a little Q100c cst motor on more voltage than it calls for, ... 14 s at the present time.
and when I get a new controller , I will be running that little 36 volt ( 10s ) motor on a 16 s pack.
So
I do like to play around with performance.

Mid-Drives and RC Motors are new to me, trying to understand them and how to make them work so I do now , and will have in the future , many questions about them and how to get what I want out of them.
( Again for first RC Mid-drive I would like a slow , hill climbing , light weight mountain bike)

The Kind of power you are doing / and that beautiful machine work is way over my Financial Realities at the present time, I would have to get a Bank Loan for either of them !
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by Sloppy Floyd » Apr 17 2017 9:36pm

One thought on the FW/Crankset/BB dilemma. I have run White Industries on all my previous bicycles as much as I could because they make great stuff and look good doing it. I was surprised to see them in the ebike scene when I first jumped in, but I am glad they're here. So with that said, what about working with WI to come up with an ebike specific crankset and BB? They have already shown their willingness to delve into the industry. They just started making BBs and have always made cranksets.

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by briangv99 » Apr 17 2017 10:04pm

recumpence wrote: I have begun running smaller motors at higher RPM. I have begun testing motors up at 15,000 RPM. Higher speed translates into more power (until frictional losses build).
hey Matt or Dave, continuing this line of thought, have you seen Astro do a 2 turn 3220? a 15krpm 3220 would rip on a 40:1 gearbox

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 17 2017 10:50pm

15krpm 3220 would rip on a 40:1 gearbox
More RPM is another reason for larger bearings. At 52V no load, the 3turn 225kV is 11,700RPM. These 16005 series are 15kRPM rated bearings...The BAC2000 can get us to 15k with either field weakening or 72V. I had more luck tuning the BAC2000 over the BAC800 with Astro motors. The little one hated rapid RPM changes. There's not much starting torque with FOC though and I couldn't get it to match how behaved the dumb Castle controller is. Physically the controller is the size of a small ebike controller, so way bigger than the Talon or even HV160. The mid and top end of the ASi was sweeeet. Torque builds all the way till the fun stops, just more and more. I should try it again.


I think White would be open to building a nice crankset. We'd have to show them demand for a specific design, they've got a business to run but this is right up their alley.

You're always welcome here Matt...make me say it...
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by briangv99 » Apr 18 2017 1:48am

tangentdave wrote:There's not much starting torque with FOC
I think that would be a compromise too far for offroad use, the torque the HV160 can deliver combined with the power taming of the CAV3 is hard to beat. Also I think the back EMF of the Astro motors is trapezoidal, so less less suited to a sine FOC controller. Still good to experiment with other controller options.

The tougher 16005 bearing is a great addition, I'd love to adapt that to my current 20:1.

For what it's worth the I think the ISIS bottom bracket is an acceptable compromise, the weight penalty isn't that high and they're reasonably tough now they have double row bearings on each side

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 18 2017 3:27pm

Right. The ASi controller isn't necessarily designed for RC motors but the advanced functions it offers are very nice.

I am going to adapt the larger bearings into the 20:1 gearset, it requires another change that I'll have to double check. Direct drive to the back wheel would be better with a 20:1 or 30:1 ratio, about 500RPM at the wheel.

Watt=[(Nm)*(RPM)]/9.55

5000W at 500RPM is 95Nm/70ft-lbs

3turn 3220 is 11,700RPM @ 52V, that's 585RPM after 20:1, 390RPM after 30:1.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by m4k3r » Apr 18 2017 5:52pm

tangentdave wrote:I am going to adapt the larger bearings into the 20:1 gearset, it requires another change that I'll have to double check.
I too may be interested in a set. But i want to see how these new abec5 hybrid ceramic bearings hold up...been beating the sh*t out of them since install and so far so good. i'm almost trying to blow them up :twisted:
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by briangv99 » Apr 18 2017 6:02pm

m4k3r wrote:I too may be interested in a set. But i want to see how these new abec5 hybrid ceramic bearings hold up...been beating the sh*t out of them since install and so far so good. i'm almost trying to blow them up :twisted:
will be good to see how it holds up, I've replaced mine with a KTM SKF 6806 open cage bearing, hoping it holds up to a bit power wheelieing offroad abuse

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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by BonesNis » Apr 18 2017 6:10pm

Dave...

When are you shipping your new creations out?

"New round of units going out, these include some changes I've been working on over the winter"
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 18 2017 7:42pm

A few have gone out already, the big and small sizes. Finalizing a spider design to accommodate the 24t sprocket using the 5x2.63" BCD pattern used on the freewheels, the 3220 kit uses 18->24t chain since the 40:1 makes such massive torque. Slow and steady progress, several people are waiting so patiently- I want to make sure things are right when they open their box, they spent a lot of money. Luckily repeating this process after the first go round is much quicker.

-dave
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by BonesNis » Apr 18 2017 8:53pm

Changing the spider design to accommodate a 24t sprocket on the freewheel for the 3220 100mm fat bike kit as well?

Thanks...
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 19 2017 9:06pm

all 3.jpg
all 3.jpg (243.13 KiB) Viewed 1277 times
New spiders were today's task. We need 3 designs, unfortunately.

The 100mm BB needs to use the cyclone freewheel (made by ACS I think), the White FW is too wide. Both the 100mm BB and 3220 kits need 148mm wide spindles, and on a 100mm BB there's not much stickout on the chain side:
100 chainline.jpg
100 chainline.jpg (141.29 KiB) Viewed 2320 times

For 68/73mm or 83mm BB's, there's enough room for the White FW:
73 chainline.jpg
73 chainline.jpg (181.34 KiB) Viewed 2320 times
73mm chainline (100mm kit shown, the important part is the spacing from the right BB face)

So, three spiders needed 'cause chainline is important. 3kW kits will use a 32t at the BB (same as before), 6kW kits will use a 24t at the BB; fatbikes will use either 24t (6kW) or 30t (3kW, frame permitting). All these can be either 4x104BCD or 5x110BCD.

I wish we had a perfect freewheel crankset....too many parts to keep track of. Ideally the outer (derailleur) chainring would be inboard 3mm more, but it's totally fine.

Narrow-wide or die.

-dave
Attachments
24t.jpg
24t.jpg (177.84 KiB) Viewed 2320 times
32t.jpg
32t.jpg (161.25 KiB) Viewed 2320 times
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by BonesNis » Apr 19 2017 9:24pm

Very impressive Dave, your dedication to your kits is amazing!
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 19 2017 9:28pm

I like bikes and riding. It's a sickness. And exhausting.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by tangentdave » Apr 19 2017 11:00pm

Ya know, there's a sweet spot. It's just now becoming technically achievable. 10hp and 40lbs makes an unreal trail machine. Bike/body separation is key, just like a normal MTB. Slam that seat and get your ass over the rear tire, pull that right wrist back, and ohhhh shiiit. Use the pedals, weight the outside, pop out of the corner. Downhill speeds on the flat. Flat where nobody else wants to build trails. But we want to.
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Re: Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Post by recumpence » Apr 20 2017 4:03pm

briangv99 wrote:
recumpence wrote: I have begun running smaller motors at higher RPM. I have begun testing motors up at 15,000 RPM. Higher speed translates into more power (until frictional losses build).
hey Matt or Dave, continuing this line of thought, have you seen Astro do a 2 turn 3220? a 15krpm 3220 would rip on a 40:1 gearbox
The higher RPM you run the higher amps the system will pull. 3 turn is the hottest 3220 that the Edge controller will handle from an amperage perspective.
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