new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Just got my Cyclone up and running.



A couple of questions for fellow Cyclone owners:

3 speed connector on stock controller - with nothing plugged into that connector, what's the max rpm of the motor using a 52V battery?

stock BB - junk? Mine seems kinda loose, will try tighten but local bike mechanic recommended tossing it posthaste.

*EDIT* - open image link in another window/tab to see whole picture - sizing problems I can't figure out!

To Squeeze

3 speed connector on stock controller - with nothing plugged into that connector, what's the max rpm of the motor using a 52V battery?

I measured with a digital rpm laser thingy and with a 52V fully loaded (58.Ish V ) output shaft RPM was 665 - 650 rpm hope that's info you can use and welcome to the both of you to the ES cyclone central!

To Nuggets : That looks very sturdy nice work,Those two small flat bars on the non drive side ,may I suggest if you can make a small fold in the center of them (bar will end up looking like a flattened "V" when you look at the tip true its length ) ...that fold would goes from one bolt hole to the other centered in the bar (ahh that's I think better way of putting it) That would effectively make that small bar much much stronger ,I think .I have some planned for myself in a near future . Just a suggestion

I'm still looking for info on the throttle/switch wiring ,maybe one of you have /could answer my question ,I posted on previous page.

again welcome to ES Cyclone central

To Squeeze :

I see you have a thumb throttle like I have ,can you tell me (maybe a picture ) what the wiring I have is ,the throttle has 6wire (Red/Blk/Whit ) they make the throttle work and the other 3 are Brown + (Green + Yellow) together .

My question is the Green + Yellow pair they connect to what wire on the controller ?

I know Green take up VBatt on mine ,Is that what you have also ? I think I fried my Voltmeter on a new throttle ,I have ordered two and don't wanna fry the other too.

BTW What is the rating on it ,24/36/48V ?? My original one was 24V ,I replacing them with 48V I'm wondering if that even makes any difference.

So at this point my throttle works for speed control but the voltmeter and switch are HS ,I don't like having the controller powered on all the time .

Thank You upfront for a answer on this ,on second look your bracket upgrade looks impervious to earthquakes ,good work ,your doing allots of rough rides?

Just finished my Cyclone build and took it for it's first ride yesterday! Thanks everyone who contributed to the discussion here. Some really great ideas.

I'm pretty cheap, so my goal was minimum cost for a decent range mid-drive. I don't do any crazy MTB trail riding, mainly just rail-to-trail type paths with my wife or old logging roads. The donor is a cheap walmart 27.5"+ bike that cost $120. I know it's terrible and will probably break soon. I'll be working on my next bike in the meantime. The cyclone kit from Luna Cycles was $350. I built the battery pack out of 18650 cells from new laptop batteries. The cells are all Samsung 2.8Ah cells configured in 10p20s. So the pack comes out to 72V, 28Ah. Right around 2kWh. Total cell cost was $240, plus a 80A Chinese BMS.

Total cost: around $800.

Holy crap, this thing is fun! Why did no one tell me this existed sooner?! It's like a dirtbike that I can ride wherever I want! I had previously ridden a 1000W hub motor, and there is absolutely no comparison between the two. This would probably beat my KLR 650 to 35 mph, and I really don't want to go any faster than that on this bike. It goes up hills like they aren't even there. I actually have to concentrate to keep the front wheel on the ground, even at 10-15 mph. I haven't ridden long enough to make any range claims. But even using 40Wh/mile, I should be able to hit 50 miles easily, which is further than I ever ride.

My biggest gripe is the throttle. There's about 0.001 degrees of rotation that corresponds to 0-100% power. Everything else in the throttle rotation range is just dead. So it's either full throttle or no throttle, which is probably why I can't keep my front wheel on the ground, particularly from a standstill. I'm going to add a potentiometer onto the GND side to try to eliminate the large dead zone.

Next is some kind of dashboard. I don't really like the look of the Cycle Analyst, and it's pretty pricey for what it is (I'm cheap, remember). I'm thinking about making an Android dashboard app that communicates with an Arduino either via BT or USB OTG for all the voltage, current, speed, temperature information... I know there's been several projects like this, but they're all either dead in development or not very DIY friendly. My plan would be to get a $50 Kindle Fire Tablet for a screen.

Grats Dtm1087

very nice build with in great cost to and yeah your bike is gonna break parts sooner than later , Mine did I slowly replaced EVERYTHING exept for the frame and handlebars all upgraded to medium quality parts.

hmm about your throttle what you using ? I been using a wuxing 48v thumb throttle and it s smooth acceleration no jumpy crap

https://www.amazon.com/E-Bicycle-Throttle-Electric-Invisible-Controller/dp/B01CXRNI74/ref=pd_day0_468_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01CXRNI74&pd_rd_r=DB4650QVXETSVCZYZFJ5&pd_rd_w=A9YFQ&pd_rd_wg=YcRmY&refRID=DB4650QVXETSVCZYZFJ5

I found them on BangGood for 15$ FAST shipping 7 days. Use free shipping but pay 2$ for tracking + a few cents for insuring it ,then they use air shipment and that's how you get it really fast home !

Have fun

Dimax -
Where did you get both your chain tensioners? They look sweet. Rear version the Surly brand? I just busted another Cyclone tensioner, time to upgrade that part. I've been riding slower lately hoping that will keep me from breaking chains and having to replace tubes. We'll see if that helps. The Lycra crowd is getting angry around my parts also. Trying to tone it down so I don't end up in some confrontation. I think they are just pissed they end up with some novice rider passing them without breaking a sweat. I'm riding for fun, not to be some Olympic athlete. The smell of progress. I just got the dual motor e-enduro frame working perfectly and now I'm too afraid to bust that out on the trails. The moto seat is too much visual evidence. Just riding it as a grocery getter and neighborhood cruiser until the dust settles.

Squeeze

Had to check where you are from. The exterior stairs in that picture don't have a railing. That's a lawsuit waiting to happen here in the good old United States.

MultiStars 6S 16aH on sale again:

$71.99/each reg $121.99

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-high-capacity-6s-16000mah-multi-rotor-lipo-pack.html

Skaiwerd said:

Squeeze

Had to check where you are from. The exterior stairs in that picture don't have a railing. That's a lawsuit waiting to happen here in the good old United States.

Click to expand...

Yeah, you're right, it's liability galore. Good thing it's in the backyard and I'm in less-than-sunny Canada!!

Gonna get to that (the rail) someday soon. Too much to do in the meantime: a CNC router to finish building, re-wiring my obd2 vr6 syncro doka and building or buying a snowplow blade for winter plowing on my Argo. Then I will get on to the rail. I will post pics too!

Read all 83 pages of posts... took me waaay longer than I should have spent.

Thanks to each of you that shared throughout this thread. I'm not very fluent in bicycle lingo, but I've been a 2-wheeled transportation enthusiast for some time. To frame this question: My mechanical and fab skills are probably a little above average. Time is always a factor.

Has anyone used the C3000W on a tandem? I have a used Trek T900 that I would like to be able to use as a tandem/cargo bike. Looking over my frame my biggest concerns are:
1. Can I mount the motor in a way that allows the left side timing chain to still function properly AND not worry about the stoker getting caught in the motor's chain drive??

2. The BB is 68mm square drive. If I purchase the recommended square drive BB with the kit will my left side sprockets still line up, or will I need to get creative/fab/find a solution?


It doesn't look like the standard mounts will do me much good. I am kicking around some ideas on how to build a mount that would put the motor further forward on the bottom tube OR above the crankset, which is tight and dependent on clearing the stoker left side chainring.

I'm totally willing to upgrade the components to get a quality end product. Not looking for a top speed bike; I would like to have some great hill-climbing assist when needed. We have a few long steep climbs to our favorite riding area. 98% on paved, 2% gravel/2-track.

ES member Coldrider has ask me where is the best place to mount the Grin Thermistor and a photo of my mount job for where it is in the motor case. I consider my Grin thermistor mount only satisfactory but likely it could be changed for a quicker temp response. The main problem is the Grin Thermistor is big and doesn't fit in the standard likely hot spots. e.g. the groves in the field steel for the copper wire coils.

To gain some evidence of the hottest spot in a burned out motor I examined my burned out motor.

View attachment 1

The hottest spot in this burned out motor looks to be at 9'clock with 12 o'clock being the phase wire input slot. This location of the hottest spot seems quite reasonable other than maybe a coil grove in the field steel in this left side of the motor. Apparently this location got hotter than the rest because both the hot phase wires and the hot coil wires touch each other. It is possible to position the Grin Thermistor here under the 3 phase wires and above the 2 adjacent coils. This location is likely the hottest place where the Grin thermistor will fit [In the photo this location is 270 degrees clockwise from the top ]. I am judging the hottest spot to be the blackest and most burnt.

Some thermal grease around the thermistor [placed at 9 o'clock] will insure better heat conduction and likely make this location yet a little hotter but this location is where you are measuring. The thermistor can be held in place with 2 small cable ties ran through the coil end loops.

There is enough length in the phase wires and space under the motor cap to move the phase wires apart from where they are bunched together which generates a concentration of heat sources. As the cap removes quite easily one can try separating these 3 phase wires quite easily. But I do not know if the closer electrical fields form such a relocation change of moving the phase wires closer to the Hall Circuit board will interfere with the Hall's sensing. If the phase wire relocation works that hot zone would be eliminated.

If you chose to change the thermistor on the Grin CA to a much smaller one you can place the thermistor in a field steel groove. The thermistors in the photo below are 0.075" diameter. You can easily drill out the almost big enough groover to fit the thermistor. As the grooves have a backing pad between the open space of the groove and the copper coils the drilling of 0.075 will not touch the copper coil's wires. Some JB Weld epoxy will hold the thermistor in the groove. I suppose JB Weld will not adhere to thermal grease.



These small thermistors are from eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/122311686798?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I am not sure how the Grin Thermistor is wired to the CA [is a 1K pull down resistor needed?]. But a nominal 10k thermistor needs a 1K pull down resistor when using a 5v power supply. The wiring of the 1K pull down resistor to the 10K thermistor is shown in the Kelly Manual below on the page 11 schematic near the motor. I placed the Kelly 10K thermistor and the IK resistor in the motor case near the Hall CB for a sensor to the Kelly controller.

http://kellycontroller.com/mot/downloads/KellyKBLUserManual.pdf

You will have to drill lead wire holes in the motor case for these extra sensor wires.

Roostre said:

2. The BB is 68mm square drive. If I purchase the recommended square drive BB with the kit will my left side sprockets still line up, or will I need to get creative/fab/find a solution?

Click to expand...

Can't answer your question but I hope this helps:

I tried several different throttles and found the Luna twist throttle and a CA3 with a .25v per second throttle settings the best solution to control the cyclone 3000.
I think the CA3 is necessary when using 20 cells hobbyking multi-star 84 volts (hot) SEE PICTURE
When running 14s (52v nom) the CA3 was not as necessary but still be nice to have..
Here is a video showing very tight trails at a 12mph average 21mph top speed .. Using Studded Vee Rubber Sno Shoe.... GREAT traction on the trails
https://youtu.be/ggfEeStGSRM

DingusMcGee said:

MultiStars 6S 16aH on sale again:

$71.99/each reg $121.99

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-high-capacity-6s-16000mah-multi-rotor-lipo-pack.html

Click to expand...

No shipping to US...

Driveless,

No shipping to US... [??]

Click to expand...

There is shipping to the US. Usually Fed ex is cheapest -- about $10.00 / battery for lots > 5. I just bought 28 on Thursday and gained 2990 points.

dirkdiggler said:

Dimax -
Where did you get both your chain tensioners? They look sweet. Rear version the Surly brand?

Click to expand...

No, the front chain tensioner is just an aluminum plate on the spring. The rear is the cheapest bicycle. And the covers on both are I made on a 3D printer

To complement the added control the CA3 provided, I moved the rear brake to the left hand with a 203mm rear disc. That vastly​ improved the ability to go full throttle and get on the brake quickly... Also allows skidding the rear tire for a skid turn and power turn

I'm looking for a little help here. I hadn't ridden my bike for a few weeks and I when I went to take it out it was dead. Like, no response whatsoever. I opened up the battery bag, and the only thing that I could tell that was wrong was that the connector for the thick green and yellow wires from the controller to the motor was a little melted. I replaced the connector and still no action. The app for the 60A bluetooth controller has an error message that says Hall Fault. The controller has power getting to it, but I don't really know what to test from there. Any thoughts?

Cyclone 3000w, 60A bluetooth controller (limited to about 70%), 60V 18650 pack (fully charged), right half twist throttle.

jakehroseberg,

you may have damp or wet Hall sensors or their leads. To dry them out remove the left side of the motor cover and then lean the bike to left and that will likely drain the pooled water but mere dampness can persist and short out the Hall sensors leads. I recommend using a low temp hair dryer or a heat gun used on low or stand back aways as they some heat guns can get to about 300F which is too hot for the wire insulation if held quite close.

I installed 2 weep holes to my motor similar to what Robo did on the left side cover plate of his motor. I did not blow compressed air through these 4mm holes as he does due to the inconvenience of no blowing source of compressed air from a tank of it nearby. After riding through water and washing the bike with a garden hose nozzle I could remove the drain plug and get no water to run out. But upon removing the cover I could see small sweat like beads of water on the case lid and elsewhere.

On 2 occasions while riding a rattly washboard gravel road I suspect the vibration caused the sweat beads of water to condense at the bottom and then the bouncing of the bike from the road caused this pool to splatter on the Hall sensors and leads. The motor would sputtered now and again on a similar road jolt but took off fine on smooth dirt. On another occasion I leaned the bike hard to the left on its kickstand to run the motor while oiling the chain. I then jumped on the bike but I only got a rattly click like you get from mismatched Hall wires? I pulled the motor cover and there was dampness everywhere. I gave the motor inardards and Hall Senor CB a hot air drying with the heat gun. The motor then worked fine all day.

I was not entirely satisfied with the 4mm weep holes for removing dampness from the C3000 motor case. I decided to install much bigger holes and position them so as to get ram air cooling while riding pavement at high speed yet have the capability to plug them for wet trail riding and stream crossing.

To get some ram air I needed to put an elbow on the outside of the motor cap in that location where the pedal crank does not sweep. I used a 1/2" copper street "L" with the small end inserted into the 5/8" hole drilled on the motor case and the bigger end of the Street L oriented toward the front. Here is a pic of the L inserted into the case and the lip of it segmentally folded over.




I additionally anchored the L on the outside with high temp hot glue and left the opposite hole without any fitting added.



There are 2 different plugs I use on this setup. I use a cutoff rubber stopper on the air exit hole where the pedal crank sweeps. On the Ram air hole I used an internal bullet sweat plug that fits in tight on the big end of the street L. I was thinking the stiff copper insert might help keep the copper elbow from getting flattened if the bike falls over on a rock. On a 26 mile trail ride the plugs were pushed in tight once and never came out during the ride.




The setup mounted on the ebike:

The Ram Air holes certainly get rid of the sweat beads of water condensed on the motor case when the holes are left open overnight inside the house [ambient 67F]. But how good does the Ram Air ventilation work for cooling. I rode a 10 mile 1200' rise of I-80 east of Laramie on 2 occasions. Without the holes and riding at 37 mph on the shoulder of I-80 the motor temp at the summit was 75C. With the ram air holes on the same stretch and speed the summit motor temp was 67C and the ambient air temp on the ram air test was 2 degree F hotter. So it is safe to say the motor was about 9C degrees cooler with the elbow ram air.

There are more tests of motor temp cooling in store. 1. Add a funnel to the elbow to see how much more cooling can be achieved with a funnel. 2. Mechanically enhancing the air flow with a Makita 18v blower. The air speed of blower exit air is about 180 mph.

DingusMcGee said:

I was not entirely satisfied with the 4mm weep holes for removing dampness from the C3000 motor case. I decided to install much bigger holes and position them so as to get ram air cooling while riding pavement at high speed yet have the capability to plug them for wet trail riding and stream crossing.

To get some ram air I needed to put an elbow on the outside of the motor cap in that location where the pedal crank does not sweep. I used a 1/2" copper street "L" with the small end inserted into the 5/8" hole drilled on the motor case and the bigger end of the Street L oriented toward the front. Here is a pic of the L inserted into the case and the lip of it segmentally folded over.


View attachment 4

I additionally anchored the L on the outside with high temp hot glue and left the opposite hole without any fitting added.

View attachment 3

There are 2 different plugs I use on this setup. I use a cutoff rubber stopper on the air exit hole where the pedal crank sweeps. On the Ram air hole I used an internal bullet sweat plug that fits in tight on the big end of the street L. I was thinking the stiff copper insert might help keep the copper elbow from getting flattened if the bike falls over on a rock. On a 26 mile trail ride the plugs were pushed in tight once and never came out during the ride.


View attachment 2

The setup mounted on the ebike:View attachment 1

The Ram Air holes certainly get rid of the sweat beads of water condensed on the motor case when the holes are left open overnight inside the house [ambient 67F]. But how good does the Ram Air ventilation work for cooling. I rode a 10 mile 1200' rise of I-80 east of Laramie on 2 occasions. Without the holes and riding at 37 mph on the shoulder of I-80 the motor temp at the summit was 75C. With the ram air holes on the same stretch and speed the summit motor temp was 67C and the ambient air temp on the ram air test was 2 degree F hotter. So it is safe to say the motor was about 9C degrees cooler with the elbow ram air.

There are more tests of motor temp cooling in store. 1. Add a funnel to the elbow to see how much more cooling can be achieved with a funnel. 2. Mechanically enhancing the air flow with a Makita 18v blower. The air speed of blower exit air is about 180 mph.

Click to expand...

I too have been thinking about cooling for the Cyclone, I really like your solution!! Keep the good stuff coming!!

I took the advice of DingusMcGee and opened up the motor to take a look. I had to lightly tap the tabs on the cover to get it off and this is what I found. I sucked up all the dust with a shopvac, blew it out with compressed air and tried it and low and behold it started right up. So, it's working now, but I still have questions.

- What is the dust? My only guess is that it's aluminum oxidation from the cover, that came loose with the tapping. I should have saved some and looked at it closer.

- What got it running again? Was it cleaning out the dust? The tapping with a hammer? Something else?

- Is it normal for the innards to be this rusted and oxidized after only 5 months of light use? I mean, I did ride in the rain, but nothing extraordinary.

- What should I do now? I think at the very least I'll paint the inside of the cover to keep it from oxidizing again. Is it possible to clean up the rotor and prevent it from rusting again?

Thanks!

Jake,

there are 2 obvious pathways for water entry. Atmospheric water vapor gets into chambers having the smallest of holes over time and condenses to water when the case gets cold -- well sealed camera bodies may use a silica gel capsule to collect this small amount of moisture. The C-3000 is not well sealed against water vapor entry nor is it water resistant to road spray entry. Water entry access is reduced after sealing the phase wires entry grommet [inside and outside] with silicone or polyurethane. But a machinist told me just because the motor cap is hard to get on the motor cylinder that difficulty is no measure of a good seal on the outer rim of the motor case. You need a gasket and/or sealant around the cap rim.

Some thoughts on the origin of the minerals inside the case? They were put there by Cyclone Agents to get us to buy more motors? My new motors had no minerals inside as they were clean as a whistle after inspection with cap removed. Any other conspiracy theories?

Condensed water vapor purity is likely close in purity to that of distilled water. I doubt whether distilled water affects aluminum but at higher temps? At temps of 100 C? No I say. Country surface water usually contains various readily soluble minerals of especially calcium and some potassium but little sodium and maybe some phosphorus. All sorts of minerals travel with surface and vadose waters. After these contaminated waters enter the motor cylinder the water boils off [or sublimates] as water vapor with enough pressure to exit the case through small holes when the motor gets hot leaving the minerals inside. Some of these mineral salts like street applied sodium chloride do slowly corrode aluminum.

Squeeze,

The nominal 1/2" street L copper fitting works fine for getting rid of moisture and offers some ram air cooling at higher speeds than trail speeds. But for more and easier airflow bigger street L's could be inserted into the motor cap namely a 3/4" street L and the biggest seems to a 1" OD nominal street L measuring 1.117"[this big size may weaken and warp [when tightening] the cap? significantly]. The 3/4" OD measures 0.868" or about a 7/8 drill 0.875" which I have. So for now the 3/4 L is the way I have the tools to do. The 1.117 hole could be dremeled out close enough for this job with the milling attachment when going from a 1.0" drilled hole. But I am thinking of cap weakening and going with the 3/4" L.

Another curiosity I have and which is testable is, what is the temp difference in left and right side motor as the 4 slots in the armature would act like a centrifugal pump and move air. Upon examination of the burnt motor housing I can see enough room for about a dozen 1/4" holes on right side of the motor case. It would be a nightmare to seal these except maybe with small screws or gorilla tape? I am hoping the motor gets enough cross ventilation from the motor pumping action and ram air to not need these holes in the right side to keep this side cool enough. Examination of the burnt motor case on the right show differential overheating on the right side with those coils under the phase wires on the left side having been burnt the most on either side. I have a 2 sensor K type thermocouple RO instrument for this measurement.