new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

MarkLeeds said:

MBV said:

I have now put about 200km on the bike with C3000 motor and the phaserunner. Peak power is about 2800w according to the ca3 (14s 18650 battery) peak current is 60A. The bike is described in this post https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=2125#p1303782



But I have not succeeded to get the phaserunner to recognize the hall sensors. I have replaced the oem ones to Honeywell ones. I have tried putting pull up resistors on them but still no luck. Any body succeeded running the C3000 motor in sensored mode with the phaserunner?

Click to expand...

I really like the look of the phase runner particularly the size but am not parting with any hard earned until I see some evidence of one working with a cyclone. Maybe some at grin will see the post and help you out

Click to expand...

I agree, I think before going the PhaseRunner you might as well get a good RC sensorless controller... just some thoughts.

G.

Hi!

Would you be able to use these cells?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-LG-36V-4-4AH-BATTERY-PACK-18650-EBIKE-VAPE-POWERWALL-BATTERIES-200-CELLS-BMS/201916138726

Why don't you want to trust Samsung cells? The Samsung 25r is probably the best cell for high-powered ebikes. A 5p group can easily handle 100A continuously.

You can also buy the Cyclone from Sick Bike Parts or directly from Cyclone.

http://sickbikeparts.com/electric-shifter-kit-shiftelectrikit/

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/3chkit.html

Does your bike look similar to this one?



If so, it should fit perfectly.

I don't see a need for a fuse. The BMS will protect your battery from a short (ask me how I know, haha).

Have you found any PAS sensors that fit an ISIS bottom bracket? I have an ISIS bottom bracket on one of my bikes, but for my lastest build, I went with the square-tapered bottom bracket so that I could use this Cycle Analyst-compatible PAS sensor.

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/ca-accessories/pas-12p.html

Is there a reason you want to use the Kelly controller? I'm constantly reading about how people can't get them to work with the Cyclone, so that's why I went with the tried and true Cyclone 40A controller. You can easily shunt-mod it to 90A and dial it back with a Cycle Analyst V3.

Where did you read the 24 will flip the bike? When I tried the 24, the motor doesn't even ramp up quickly enough to wheelie. A 24 isn't useful unless you want to pedal only. What you should do is just try the stock setup first. If you haven't tried it, you can't sit there theorizing. I have a box full of chainrings for my Cyclone from trying different ratios. In fact I'm still trying new ratios. My new bike will have a 24 on the outer and a 32 narrow-wide on the inner.

That's another thing. A narrow-wide chainring is so much better at preventing chain drops. I would go 1x and narrow-wide if you ever drop a chain. Getting rid of the front derailleur will save you from all kinds of trouble.

The 44/48/32 is misprinted on Luna's website. I ordered that one knowing it was a misprint after verifying it with their support, and I received a 48/44/32 which is what I wanted. Again, I recommend trying the stock setup first. Sometimes a 48 won't clear the chainstay of some frames.

I don't like Oro throttles because they mess with the Cycle Analyst, making the voltage readings inaccurate. I went with a Bafang thumb throttle for my latest build. I use it on my BBSHD bike, and I love how smooth and easy to use it is.

https://lunacycle.com/bafang-bbshd-and-bbso2-universal-thumb-throttle/

I bought this extension cable to cut up so that I didn't have to cut the connector off the throttle in case I needed to swap it out in the future.

https://lunacycle.com/bafang-throttle-extension-cable/

You will easily hit 40+ MPH at 72V. I run 52V, and I think I can achieve that.

Gman's old bike setup consumed 45 Wh per mile at an average speed of 26 MPH. A 10 Ah 72V battery has about 720 Wh. That means you will get 16 miles. The range will increase significantly if you don't use full throttle the whole way. The last time I went mountain biking, my Cycle Analyst V3 reported that I was using 21 Wh/mile at an average speed of 11.5 MPH.

Luna sells metal ammo boxes for charging.

https://lunacycle.com/luna-charge-safe-small-size-lithium-battery-box/

https://lunacycle.com/luna-charge-safe-lithium-battery-storage-box/

You could charge it in an oven too.

I bought a Sunkko 709A after a bit of research. Haven't used it yet though, but Bruno has one, and that's one big reason I chose it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr2_akGznxk

I bought the 220V version because I read about how people were having issues at 120V, but I've also heard of people having success with the 120V model, so maybe they fixed it.

Looking forward to hearing more!

GlowInTheDarkNinja said:

Hello all!

I am nearly ready to start my build but would like some more input from the experts here. Actually I was going to start buying parts today but LunaCycle is currently out of there 3kw cyclone kits. (More are supposed to arrive in 3-4 weeks.) and IMRBatteries stopped offering LG cells.

Anyways here is what I have been toying with for weeks.

Bike: I have a 2001 Giant Warp DS1 mountain bike. With a 9 speed (11-34T?) rear cassette. And 24/34/44T chain ring.

Battery: I planned to build my own battery from the start. I have seen praise for Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, and Lg. I don't want to trust Samsung cells personally, and settled on Sony VTC4s because they seem to deliver a great bang for your buck. However I am somewhat interested in LG's HD2, HD4, HE2, and HG2, because at 72V I should never draw more than 80A. But I was aiming for a slimmer pack of 100cells (200max) and was recommended to order cells that support a 10C rating. This leaves the VTC4, an HD2/4 remaining on my list. I plan to build a 72v pack configured in 20s5p or more parallel groups if I order more cells. At 80A in 5p I would draw 16A per cell. So 20A+ per cell continuous current is a must.

I had considered dropping my voltage down to 66v for 18s, but remembered the reason I settled on high voltage was so I would not have to run high Amps to get full power out of the motor.

Also with the 100A-150A+ currents my battery would support, I planned to put an 80A fuse on the + of my battery.

Also planning to have cells in parallel to be joined with pure nickel, cells in series will be joined by copper wire soldered to the nickel.

Motor and parts:
Cyclone 3kw offered by lunacycle.
ISIS BB and crankarms.
Brake sensor
Cadence sensor
Kelly KBS72121X controller

300w 72v luna advanced smart charger
150A 20s BMS

Questionable parts:
Triple chain ring
Throttle
I think I know what I want here but still would like some input. I was thinking about getting the 44/44T stock chainring they ship in the kit. For these reasons. In lower gear and with this power steep hills should still be okay. In lowest gear I should be able to wheelie no problem. This would also let me get a full twist throttle instead of a thumb throttle, and I could swap the brakes and the shifters to make my bike feel more like a motorcycle.
I also considered the newer 48/48/24T chainring but from what I have read, the 24T gear will flip the bike in almost any gear. The 44/48/32T is probably better for me so I could gain a little torque in the gear ratios over the 48/48/32T, but that motorcycle feeling is really enticing for me.
If someone were to convince me to get a triple chain ring I would probably get a Oro thumb throttle and the 44/48/32T triple chain ring.

If anyone knows this frame I would also like to hear suggestions for mounting the battery and how to build it. I am either going to settle for a large block pack, or I initially wanted to make all my parallel groups then connect them in series around the frame to make a very slim and tight battery pack, but I am concerned about soldering and running 80A 6AWG wire between each parallel group. But it would look so much nicer in the end.

Goals in mind:
Should wheelie with only motor power.
Should hit 40+mph
Should be capable of a 20mi trip. 10Ah min.

I think that's everything. Oh and my one big serious question is how to safely charge in my apartment. I was thinking about making a fire resistant charge box for cheapish, if possible. Mostly I just want some input on my planned build and some help getting genuine cells at a good price.

When I firmly settle on, and order, my cells I will need to hunt down a spot welder too.

Also this is basically my first post here, so I apologise ahead of time if I left anything out or if something is hard to read.

Click to expand...

Yep, robocam is correct, 30 mph cruise and 24 mph average it did mid 40s Wh/mile, on 48V 12S Lipo. So high speed eBikes expect a lot of battery if you want any range at high speed.

G.

I just tried both orientations of my half-link chain, and I found that this is the orientation that allows the widest chainline (least likely to fall off).



If you look at the side plates, they are slanted in a way that guides the chain back onto the teeth if the chain isn't straight. In the other orientation, the teeth will hit the sideplate earlier, since it is closer to the center of the chain.

It appears that in your photo, you have it going in the opposite direction. You can test it by holding the chain in your hand and turning the motor sprocket by hand. Keep pulling the chain sideways until it makes noise or falls off the motor sprocket. I'm curious to see if you will obtain the same result.

Either way though, this is still better than running a regular chain.

DingusMcGee said:

Hi

Robo,

you want the larger end of the gap to hit the tooth first. That way the wider gap will guide the chain onto the link as it narrows.

Click to expand...

I agree with what you say, but I think your picture shows the opposite of what you say?

Here is the half link setup [uncapped chain] on the Big Hit as seen from the top the crank's 48T chain ring. The chain moves from left to right.

View attachment 1

Click to expand...

Some progress on my side...

I can't the PAS and e-brake from Luna to work

Right now I trying to adapt it with Cycle Analysis V3 for PAS and ebrake but having trouble wiring it up.

I am using 52V and the bike want to pop wheelie and flip. 72V maybe bit much unless you have long wheel base.

How many Kms did you run your C3000w at what power/ voltage until the plastic planetary gears broke ? this seems to be coming a more common problem? someone else posted same thing recently:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87790&p=1282208#p1282208

Click to expand...

For those people experiencing plastic gears failures maybe look into upgrading to the AFT carbon fibre gears, saw pics of them here http://www.aft-ebike.com/c3000w.html

They would be a lot stronger then the nylon factory gears??? especially important if you use your bike in the middle of the forest you would want something not likely to break down and leave you stranded lol

Megsy73 said:

How many Kms did you run your C3000w at what power/ voltage until the plastic planetary gears broke ? this seems to be coming a more common problem? someone else posted same thing recently:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87790&p=1282208#p1282208

Click to expand...

For those people experiencing plastic gears failures maybe look into upgrading to the AFT carbon fibre gears, saw pics of them here http://www.aft-ebike.com/c3000w.html

They would be a lot stronger then the nylon factory gears??? especially important if you use your bike in the middle of the forest you would want something not likely to break down and leave you stranded lol

Click to expand...

You really have to go crazy to break the gears, but like Dingus said, it can be done...

I've also heard somewhere (don't recall) that replacing one gear on the planetary assembly with a steel one would probably be sufficient, at least for low RPM operation...

G.

Hi Robo,

Postby robocam » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:14 am

I just tried both orientations of my half-link chain, and I found that this is the orientation that allows the widest chainline (least likely to fall off).

Click to expand...

Yes, I did a thought experiment for the "better" direction for this type of chain [ half link] and you did an actual experiment. Thanks for the thought of setting up the hands on experiment and doing it. I do not remember my criterion exactly as to what I was seeking with my chain direction which is opposite of yours.

My motor chain rings are very close to planar and the roller sleeve keeps the chain snug so there is little issue of chain derailment for my motor chain. But the next question is which chain direction is quietest? I do have a decibel meter but currently I am kind of too busy for that actual experiment. I have already done the thought experiment and think my direction is quieter.

A local bike mechanic did tell me that direction for these chains is very important because one of the chain mounting ways jams [at the rear derailleur? ]up at the rear when wheeling the bike backwards. The motor chain is not in the category of having to deal with derailleurs.

On Sale Today at HobbyKing:


MultiStar High Capacity 12000mAh 6S 10C Multi-Rotor Lipo Pack

$60.20

Reg $103.33

Nice! I've used (still do) the 12000 and they are good batteries.

G.

DingusMcGee said:

On Sale Today at HobbyKing:


MultiStar High Capacity 12000mAh 6S 10C Multi-Rotor Lipo Pack

$60.20

Reg $103.33

Click to expand...

Had my second, out of eight, 6s 16000 multistar get a bad cell. Two separate orders. Was refunded on the first one, had to give photos of all sides of the battery, was over 30 days, no shipping refund as usual. No refund on the 2nd one, was also over thirty days. All under one year old. My point is always buy on sale and get at least one extra if you can, at least for the 16000 ones, might be a good rule for all the multistars though.

Skaiwerd said:

Had my second, out of eight, 6s 16000 multistar get a bad cell. Two separate orders. Was refunded on the first one, had to give photos of all sides of the battery, was over 30 days, no shipping refund as usual. No refund on the 2nd one, was also over thirty days. All under one year old. My point is always buy on sale and get at least one extra if you can, at least for the 16000 ones, might be a good rule for all the multistars though.

Click to expand...

Yes, out of the original 6 I got only one had 1 bad cell, and now out of 10 I've gotten only the same one has had damaged cell; however, it took over 6 months to really develop (and a frozen winter) and I am also not sure if it was due to me running them down near the "cutoff" voltage.
Nowadays I only recharge them up to 4.175 percell and discharge down to 3.8

G.

Greetings, if I mill/ sand the 120mm shaft to where the green line is can I use it in a 73mm BB?

Was going to buy the BBSHD but the Cyclone 3000W seems better suited because I like more power.
Whats this higher powered 4kw Cyclone, even better! Only 4 bills, fits nicely into my budget.
Should start saving a couple hunnies ontop of the dd sale.
More research needed.

robocam said:

[strike]Actually, I feel like you get a lot more than what you pay for with the Cyclone. It's the deal of the decade. Better than any mid drive in this price range. After you install and remove the arms a few times, it will get easier. I guess they could have included bolts that were a couple mm longer without increasing the price, and I don't know why it's taking them so long to provide a decent mount. It could also use a better chain tensioner. But at this price point, I'll try not to complain.[/strike]

The only mid drives I would consider are the BBSHD and Cyclone 3000. If you run a mid drive with a belt, it will break. It's just a matter of when. The BBSHD will feel much weaker than a Cyclone. With the Cyclone, you can be in any gear on your bike and go. With the BBSHD, you have to constantly shift gears. The only real advantage the BBSHD has is its quietness. But there is a way you can get more power out of the BBSHD. You can run it with an external controller.

[strike]I have a Cyclone 3000, a BBSHD and a GNG belt-driven mid drive similar to the LR, but with a 20mm wide belt which promptly snapped when I ran it with the Cyclone's 40A controller. The LR uses a 25mm belt, which isn't much wider. Dingus has snapped an LR belt. The Cyclone is proven to withstand much more as proven by many here including Gman at 90A/72V with a shunt-modded stock controller[/strike].

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1375#p1223967

[strike]Having tried the three designs, I'm building my next ultimate trail bike with another Cyclone 3000, and I'm placing it in the triangle for maximum ground clearance (my BBSHD was constantly catching on roots, logs, and rocks). I chose a square-tapered bottom bracket this time so that I can use the PAS sensor. I don't really see any issue with square-tapered bottom brackets. Not really sure what issues people are having. Maybe heavy people bend them? I'm 180 lbs, and the BBSHD's bottom bracket feels solid to me.[/strike]

Oh, here's another Cyclone offering that's interesting. I'm so tempted to try it out.

-up to 4000 watts
-in frame motor
-170mm rear travel
-can take a tapered steerer
-takes tire sizes 26x4, 27.5x3, 29
-$799 + shipping!!! (introductory price that will end in a few weeks)

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/Coaxial.html

Click to expand...

gman1971 said:

Nice! I've used (still do) the 12000 and they are good batteries.

G.

DingusMcGee said:

On Sale Today at HobbyKing:


MultiStar High Capacity 12000mAh 6S 10C Multi-Rotor Lipo Pack

$60.20

Reg $103.33

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

what capacity are you getting from your cells ? i just ordered 10 6s 12000mah packs to make a 36ah 20s/76v pack just trying to work out my maximum range 99% of the time i wont even use 50% of the pack and wont even charge over 4v/cell unless i need the range

I used to get around 13000 mAh on those 12000 cells; now I run 16,000s only. What range are you speaking of? and at what average speed? pedal or no pedal?

G.

zackclark70 said:

gman1971 said:

Nice! I've used (still do) the 12000 and they are good batteries.

G.

DingusMcGee said:

On Sale Today at HobbyKing:


MultiStar High Capacity 12000mAh 6S 10C Multi-Rotor Lipo Pack

$60.20

Reg $103.33

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

what capacity are you getting from your cells ? i just ordered 10 6s 12000mah packs to make a 36ah 20s/76v pack just trying to work out my maximum range 99% of the time i wont even use 50% of the pack and wont even charge over 4v/cell unless i need the range

Click to expand...

i should get about 100 miles if i stick to 25wh/mile my longest regular ride is only 50 miles so i am more than covered 36ah maximum usable would
be close to 2.7kwh would even get 20 miles + on my beast at max power not sure i could even keep it running that much power as it will do 50mph offroad at 75wh/mile

I used to get around 13000 mAh on those 12000 cells; now I run 16,000s only. What range are you speaking of? and at what average speed? pedal or no pedal?

Click to expand...

So for their $399 2kw-4kw kits they charge $120 for s/h $520USD($658CAD/AUS)

Difference is between 2-4kw and 1.8kw-3kw
650-1.7kw
Those numbers gotta be Nominal (# - #) Maximum

Then theres the crazy 7.5kw and 18kw with BB setup which would rip through any bicycle grade components.

markz said:

So for their $399 2kw-4kw kits they charge $120 for s/h $520USD($658CAD/AUS)

Difference is between 2-4kw and 1.8kw-3kw
650-1.7kw
Those numbers gotta be Nominal (# - #) Maximum

Then theres the crazy 7.5kw and 18kw with BB setup which would rip through any bicycle grade components.

Click to expand...

components can take a bunch more that you would think i have had no issues since i swapped out to stronger sprockets a cyclone 1680 that motor can peak at well over 100nm even before mods even run 200 crank rpm lower torque higher speed has worked well for me it also lets me add an easy 50% power gain just from the extra volts

zackclark70 said:

i should get about 100 miles if i stick to 25wh/mile my longest regular ride is only 50 miles so i am more than covered 36ah maximum usable would
be close to 2.7kwh would even get 20 miles + on my beast at max power not sure i could even keep it running that much power as it will do 50mph offroad at 75wh/mile

I used to get around 13000 mAh on those 12000 cells; now I run 16,000s only. What range are you speaking of? and at what average speed? pedal or no pedal?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

25Wh/mile at what average speed?

G.

gman1971 said:

zackclark70 said:

i should get about 100 miles if i stick to 25wh/mile my longest regular ride is only 50 miles so i am more than covered 36ah maximum usable would
be close to 2.7kwh would even get 20 miles + on my beast at max power not sure i could even keep it running that much power as it will do 50mph offroad at 75wh/mile

I used to get around 13000 mAh on those 12000 cells; now I run 16,000s only. What range are you speaking of? and at what average speed? pedal or no pedal?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

25Wh/mile at what average speed?

G.

Click to expand...

25wh/mile is the average over the last 2000 miles i think the average speed is about 18mph as the bike is restricted to 15.5mph +/- 10% ( reason i can get a higher average is the down hills i can sit at 20-25mph with easy pedaling) 25wh accounts for all the headwinds tailwinds and hills that is with only pedaling down hill i find motor power on flat with motor and human up hill and human only down hill is the best for average speed or a legal bike

my offroad bikes have so much more power but i would never take them into london on the road as its just asking to get busted

How often do London pigs harrass ebikers?

markz said:

How often do London pigs harrass ebikers?

Click to expand...

not often for bikes that are obviously legal / close to legal but i wouldn't want to be on my offroad fast bike as its stupid quick and worth to much to risk loosing i know the chance of them catching me is low and even lower if you factor in i can probably out run them but i cant be bothered with all the trouble i would like to keep a clean motorbike licence and an op ebike can risk me loosing that licence

The 4000 watt coaxial is a brand new design that probably no one here has tried. The motor has a 6:1 reduction just like the Cyclone 3000, but it does not have the secondary chain reduction of 3.38:1, so the final reduction of the Cyclone 3000 is 20.3:1 vs the coaxial's 6:1. It is unknown how this will affect things in real life. It may be no issue for commuters while off-roaders might have an issue with the reduced torque.

Also keep in mind that the coaxial is 4000 watts simply because it is run with a 60A controller. If the Cyclone 3000 is connected to a 60A controller, it too would be 4000 watts plus. You can also easily shunt-mod the stock controller to 90A (at 72V it's around 6500W).

The main advantages of the coaxial motor are the claimed reduction in noise and the in-frame motor design. Not having a secondary reduction chain might also result in an increased reliability because there is no chain to drop. Many have ordered this bike, so I'm eager to hear about their experiences.

markz said:

Was going to buy the BBSHD but the Cyclone 3000W seems better suited because I like more power.
Whats this higher powered 4kw Cyclone, even better! Only 4 bills, fits nicely into my budget.
Should start saving a couple hunnies ontop of the dd sale.
More research needed.

robocam said:

[strike]Actually, I feel like you get a lot more than what you pay for with the Cyclone. It's the deal of the decade. Better than any mid drive in this price range. After you install and remove the arms a few times, it will get easier. I guess they could have included bolts that were a couple mm longer without increasing the price, and I don't know why it's taking them so long to provide a decent mount. It could also use a better chain tensioner. But at this price point, I'll try not to complain.[/strike]

The only mid drives I would consider are the BBSHD and Cyclone 3000. If you run a mid drive with a belt, it will break. It's just a matter of when. The BBSHD will feel much weaker than a Cyclone. With the Cyclone, you can be in any gear on your bike and go. With the BBSHD, you have to constantly shift gears. The only real advantage the BBSHD has is its quietness. But there is a way you can get more power out of the BBSHD. You can run it with an external controller.

[strike]I have a Cyclone 3000, a BBSHD and a GNG belt-driven mid drive similar to the LR, but with a 20mm wide belt which promptly snapped when I ran it with the Cyclone's 40A controller. The LR uses a 25mm belt, which isn't much wider. Dingus has snapped an LR belt. The Cyclone is proven to withstand much more as proven by many here including Gman at 90A/72V with a shunt-modded stock controller[/strike].

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1375#p1223967

[strike]Having tried the three designs, I'm building my next ultimate trail bike with another Cyclone 3000, and I'm placing it in the triangle for maximum ground clearance (my BBSHD was constantly catching on roots, logs, and rocks). I chose a square-tapered bottom bracket this time so that I can use the PAS sensor. I don't really see any issue with square-tapered bottom brackets. Not really sure what issues people are having. Maybe heavy people bend them? I'm 180 lbs, and the BBSHD's bottom bracket feels solid to me.[/strike]

Oh, here's another Cyclone offering that's interesting. I'm so tempted to try it out.

-up to 4000 watts
-in frame motor
-170mm rear travel
-can take a tapered steerer
-takes tire sizes 26x4, 27.5x3, 29
-$799 + shipping!!! (introductory price that will end in a few weeks)

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/Coaxial.html

Click to expand...

Click to expand...