Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
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smeagol222
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by smeagol222 » May 13, 2017 2:22 pm

I finished my modular battery version 1.0! I messed up by charging 4 of the 18650 cells then proceeded to put them all together. I noticed weird balancing differences within the pack. So I dismantled each stack and found the 3.5v cells (others were 4.2v). I charged them up to match the other voltages. +1 for modular battery! Imagine if I had spot welded, heat shrink etc. I would never have known and the pack would be more and more damaged over time.

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The CellLogs are under the plexiglass, perhaps for version 1.1 I'll figure a way to stick them to the underside of the plexiglass and have them all facing the same way to make them easier to read. Also regarding water I think making a cover that fits over the top and cut some drain holes in the bottom of the battery box- although there were no holes when the SLA batteries were in there. Perhaps the seat cover protects agains the rain for the most part. I don't plan to ride in torrential rain.

Anyways each 5S stack has a switch to turn on and off the CellLog. Each stack has main discharge XT150 terminals, XT60 for charging, JST 5S for balancing and 2 female bullets for CellLog output alarm which I'm going to wire red lights up to the front dash on the bike.

Currently I have each alarm set to go off for the below. Is 3.0v a good alarm voltage? Or should it be more like 3.3-3.4v? Obviously I don't want to overdischarge and damage my cells, and if I plan on a big trip I would definitely bring a secondary battery to switch to.

4.22v - over voltage
3.0v - under voltage
100mV - cell difference

Apart from my 72v lifepo4, I have a bunch of 48v batteries which I could use as emergency (have an Anderson connecter wired into the trunk box) obviously I wouldn't have the same performance, but at least I'd be able to make it home (or part of the way).

I put a little handle in the middle, though the holes aren't ideal, seems very sturdy with 4 bolts and able to take the weight

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Here is how it fits in the battery box. After I cut the bar I'll have room for the secondary lifepo4 battery. Going to add some padding inside the box also.
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First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164

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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by smeagol222 » Jun 20, 2017 4:02 pm

I haven't had a chance to work on this for a while, managed to do some minor things. Prepping the smart-charger with bullet connectors, bolting down controller, DC converters, main contactor and shunt for CA. Shunt doesnt look the prettiest (on an angle) but is bolted down quite solid.

Lots of bullet connectors and labelling. I'm hoping to get to a stage where I can "plug and play". Trying to get this as modular and clearly labelled as possible so easy to unplug things and swap out if anything needs replacing etc.

Kelly controller can with only 1 side of deutsch connectors, I didn't want to try and find or spend a fortune on more. Found some 6 pin connectors on amazon, so used them.

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First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164

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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by smeagol222 » Jul 03, 2017 8:21 pm

Well I got it running just connected the 3 wire throttle, smart pre-charger and two 12v dc-to-dc converters. I'm getting some errors.

CA doesn't seem to measure correct max amps. Its showing 220amps or so and my battery max can output 85a, I guess the only real way to find out is measure with ammeter?

Smart pre-charger works fine, but if I turn key off then back on, I get red light. I measure voltage across B+ and B- and controller is getting about 1.5v when smart precharger has red light (error state). I turn key off, then back on, I get green light and precharger works. I hear contactor let voltage through. I have both 12v dc converters wired in before the main contactor. One supplies 12v key switch power to smart pre-charger.
http://www.zeva.com.au/Products/datashe ... erV1-3.pdf

I had an issue where the CA was measuring the 12v since it was connected to PWR 1 from controller which goes to coil of contactor which is 12v (see image). So now I've wired red from CA to main contactor terminal (72v) and it measures voltage correctly. Perhaps this is contributing to the over voltage error?

Issue -- 'over voltage' error 1,2

Issue -- 2,4 error at throttle up.

The voltage is 79.9v or 80v with no load, then like 77v with load full throttle

I get the 1,2 error code which is over voltage error

ALSO

sometimes I get 2,4 throttle error
Throttle error at power-up

My setting for throttle has 3 wires, 1 black, 1 red, 1 green.
red is connected to (7) - 5v output
green is connected to (5) throttle
black is connected to (2) GND
(from manual pdf)
http://kellycontroller.com/mot/download ... Manual.pdf

In programming is 1-4v, with 20% starting 80% ending
low threshold 1%
high threshold 98%

According to pdf manual I need to connect (8) Micro SW, but when I connect to black wire of throttle it doesn't work?

I have not connected e-brakes yet.

There are 2 extra B+ plugs that I've connected that are not mentioned in the manual- see photos


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First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164

pasc2003
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by pasc2003 » Jul 09, 2017 12:06 am

Hello Y have same qs 4000 and same kelly controller on my scooter, very powerfull, y have no contactor and nickel plate on my 20 ah 72v 26650 battery have cuted to high power, , y have installed 10k pot on the signal throttle for reduce power and work great, my next is reprogramming my controller at 50% and change my battery wire by the booster cable.



Good project.
Hello From, Quebec, Canada.

pasc2003
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by pasc2003 » Jul 09, 2017 6:42 pm

ALSO

sometimes I get 2,4 throttle error
Throttle error at power-up

My setting for throttle has 3 wires, 1 black, 1 red, 1 green.
red is connected to (7) - 5v output
green is connected to (5) throttle
black is connected to (2) GND
(from manual pdf)
http://kellycontroller.com/mot/download ... Manual.pdf

In programming is 1-4v, with 20% starting 80% ending
low threshold 1%
high threshold 98%

on my scooter the throttle wire connector is ok at the rear , but at at front in the handlebar y have another connector (same as extension cord from front to rear to controller) on the front at the throttle the color wire is reversed on the connector ( with throttle included with motor and controller by qs the color wire need reversed in the connector)
Hello From, Quebec, Canada.

pasc2003
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by pasc2003 » Jul 10, 2017 5:15 am

y have ordered main contactor and 1k 10w resistor for safety and not blow another nickel strip on battery.

tank-you for your tips in your post
Hello From, Quebec, Canada.

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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by smeagol222 » Sep 10, 2017 11:10 am

Okay I haven't posted in a while very sorry about that. I have been gradually building the bike

What I've done since last post
- Figured out the shunt and amps reading for CA. I won't know real readings until I test ride it (put under real load)
- I thought I needed a solid state relay in order to activate the 12v brake lights without disturbing the circuit for KellyController e-brake. It wasn't working as expected and the SS relay was heating up, I think somehow the circuits were getting crossed. I used a normal 12v relay and it worked perfectly. E-brake cut off power to the motor and engaged the 12v brake lights

Lights
- 2 front LED headlights with LED parker bulbs- this will enable just 'visibility mode' with very low brighness LED's if i have to pass by pedestrians slowly as to not blind them + 2 LED white lighting strips for front.
- High and low beam switch and wiring for the to main headlights
- huge LED bar super bright power mode
- LED signals - 2 front and 2 rear main bulbs I upgrade to LED with some custom plastic and foil reflectors.
- 2 LED signal amber strips on handle bars
- REAR trunk installed with LED running and brake lights. Custom wiring and LED signal strips on side of case. Had to adjust trunk further back to accommodate 2nd passenger.
- Rear LED main tail lights / brake lights with foil (unfortunately the black filter cuts down a lot of the brightness
- Rear LED strip (running, brake and signal LED)
- Rear fender added running and brake LEDs
basically the bike will be seen no mater what
- Still need to cut hole in bottom of trunk to run emergency 10 gauge with andersons for emergency power (I have existing batteries I use for electric bicycles- 52v and 48v that I could use to power this bike in the event I run out of battery with the main ones)

Panelling
- Side paneling I used thin TIN which was very tricky and I don't think I'd to again. Its very sharp and cumbersome to work with. I'm still missing some for the front of the battery compartment. I will have to get another piece and some plastic to connect it to the flooring.
- As you can see with the tin its quite rough, but it was very ad-hoc. I just really want to finish this bike.
- There was a gap but someone could fiddle around with the seat locking mechanism, so I blocked it of with some spare plastic panelling I had, had to use the heat gun to bend and shape it then bolted some parts together.
- The main battery compartment holds both batteries snugly

Dashboard
- I hooked up 4 indicator LED lights for the modular battery. Each one will come on as well as an audible alarm (which wont be heard from battery compartment) but each light will come on when each stack goes below 3.0v or when difference between the cells in each stack is greater than 100mV. Unfortunately I will still need to manually calculate the mV difference between highest and lowest mV between the stacks. I wonder if a solution to this could just be 1 extra cell-logger connected to each of the 4 stacks, it would just be looking at the average between all of them though. We will see
- LED temp sensor with switch. This might sound silly but I'm going to mount this right next to the hub motor so I can measure the temperature of the air near the hub. I didn't want to open up the motor and install one inside. I know that this wont really give me a very accurate reading, but I think its better than nothing. I think probably the air passing by might mess with the readout, I would just pull over and check the numbers to see. I tested by putting it next to my soldering iron and there was quite a noticeable difference

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First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164

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smeagol222
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by smeagol222 » Sep 10, 2017 1:58 pm

TWO updates in one day? haha whats going on?

- installed the alarm inside the dashboard part, some hot glue for the antenna so its up high (apparently getting it clear of other wires helps as well) this thing is LOUD
- wired up the double air horns, low tone underneath, high tone inside dashboard bit. They are hooked up to the 35amp dc converter. Each has its own relay and 20a fuse. I tell you what it sounds like a TRAIN !!!
http://wolo-mfg.com/horns/motorcycle-ho ... d-boy.html
http://wolo-mfg.com/horns/air-horns/mod ... d-max.html
- installed these tiny pedals with mini crank arms (legal reasons)

Considering the amount of make-shift stuff (hot glue, messy cut tin, random plastic panels) I think I'm going to call this bike "Frank" short for "Frankenbike" lol :lol: and I'm totally okay with it. I think the zip ties look like stitches =)

Only thing pissing me off now is the Temp sensor I bought for the CA that I was going to bury inside the modular battery says "plugs into the Cycle Analyst" which it clearly doesn't. Instead looking through the manual I think I'm going to have to open it up and solder wires to the board. I mean I like Grin as a company, but I think they have a long way to go with making their products user friendly. Why not have wires for all options already soldered. If the user doesnt want to use it, just put a heat shrink cap on the end. :x :roll:

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First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164

pasc2003
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by pasc2003 » Sep 10, 2017 5:07 pm

cool

tanks for reply :)
Hello From, Quebec, Canada.

pasc2003
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by pasc2003 » Sep 11, 2017 11:26 pm

good idea , with nissan leaf battery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO08NL_J5vA
Hello From, Quebec, Canada.

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smeagol222
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by smeagol222 » Sep 12, 2017 6:01 am

Yeah I've seen this. I needed a solution that was easily removable and easy so i could carry and charge battery inside apartment. Plus I feel like a modular battery made from 18650's would be easier to repair
First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164

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smeagol222
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by smeagol222 » Sep 17, 2017 12:32 pm

So I finally did the rest of the annoying paneling. This is truly some frankenstein stuff, some tin some plastic. Also took apart the modular battery to change the alarm settings

Hooked up a main plug for the alarm outputs to dashboard and labelled each cell stack

3.5v low voltage
4.1v high voltage
100mv cell difference

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First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164

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smeagol222
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by smeagol222 » Nov 28, 2017 5:45 pm

Sorry for the late update- I have pretty much finished this bike about 1 month ago. Still need to add some paint to the side metal panels and re-position the revers switch (so my keys dont bang against it)

For some reason the modular dash battery lights and temp sensor near the wheel have shat themselves so they need replacing also

I had some issues with programming the kelly controller- what settings to use etc to get correct speed and also if it was giving me the correct amps peak and cont.

Performance is different- take off is a bit slower than my high torque lighter ebike but thats to be expected I guess. I have changed the kelly programming so it does 100amp peak (motor says its rated for 90amp peak or 7kw). I really wonder if my CA is giving me correct reading..I've contacted GRIN and they have told me the settings to use for the shunt I have.

So back to the performance, the power REALLY kicks in at about 40km/hr upwards "once I'm going", I haven't got a top speed yet cause its kinda scary but I think its around 80km/hr

Hydralic disc brakes are soooOOoo much better than the drum brakes on the old ebike project, I actually had a small crash on the old bike because of it- some dickhead cut me off.

Also because of the tread on the tires its quite loud once it gets going, I wondering if I can get some slick tires if it will make any diff.


A better update to come with better quality pics (sorry for the potato quality cameraphone)

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First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164

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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by EddySPalm » Nov 29, 2017 2:29 am

Nice!
It's really good to see you're on the road and enjoying it. I will be in the midst of programming my exact same motor and controller in a few months and might need some of your help... :oops:

Dare I ask you what total battery capacity you ended up with, and do you have an impression of what sort of range you have with it?

Also, I would love to see how the torque arm for the brake is solved on your bike, as I have the exact same bracket with torque arm on min, and I haven't decided 100% how to solve it.

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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by smeagol222 » Nov 29, 2017 8:28 am

I've had advice from many different sources regarding the kelly programming. QS say stock programming doesn't need changing but my CA said otherwise. I think my first ride I had it at 70% and 100% and something cut out, my circuit braker didn't I was thinking it was the battery CA showed about 135amps peak so I backed it off a bit. I always get confused with those percentages especially when it came to battery.

Basically its this section. Max motor current and max battery current. I thought that if you have a battery (I'm going to use my LifePO4 as an example, its 20ah with 60amp cont. and 85amp peak) that if you set "max batter current" to say 50%, you could only get 50% out of your battery (30amp cont, 42.5amp peak). Not only is this wrong, if it did work like that it wouldn't be such simple maths (because of motor ramping and a lot of formulas and science stuff)
Image

Basically the percentages are relative to the CONTROLLER. My KEB controller has
•Peak Phase Current, 10 seconds: 280A.
•Continuous Phase Current Limit: 110A.

So if you apply 50% to this you get 140a peak phase and 55a cont. phase
I still get confused by this because phase current isn't the same as battery current. I've asked the question "whats the difference before but never really got a straight answer. (here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35278)

As for the torque arm for the brake? Do you mean this post?
viewtopic.php?p=1284569#p1284569

This is what came with the "daymak eagle" bike as stock
First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164

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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by EddySPalm » Nov 29, 2017 10:05 am

Thanks a lot for your answer Smeagol :) It gives me a great place to start, and since my battery capacity currentwise will be close to yours, it might even be a good starting point for me.

So what percentages did you end up using then, to restrict the current to 60amp cont. and 85amp peak? I will have mine set at 70A cont. and 130A peak (I imagine). And that is battery current.

Yes, I was talking about the torque arm/bracket in this picture:
torque arm2.PNG
How is it attached to your swingarm, or wherever it attaches to? :) Thanks

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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by pasc2003 » Dec 05, 2017 5:49 am

cycle analyst 2.4 or cycle analyst 3.0 ?

c.a with manual magnet sensor ?

your own shematic and value of shunt ?

same motor and same kelly controller on my scooter

tank-you
Hello From, Quebec, Canada.

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smeagol222
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by smeagol222 » Dec 05, 2017 7:20 pm

I think its CA 2.4

pasc2003 I would love to know what programming you use on it? I was told the motor can only handle 90amp peak? its a 4kw motor but can do 7kw peak. QS motors seem to be overbuilt, I feel like my settings are underpowering it. I reckon that when I tried the max setting 100% 70% and it cut out it was probably the BMS for the lifepo4 pack i have (85a peak). I also have a 100amp circuit breaker, which cuts off at about 135amp I think. I have a no-bms modular 20s10p 35ah battery with LGMJ1 cells to test out, but I dont want to fry anything.

Robert from QS said that the controller I have is correct for the motor (6kw controller) he said "even if you dont program it, should be fine" which sounded to me like "even if its at max settings 70% and 100% it should be fine)

-let me know what you guys think about this

I'm using this shunt from Grin. I have talked to Robbie from there and I have set it up with 0.5mOhm as he advised so I would get accurate reading. At first I thought the CA was lying cause the battery spec said 85amp peak, but he said it can draw more than that depends on how long for etc.
http://www.ebikes.ca/shunt0-5.html

0.5 mOhm external shunt for CA-HC, up to 150A continuous, 400A peak..

I don't use magnet sensor instead I've tried to setup the wheel size and magnet pole pairs. I used one of the wires from the magnet sensor to HALL A on my setup.

look forward to hearing back on what your setup is pasc2003

EddySPalm I will have to check next time i boot up the bike, I think it was around 70% motor current and 50% battery current. Basically I dont really get peak amps at slow speeds. I really want to fix this- my old 1.5kw/3kw peak hub motor project with 45amp controller and shunt mod (extra blobs of solder accross shunt wire) has insane starting torque, but its also a lot lighter etc. plus the motor was wound for torque I'm told and only has a top speed of 45km/hr
First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164

pasc2003
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by pasc2003 » Dec 05, 2017 7:40 pm

smeagol222 , tank-you for reply


http://funecycle.com/e-scooter-dlk/


throttle effective starting = 20% (if under 20% my throttle not work)

throttle effective ending = 100%

max motor current = 100%

max battery current = 20%

control mode = torque

disabled regen brake because personaly not love regen braking

noise reduction = enabled (reduce vibration on start)

boost swith problem = if wire brake input and 5v for activate = my trottle run at 100% never turn throttle (very dangerous)

(need good battery amp curent , because on my 72v, 20ah , 26650 the nickel strip cut and burn, fire)

silicon wire 6awg with anderson connector

1k trim pot on the trottle wire for reduce speed and economy battery (love it)
Hello From, Quebec, Canada.

pasc2003
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by pasc2003 » Dec 05, 2017 7:45 pm

Hello From, Quebec, Canada.

pasc2003
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by pasc2003 » Dec 05, 2017 7:53 pm

hall A # 13 yellow on speedometer wire ? or cycle analyst ?

use cycle analyst speedometer or scooter speedometer?

cycle analyst 2.4 without speedometer magnet sensor ?

actually y use bicycle speedometer , my tire is 130/90-10 and value circunference is 1459 (https://www.ebay.ca/itm/132274975022)


my breaker is original scooter 60A and no problem , but on secondary battery (lithium battery under seat) fuse under 50A blow

on the lead acid 6x 12v 25ah no problem, work pefectly except rapid empty if over 40 km/h if normal only 25ah

max speed y have tried is 105 km-h , lollll , with my electric bike 26 inch 1000 watts max speed y have tried is 75 km/h
Hello From, Quebec, Canada.

pasc2003
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Post by pasc2003 » Dec 13, 2017 7:29 am

Hello smeagol222

your pedaling gear is on right side same as bicycle and your disk brake on left side.

on my DLK my pedaling gear is on left and brake disk on right

y assume in tab one you have enabled forward switch(1) in general setting ?

y have purchased aditional side cover (not brake side = other side) and search idea for fit a freewheel sprocket for pedaling gear (just for canada law) fit sprocket and add lenght on chain.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DIY-Ele ... 262.VmmR4j

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Electri ... 0.0.3mzHY4
Hello From, Quebec, Canada.

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