Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Electric Motors and Controllers
e-vektor
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 46
Joined: Sep 22, 2013 10:30 am
Location: Spain

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by e-vektor » Feb 18, 2017 6:03 pm

fechter wrote:Thanks for the link. Gives me a much better idea.

I've seen some pretty cheap VFD inverters made for line voltage. I wonder if it would be possible to modify one for higher current/lower voltage. It might make the whole setup pretty affordable.
I don't think it is so easy. line inverters normally work with a V/F algorithm, or they use some rough vector control to limit current, but they normally do not have a feedback from speed, and do not have a full model of the motor after a self-tune test (like Curtis does)
also, it is not the same working with 10 Amp RMS than 500 Amp RMS, everything becomes more difficult and critical

For continuing my experiments I bought an used Curtis 80V 550 Amp in ebay for about 650$ as my job does not leaves time for building my own controller, but I think I will do in future

Harold in CR
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1772
Joined: Feb 01, 2010 7:19 pm
Location: Costa Rica

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by Harold in CR » Feb 18, 2017 7:28 pm

Waiting to hear if I have an e-assist motor. Should be out of the car this coming week. Can't report the price because I don't want to make anyone jealous. :shock: :lol:

Been reading about controller building as much as possible, while cutting brush and weeds, building a carport/garage, cutting a couple trees down and into logs and lumber, all with a chainsaw and planer. Pulled a back muscle, so, work is slow. I still want to try to build an AC controller. Hope a few guys join in and make this a reality.

e-vector, keep reporting progress as this is still your thread.
Thanks to Justin, the forum is open source and NON-commercialized.

e-vektor
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 46
Joined: Sep 22, 2013 10:30 am
Location: Spain

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by e-vektor » Feb 21, 2017 3:58 pm

Harold in CR wrote: Can't report the price because I don't want to make anyone jealous. :shock: :lol:
First eassist motor costed about $70 but shipping to Spain and custom taxes where about $300. The next I bought was $120+ shipping and taxes.
It is a really cheap and powerful motor If you live in the USA

By now I am waiting to receive the Curtis 550A (stuck at Customs)

Harold in CR
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1772
Joined: Feb 01, 2010 7:19 pm
Location: Costa Rica

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by Harold in CR » Feb 21, 2017 6:27 pm

Just not wanting to jinx myself. :roll: Should know something soon. Not knowing exactly what is offered in online sales, I can't be sure I know exactly what converter/inverter is in each sale ad. Some say only inverter, some say only converter, some are really inexpensive and some are way more expensive.

I will need to go to USA and see what I am buying. I am wearing out the threads with all the reading.
Thanks to Justin, the forum is open source and NON-commercialized.

e-vektor
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 46
Joined: Sep 22, 2013 10:30 am
Location: Spain

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by e-vektor » Jun 03, 2017 4:19 pm

I has been a while since last post. The mapping for buick lacrosse motor was stopped (efficiency map) as I got some points about 85% and power about 20.5 HP for a not very suitable battery pack (voltage dropping from 74V to 54V during high power test)
But in this while I have started the 2nd phase of the project: building a (dirt) e-motorcycle with this motor, actually the project changed to e-ATV because a frined provided a very cheap chasis of Yamaha Banshee. And here are some pictures:

Motor (13T) and sprocket (66T)
Image

Battery (12 x LIPO 22.2V x 16 Ah 10C: 88.8V, 480A peak)
Image

Sprocket:
Image

Frame (disassembled for painting)
Image

first test (chain is loose):
https://youtu.be/8W0YVO4NULY

Harold in CR
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1772
Joined: Feb 01, 2010 7:19 pm
Location: Costa Rica

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by Harold in CR » Jun 03, 2017 4:48 pm

Looking good. Yes, you need better batteries. Have you driven the atv yet ? Looking for actual results.

Waiting for my crate to arrive with altermotor, controller parts, etc. Started a thread on ecomodder.com about developing a controller for these motors. Looks like a couple of options are available. More info once I get all the brain guys onboard with actual parts in hand.

I have 30S Chevy Volt battery (120V nom @ 45Ahr, in my 3 wheel leaner, but, too many side projects. Once the crate arrives, I will be all over this controller build.
Thanks to Justin, the forum is open source and NON-commercialized.

e-vektor
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 46
Joined: Sep 22, 2013 10:30 am
Location: Spain

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by e-vektor » Jun 03, 2017 5:04 pm

Harold in CR wrote:Looking good. Yes, you need better batteries. Have you driven the atv yet ? Looking for actual results.

Waiting for my crate to arrive with altermotor, controller parts, etc. Started a thread on ecomodder.com about developing a controller for these motors. Looks like a couple of options are available. More info once I get all the brain guys onboard with actual parts in hand.

I have 30S Chevy Volt battery (120V nom @ 45Ahr, in my 3 wheel leaner, but, too many side projects. Once the crate arrives, I will be all over this controller build.
yes, acid batteries are only for the dyno test, but low voltage on high power.
The box for LIPO batteries is ready and the batteries were fitted to check space, but no first power test done.

Inverters: by now only the Curtis 350A is working, the 550A does the self-tune (motor moves) but not starts the motor when using the throttle. It may need a FW update. Where can I find the Curtis Firmware????
Anyway with the batteries charged to 90V or maybe 95V (4 x 22.2V packs) it is expected to have about 30HP with the 350A model, but less torque than 550A model (in the delta configuration)

Ride: no, this first test was only to "reward" myself and encourage myself to continue the project, but next thing was disassembling everything to repair the swimg arm (it has a crack and some wear in one of the tenisioner holes) and to carry all parts for a paint job. This will be done next week.
Then assemble everything, receive the aluminium plate for the Curtis (will be placed in the fuel tank place), but an enduro radiator (small), buy the stirrups (missing), connect the battery.... I guess this will take 2 or 3 weeks as it is only being done in short spare time segments

User avatar
fechter
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 11811
Joined: Dec 31, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by fechter » Jun 03, 2017 6:26 pm

Did you try contacting Curtis for the firmware? I don't see it listed on their web site.

http://curtisinstruments.com/?fuseactio ... 1&langid=1
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

e-vektor
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 46
Joined: Sep 22, 2013 10:30 am
Location: Spain

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by e-vektor » Jun 05, 2017 10:04 am

fechter wrote:Did you try contacting Curtis for the firmware? I don't see it listed on their web site.

http://curtisinstruments.com/?fuseactio ... 1&langid=1
not yet, the 350A model was brand new from the distributor, but the 550A model was from ebay, so I am not sure if they will provide the FW
It can also be some installed VCL program, but I do not know how to access to VCL

udaykishanr
100 µW
100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Jun 16, 2017 10:38 am

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by udaykishanr » Jun 16, 2017 10:55 am

Hello Everyone,

I need your help in using Curtis AC Motor Controller 1236E series. Basic support is appreciated, like how to connect Curtis device and talk to the Induction Motor.

To start with, I am using BAS+ eAssist for one of the applications. I am interested to build a starter/generator for a Vehicle, now then, I am intended to control torque of this motor and have to make it operate at its peak value(Pullout Torque). I found Curtis AC Motor controllers interesting for this job. But I am totally unaware of how to use these controllers. I need help in using these Curtis Controllers to establish a communication between Inverter and Motor. At this point, I don't require any communication with CAN bus. Like I said, my interest is to maintain maximum torque value for some time period. Any input is appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Uday

e-vektor
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 46
Joined: Sep 22, 2013 10:30 am
Location: Spain

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by e-vektor » Jun 16, 2017 4:37 pm

udaykishanr wrote:Hello Everyone,

I need your help in using Curtis AC Motor Controller 1236E series. Basic support is appreciated, like how to connect Curtis device and talk to the Induction Motor.

To start with, I am using BAS+ eAssist for one of the applications. I am interested to build a starter/generator for a Vehicle, now then, I am intended to control torque of this motor and have to make it operate at its peak value(Pullout Torque). I found Curtis AC Motor controllers interesting for this job. But I am totally unaware of how to use these controllers. I need help in using these Curtis Controllers to establish a communication between Inverter and Motor. At this point, I don't require any communication with CAN bus. Like I said, my interest is to maintain maximum torque value for some time period. Any input is appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Uday
does BAS+ motor have encoder or resolver? Most Curtis inverters can handle only encoder. If you have a resolver you will need to convert the signal to pulses with a special (and complex) circuit. Do you need both directions of movement, or just one direction?

ironworker613
1 µW
1 µW
Posts: 1
Joined: Jul 12, 2017 9:55 pm

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by ironworker613 » Jul 26, 2017 8:20 pm

Hi was wondering if someone could help me. I have a BAS alternator from a camry hybrid and it cogs as if it has permanent magnets in it. Can you feel cogging in the ac induction motors? Also what was your solution for converting the resolver signal to an encoder?

udaykishanr
100 µW
100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Jun 16, 2017 10:38 am

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by udaykishanr » Aug 04, 2017 1:31 pm

e-vektor wrote:
udaykishanr wrote:Hello Everyone,

I need your help in using Curtis AC Motor Controller 1236E series. Basic support is appreciated, like how to connect Curtis device and talk to the Induction Motor.

To start with, I am using BAS+ eAssist for one of the applications. I am interested to build a starter/generator for a Vehicle, now then, I am intended to control torque of this motor and have to make it operate at its peak value(Pullout Torque). I found Curtis AC Motor controllers interesting for this job. But I am totally unaware of how to use these controllers. I need help in using these Curtis Controllers to establish a communication between Inverter and Motor. At this point, I don't require any communication with CAN bus. Like I said, my interest is to maintain maximum torque value for some time period. Any input is appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Uday
does BAS+ motor have encoder or resolver? Most Curtis inverters can handle only encoder. If you have a resolver you will need to convert the signal to pulses with a special (and complex) circuit. Do you need both directions of movement, or just one direction?


Hi e-vektor,
Thanks for your reply, the motor is having a resolver. How do I convert the signal to pulses?.
I need movement in just one direction.

Thanks a lot
Uday

udaykishanr
100 µW
100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Jun 16, 2017 10:38 am

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by udaykishanr » Aug 08, 2017 3:22 pm

e-vektor wrote: does BAS+ motor have encoder or resolver? Most Curtis inverters can handle only encoder. If you have a resolver you will need to convert the signal to pulses with a special (and complex) circuit. Do you need both directions of movement, or just one direction?
Hi e-vektor,
Thanks for your reply, the motor is having a resolver. How do I convert the signal to pulses?.
I don't need the position of the rotor, I just need rpm count.
I need movement in just one direction.
Kindly Help!

Thanks a lot
Uday

udaykishanr
100 µW
100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Jun 16, 2017 10:38 am

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by udaykishanr » Aug 23, 2017 12:24 pm

Hello all,

Can anyone help me with this:
The motor (Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator) which I got is having a resolver. How do I convert the signal to pulses?.
I don't need the position of the rotor, I just need rpm count.
I need movement in just one direction.
Kindly Help!

Thanks a lot
Uday

e-vektor
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 46
Joined: Sep 22, 2013 10:30 am
Location: Spain

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by e-vektor » Sep 02, 2017 4:12 am

udaykishanr wrote:Hello all,

Can anyone help me with this:
The motor (Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator) which I got is having a resolver. How do I convert the signal to pulses?.
I don't need the position of the rotor, I just need rpm count.
I need movement in just one direction.
Kindly Help!

Thanks a lot
Uday
I built a resolver to converter card using analog devices AD2S1210 converter chip

https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... wVJsIRn0lw

e-vektor
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 46
Joined: Sep 22, 2013 10:30 am
Location: Spain

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by e-vektor » Sep 02, 2017 4:22 am

New:

I finally got the Curtis 550A controller to work: I had to ask Curtis distributor for the VCL package, prepare an empty project, compile it, upload the firmware... but it finally worked

And I finally got some time to do the final test with 8 LIPO batteries charged up to 96V (arranged in couples to give 32 Ah * 10C discharge)

This is the final result: 36 HP at about 3200 RPM. Nominal RPM is about 2000 RPM with 27.3 HP and a pretty good torque peak of 95 N*m.
From this point torque stars to fall, although power still increases up to 3200 RM.

With these 8 battery pack the voltage drops up to 80V at the power peak. I guess that with 3 LIPO in parallel (12 total) the voltage would drop a bit less and then it would be about 37 or 38 HP, but with these batteries and motor it seems it cannot go farther

Efficiency at the power peak was about 75% (induction motors are more efficient at parcial loads). With a magnets motor like ME1304, controller's delivered power could be the same, but they should achieve 90 or 92% efficiency, and thus power at shaft would be may be close to 45 HP, but I don't think it can be more at this voltage.

Image

Harold in CR
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1772
Joined: Feb 01, 2010 7:19 pm
Location: Costa Rica

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by Harold in CR » Sep 02, 2017 10:22 am

e-vektor, received the board. Thanks.
Thanks to Justin, the forum is open source and NON-commercialized.

User avatar
liveforphysics
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 14448
Joined: Oct 29, 2008 1:48 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by liveforphysics » Sep 02, 2017 2:41 pm

Fantastic work getting it running and impressive output! That's enough to make a peppy LEV.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

udaykishanr
100 µW
100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Jun 16, 2017 10:38 am

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by udaykishanr » Sep 07, 2017 2:47 pm

e-vektor wrote:New:

I finally got the Curtis 550A controller to work: I had to ask Curtis distributor for the VCL package, prepare an empty project, compile it, upload the firmware... but it finally worked

And I finally got some time to do the final test with 8 LIPO batteries charged up to 96V (arranged in couples to give 32 Ah * 10C discharge)

This is the final result: 36 HP at about 3200 RPM. Nominal RPM is about 2000 RPM with 27.3 HP and a pretty good torque peak of 95 N*m.
From this point torque stars to fall, although power still increases up to 3200 RM.

With these 8 battery pack the voltage drops up to 80V at the power peak. I guess that with 3 LIPO in parallel (12 total) the voltage would drop a bit less and then it would be about 37 or 38 HP, but with these batteries and motor it seems it cannot go farther

Efficiency at the power peak was about 75% (induction motors are more efficient at parcial loads). With a magnets motor like ME1304, controller's delivered power could be the same, but they should achieve 90 or 92% efficiency, and thus power at shaft would be may be close to 45 HP, but I don't think it can be more at this voltage.

Image
Fantastic e-vektor,

I finished building my own inverter to run this motor by using a Mitsubishi MOSFET pack. I generated 3 phase signals to these MOSFETs by using a logic circuit which involves a Shift Register.
Now then, The motor is running with a 2nd order fan load.
But, I am confused how to track the torque speed characteristics of this motor.
Could you please tell me how you are doing this? I really like the way you are presenting in a graphical manner. How to arrive at this?
Well, to say furthermore about my application I am working on... I would like to lock onto the peak point of Torque curve for certain time period by using feedback signal from the rotor.
To do this I need to monitor Torque curve of this motor.

e-vektor wrote:
I built a resolver to converter card using analog devices AD2S1210 converter chip

https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... wVJsIRn0lw
By the way thanks for this clue. Will try to dig deep into it. Furthermore information is appreciated

Thanks a lot
Uday

ChazFisher
1 µW
1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Sep 09, 2017 10:19 am
Location: Central Virginia, USA

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by ChazFisher » Sep 09, 2017 12:41 pm

I followed the link from the elmoto.com forum over to this thread. Excellent work, e-vektor! With the star-to-delta conversion, this would be a very affordable option for an electric motorcycle.
Last edited by ChazFisher on Sep 10, 2017 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
parabellum
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1962
Joined: Nov 19, 2010 9:55 am
Location: Dominican Republic, north.

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by parabellum » Sep 09, 2017 9:53 pm

ChazFisher wrote:I followed the link from the elmoto.com forum over to this thread. Excellent work, e-vektor! With the start-to-delta conversion, this would be a very affordable option for an electric motorcycle.
Welcome in ES!
What is the point in delta conversion?

ChazFisher
1 µW
1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Sep 09, 2017 10:19 am
Location: Central Virginia, USA

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by ChazFisher » Sep 10, 2017 2:58 pm

parabellum wrote:
ChazFisher wrote:I followed the link from the elmoto.com forum over to this thread. Excellent work, e-vektor! With the start-to-delta conversion, this would be a very affordable option for an electric motorcycle.
Welcome in ES!
What is the point in delta conversion?
e-vektor talks about it earlier in the thread. But basically, it allows him to drive the same current thru the motor with lower voltage.

e-vektor
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 46
Joined: Sep 22, 2013 10:30 am
Location: Spain

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by e-vektor » Sep 10, 2017 5:12 pm

Actually I work for a company writting software for dynamometers. This research is partial hobby (for the e-ATV), and partial for investigation about the needs of dynamometers when used with electric motors. Torque and Power are the basic variables you get in a dynamometer, even for an inertial dyno (with the suitable amount of mass). For this project I used SP5 DAQ (braked) that also controls an eddy current brake and acquires load cell (torque). This allows me to sweep tests but also stationary tests (rpm constan)
The purpose of a standard dynamometer is normally measuring HP and TQ, but with electric motors I think the next interesting variable is efficiency. For that purpose in some tests I acquired battery voltage and current (Curtis+Motor is considered a black box) and then with the battery power (V*I) and mechanical power (KW) it is easy to calculate efficiency.
This induction motor had a peak of about 86%, but I didn't finish the software for creating a whole map, so I cannot be sure if there is another peak somewhere- Anyway 86% is good for me. And also, keep in mind that when driving the motor to max torque it can decrease up to 65% or so.

And regarding the question about torque, normally with electric motors there is a direct relationship between current and torque. But with induction motors it also changes with slip (difference between mech speed and electric speed), so you will need some dyno if you want to have the resulting torque.

And regarding the graphs, I still have doubts about what is the true nominal speed. According to my calculations it should be around 2000 rpm as stated in the previous post. Indeed as you can see how torque decreases from this point, since the inverter has no more available voltage to follow the increasing speed, then current starts to decrease. But somehow the inverter is able to still increase the power up to 3200 rpm (other motors have flat power at this point), and then it quicly falls in THIS test, but when performing a slow sweep from 3200 to 3700, I can see that the inverter little by little is able to increase AGAIN the torque, and provides a no so deep fall
Another interesting fact: I think the actual TQ graph from 0 to 2000 rpm should be almost flat, but the inverter needs more time to adjust its PIDs, it does not behave in the same way during an acceleration transient

How much Amps can your inverter handle?
udaykishanr wrote:
e-vektor wrote:New:

I finally got the Curtis 550A controller to work: I had to ask Curtis distributor for the VCL package, prepare an empty project, compile it, upload the firmware... but it finally worked

And I finally got some time to do the final test with 8 LIPO batteries charged up to 96V (arranged in couples to give 32 Ah * 10C discharge)

This is the final result: 36 HP at about 3200 RPM. Nominal RPM is about 2000 RPM with 27.3 HP and a pretty good torque peak of 95 N*m.
From this point torque stars to fall, although power still increases up to 3200 RM.

With these 8 battery pack the voltage drops up to 80V at the power peak. I guess that with 3 LIPO in parallel (12 total) the voltage would drop a bit less and then it would be about 37 or 38 HP, but with these batteries and motor it seems it cannot go farther

Efficiency at the power peak was about 75% (induction motors are more efficient at parcial loads). With a magnets motor like ME1304, controller's delivered power could be the same, but they should achieve 90 or 92% efficiency, and thus power at shaft would be may be close to 45 HP, but I don't think it can be more at this voltage.

Image
Fantastic e-vektor,

I finished building my own inverter to run this motor by using a Mitsubishi MOSFET pack. I generated 3 phase signals to these MOSFETs by using a logic circuit which involves a Shift Register.
Now then, The motor is running with a 2nd order fan load.
But, I am confused how to track the torque speed characteristics of this motor.
Could you please tell me how you are doing this? I really like the way you are presenting in a graphical manner. How to arrive at this?
Well, to say furthermore about my application I am working on... I would like to lock onto the peak point of Torque curve for certain time period by using feedback signal from the rotor.
To do this I need to monitor Torque curve of this motor.

e-vektor wrote:
I built a resolver to converter card using analog devices AD2S1210 converter chip

https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... wVJsIRn0lw
By the way thanks for this clue. Will try to dig deep into it. Furthermore information is appreciated

Thanks a lot
Uday

e-vektor
100 mW
100 mW
Posts: 46
Joined: Sep 22, 2013 10:30 am
Location: Spain

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Post by e-vektor » Sep 10, 2017 5:19 pm

ChazFisher wrote:
parabellum wrote:
ChazFisher wrote:I followed the link from the elmoto.com forum over to this thread. Excellent work, e-vektor! With the start-to-delta conversion, this would be a very affordable option for an electric motorcycle.
Welcome in ES!
What is the point in delta conversion?
e-vektor talks about it earlier in the thread. But basically, it allows him to drive the same current thru the motor with lower voltage.
Yes, during the first tests with the star topology I got 15HP at 55V (Pb battery), and recently 20HP at 85V (LIPO), so for having more power you either need more voltage (which makes the inverter more expensive) or you need a lower voltage motor (then you need more current to get the same torque).

Keep in mind that the original nominal voltage is 115 VAC, and it changes to 67 VAC when changing to triangle, then from 67 to 85 V you can get some extra power.

Indeed if I had a 144V inverter I think the motor could be about 60 HP (peak)

Post Reply