new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

ebike11 · Sep 13, 2017

minimum said:
gman1971 said:

What cog are you on when at top speed? My eBike on 3kW hits its 70kph on the 15T cog (8th gear, 10 speed cassette), anything smaller it doesn't go any faster, unless I am on a downhill.

Click to expand...

Last/smallest one. If I counted right it's 14T.

You're likely right about the controller and it's effects on performance. With field weakening enabled it will go even more.

ebike11 said:

Is your bike 26 inch?

Click to expand...

Yes.

Maybe thats where you also got some extra speed. I can only go down to 18T on the cassette before it skips.

Gman..if I do 52T to 34T...big ring to big ring, wouldnt that slow me down since going down on the 18t, 16t and 14t increases speed?

minimum · Sep 13, 2017

gman1971 said:
How hard was to set the halls for the controller? I am thinking about the 8kW one for my trike.

I followed the chart diagram posted here in ES (ES wiki probably). It was a 1st time for me, so it's hard to comment. Around 10-12th time was the hit

With 3kW motors, there's inherent flaw/quirk: hall sensors will pick up a "stray" magnetic flux between magnets. It initially made my motor to "run away" - applying full throttle and releasing it meant that RPM still remained near max range. It's not something you'd want to happen while riding. Trapezoidial controllers (including stock one) are immune to this. That's why AFAIK Cyclone 3k hasn't been paired with Phaserunner or others sine controllers very successfully.

Spent a lot of time debugging and searching for a cause.
There was a YT video from a Russian guy (this forum/topic) who disassembled one motor and tried to get it working with a Kelly sine controller. Unfortunately the video is now disabled/unavailable.
In the video, it was solved by replacing halls. I tried to replace originals to SS41's but that didn't help.
In this post there's couple of screenshots: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=90446#p1318337

In the end I added extra 560ohm pullup resistors as a workaround. So far it has been working. Will try to replace halls to SS413A as those seem to be with lower sensitivity than SS41's.

gman1971 · Sep 13, 2017

Nice, thanks.

Which wires did you use the pullup resistor on? the halls signal wire? Any chance of doing a small napkin schematic? It might be totally worth it doing the work to get a more efficient controller... I opened the motor to inspect coils a while ago, and left the halls as is, but when inspecting I noticed they weren't lined up perfect, so I would think there is a timing issue as well.. who knows...

G.

minimum said:
gman1971 said:

How hard was to set the halls for the controller? I am thinking about the 8kW one for my trike.

Click to expand...

I followed the chart diagram posted here in ES (ES wiki probably). It was a 1st time for me, so it's hard to comment. Around 10-12th time was the hit

With 3kW motors, there's inherent flaw/quirk: hall sensors will pick up a "stray" magnetic flux between magnets. It initially made my motor to "run away" - applying full throttle and releasing it meant that RPM still remained near max range. It's not something you'd want to happen while riding. Trapezoidial controllers (including stock one) are immune to this. That's why AFAIK Cyclone 3k hasn't been paired with Phaserunner or others sine controllers very successfully.

Spent a lot of time debugging and searching for a cause.
There was a YT video from a Russian guy (this forum/topic) who disassembled one motor and tried to get it working with a Kelly sine controller. Unfortunately the video is now disabled/unavailable.
In the video, it was solved by replacing halls. I tried to replace originals to SS41's but that didn't help.
In this post there's couple of screenshots: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=90446#p1318337

In the end I added extra 560ohm pullup resistors as a workaround. So far it has been working. Will try to replace halls to SS413A as those seem to be with lower sensitivity than SS41's.

minimum · Sep 13, 2017

gman1971 said:
Which wires did you use the pullup resistor on? the halls signal wire? Any chance of doing a small napkin schematic?

Soldered directly on the halls' PCB. Outer pins are vcc+ and signal (middle one is GND), so I soldered 1/4W resistor on the bottom/tracks side, so that resistor's body is parallel to PCB edge and leads go aside pins.
Don't have picture but here's a crude drawing:

gman1971 · Sep 13, 2017

I am going to try this, I suspect this could be an improvement even for stock controllers.

Thanks!

G.

flat tire · Sep 13, 2017

Is anyone using higher voltage like 30S RC Lipo for the cyclone? I'm running on 10S RC Lipo right now on the stock controller and it's pretty slow. Waiting to buy a decent controller once I figure out if 30s will be enough. That will let me run a really low reduction and still get decent speed (POWER!). I'm pretty hesitant to try 20S on the stock controller, don't want to get stranded. Maybe I'll open it and replace the caps.

gman1971 · Sep 13, 2017

flat tire said:
Is anyone using higher voltage like 30S RC Lipo for the cyclone? I'm running on 10S RC Lipo right now on the stock controller and it's pretty slow. Waiting to buy a decent controller once I figure out if 30s will be enough. That will let me run a really low reduction and still get decent speed (POWER!). I'm pretty hesitant to try 20S on the stock controller, don't want to get stranded. Maybe I'll open it and replace the caps.

20S is max for the stock controller, anything above that who knows what will happen. 30S will most likely blow the controller...

EDIT: I run 18S and the thing is pretty fast already... even on 12S is pretty darn good, gets me to 42 mph on the eBike on 60A...

G.

markz · Sep 13, 2017

Gotta open it up and see what the caps say.

Slowrider · Sep 13, 2017

Chain line!

So I have come this far with the innstall

I have 3 chain rings that come with the kit. As you can see from the picture the outer sprocket aligns quite well with the sprocket from the motor.

But I thought that the small sprocket from the motor should go to the inner small sprocket on the crank side, then I could use the two outer sprockets with the derailer to the rear casett!
Like it is now I can only use the sprocket from the motor to the outer sprockets crank side then use just the middel sprocket to the rear casett. I do not think I can use the inner as this one is quite small.

The two outer cogs/sprockets (what is the correct term") are 46 and 48.
Hope you understand !

Slowrider · Sep 13, 2017

Some more pictures of the installment;

The motor plate is quite far out on the other side:

But pedals clears on both sides of the motor

gman1971 · Sep 13, 2017

markz said:
Gotta open it up and see what the caps say.

Caps say 80V, but ppl have ran those things on 84V so, it is hard to say.

G

gman1971 · Sep 13, 2017

You should probably talk to Luna about what side plate they sent you, maybe you got a wider one for a wider BB?

G.

flat tire · Sep 13, 2017

The old design (which according to eric I got the last of) used standoffs and spacers to attach those mounting plates so it fit easily on a regular bb. They're totally removed from the motor and attached to an aluminum spacer on the cyclone I have. I had a hell of a time trying to get all the hardware though. God help you to correct the spacing issue. At one point I was told that the motor is for advanced users only and I should have read that (lol). Then I got all the hardware and installed it literally in minutes.

gman1971 · Sep 13, 2017

flat tire said:
God help you to correct the spacing issue.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Slowrider · Sep 14, 2017

Slowrider said:
Chain line!

So I have come this far with the install

I have 3 chain rings that come with the kit. As you can see from the picture the outer sprocket aligns quite well with the sprocket from the motor.

But I thought that the small sprocket from the motor should go to the inner small sprocket on the crank side, then I could use the two outer sprockets with the derailer to the rear cassette!
Like it is now I can only use the sprocket from the motor to the outer sprockets crank side then use just the middle sprocket to the rear cassette. I do not think I can use the inner as this one is quite small.

The two outer cogs/sprockets (what is the correct term") are 46 and 48.
Hope you understand!

Might not be easy to understand what I am after here, but basically, if you have the triple chainring; are you guys running the setup from the motor sprocket to the inner, middle or outer chainring?

Edit:
I have the 44/48/32T chainring.
Also the "new style" motor mounts from Cyclone.

Slowrider · Sep 14, 2017

gman1971 said:
You should probably talk to Luna about what side plate they sent you, maybe you got a wider one for a wider BB?

G.

From one of your yt videos (bike) it looks like you are using this setup: from motor to the outer sprocket, then the two inner sprockets are used with derailer to the rear cassette.
Is this correct?

gman1971 · Sep 14, 2017

Slowrider said:
gman1971 said:

You should probably talk to Luna about what side plate they sent you, maybe you got a wider one for a wider BB?

G.

Click to expand...

From one of your yt videos (bike) it looks like you are using this setup: from motor to the outer sprocket, then the two inner sprockets are used with derailer to the rear cassette.
Is this correct?

Yes, I am still using that setup on the eBike and the eTrikes.

markz · Sep 14, 2017

Slowrider said:
Might not be easy to understand what I am after here, but basically, if you have the triple chainring; are you guys running the setup from the motor sprocket to the inner, middle or outer chainring?

Edit:
I have the 44/48/32T chainring.
Also the "new style" motor mounts from Cyclone.

Which ever one lines up with the motor sprocket, outter crank ring (biggest ring) to motor. Which makes the most sense because you want to be able to shift gears. I still havent quite figured out what gear setup I want yet.

flat tire · Sep 14, 2017

I popped this thing open and it uses S10H16r mosfets rated at 100V. So with 100v caps I hope for reliable operation on 20S while I wait for my powervelocity. Still need to figure out if 20S will be enough or if I should go to 30S.

ebike11 · Sep 14, 2017

markz said:
Slowrider said:

Might not be easy to understand what I am after here, but basically, if you have the triple chainring; are you guys running the setup from the motor sprocket to the inner, middle or outer chainring?

Edit:
I have the 44/48/32T chainring.
Also the "new style" motor mounts from Cyclone.

Click to expand...

Which ever one lines up with the motor sprocket, outter crank ring (biggest ring) to motor. Which makes the most sense because you want to be able to shift gears. I still havent quite figured out what gear setup I want yet.

Are you guys shifting a lot? I find myself not even bothering with the modified 60A controller and the motor which is powerful. Unless its a hill I dont even shift. In my case..0 to 60kph in a few seconds

gman1971 · Sep 14, 2017

ebike11 said:
markz said:

Slowrider said:

Might not be easy to understand what I am after here, but basically, if you have the triple chainring; are you guys running the setup from the motor sprocket to the inner, middle or outer chainring?

Edit:
I have the 44/48/32T chainring.
Also the "new style" motor mounts from Cyclone.

Click to expand...

Which ever one lines up with the motor sprocket, outter crank ring (biggest ring) to motor. Which makes the most sense because you want to be able to shift gears. I still havent quite figured out what gear setup I want yet.

Click to expand...

Are you guys shifting a lot? I find myself not even bothering with the modified 60A controller and the motor which is powerful. Unless its a hill I dont even shift. In my case..0 to 60kph in a few seconds

I am always going back and forth between three gears.

gman1971 · Sep 14, 2017

markz said:
Slowrider said:

Might not be easy to understand what I am after here, but basically, if you have the triple chainring; are you guys running the setup from the motor sprocket to the inner, middle or outer chainring?

Edit:
I have the 44/48/32T chainring.
Also the "new style" motor mounts from Cyclone.

Click to expand...

Which ever one lines up with the motor sprocket, outter crank ring (biggest ring) to motor. Which makes the most sense because you want to be able to shift gears. I still havent quite figured out what gear setup I want yet.

I am running a 44/48/24, drive is 44T, the 48 and 24 are shiftable.

G.

gman1971 · Sep 14, 2017

flat tire said:
I popped this thing open and it uses S10H16r mosfets rated at 100V. So with 100v caps I hope for reliable operation on 20S while I wait for my powervelocity. Still need to figure out if 20S will be enough or if I should go to 30S.

100V caps is then! LOL

However, I advice to get something better if you want more power or speed... I am now ready to take the plunge on that 8kW Powervelocity controller, 30S almost sounds like you'll get electrocuted... 24S is a nice round LiPo number, x4 6s packs

Hoping to hit the 100th page on this thread!! Holy smokes time flies...

G.

ebike11 · Sep 14, 2017

flat tire said:
I popped this thing open and it uses S10H16r mosfets rated at 100V. So with 100v caps I hope for reliable operation on 20S while I wait for my powervelocity. Still need to figure out if 20S will be enough or if I should go to 30S.

Do you mean 100V caps in the stock controller?

gman1971 · Sep 14, 2017

ebike11 said:
flat tire said:

I popped this thing open and it uses S10H16r mosfets rated at 100V. So with 100v caps I hope for reliable operation on 20S while I wait for my powervelocity. Still need to figure out if 20S will be enough or if I should go to 30S.

Click to expand...

Do you mean 100V caps in the stock controller?

Yeah... 100V on the stock controller hahaha, however, now that I think of it, I am not sure if you can spin the motor at 100V tho, as the motor already has stuttering problems at high RPM on mode #3 on 18S, so with 30S it will most likely stutter like crazy... who knows... worth a shot!

G.

new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

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