AVIAN featherweight mid drive

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Ecyclist   1 kW

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AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Sep 07 2017 4:14pm

Couple of years back I visited Japan. That trip was mostly about something called 88 Temples Pilgrimage.
Most of people on that pilgrimage are Japanese and majority do the 1400km loop around the Island of Shikoku by foot.
I decided to do it by bike. It was not easy because Japan is mountainous. Double digit gradient roads are very common and some of them are inside of long tunnels. On that trip I met James, a dude from Australia, who suggested to look at the e-bike option.
After coming back to the U.S. I found ES forum, and, after months of educating myself, I decided to build my own e-bike so I can take it with me to Japan and other places in the world. This thread is about that build. I named my build AVIAN because I would like to be able to take this bike on the plane in its own case, my goal is to keep it under 55lb. including the case. My second goal is to have a very light, single track e-bike.
I made some progress that I would like to share with you.
The build is based on a 2009 Giant Trance X0, Alien RC motor and VESC controller. It is not finished, but is getting there.
Attachments
AVIAN 1.JPG
AVIAN 1
AVIAN 1.JPG (157.08 KiB) Viewed 8265 times
AVIAN 2.JPG
AVIAN 2
AVIAN 2.JPG (139.16 KiB) Viewed 8265 times
AVIAN 3.JPG
AVIAN 3
AVIAN 3.JPG (161.31 KiB) Viewed 8265 times
Last edited by Ecyclist on Sep 08 2017 10:50am, edited 1 time in total.
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by MadRhino » Sep 07 2017 7:43pm

Neat mounting. Looks good.
Small motor, how much power?

Battery is alway a problem when you plan to fly (double meaning) :wink:
What are your plans?
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

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Ecyclist   1 kW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Sep 07 2017 8:42pm

MadRhino wrote:Neat mounting. Looks good.
Small motor, how much power?

Battery is alway a problem when you plan to fly (double meaning) :wink:
What are your plans?
Thanks.
It is a 3200W motor but I'm not going to push it over 2400W. BTW I can install up to 8072 6000W motor to that reducer and pull that bike apart. Just don't feel like doing it yet. 500/14 Rohloff might not like it either.
I already designed solder/spot welder free case and am planning on buying 18650 cells at destination or ship cells by sea and pop them in.
Attachments
Battery pack 1.JPG
Battery pack 1.JPG (143.02 KiB) Viewed 8233 times
Hex cell 2.jpg
Hex cell 2.jpg (83.94 KiB) Viewed 8233 times
Last edited by Ecyclist on Dec 29 2017 11:43pm, edited 2 times in total.
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

12-C   100 W

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by 12-C » Sep 07 2017 9:15pm

Beautiful build!

Really nice work with the battery setup!

I'm guessing you have access to a mill ? :D

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Ecyclist   1 kW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Sep 07 2017 9:22pm

12-C wrote:Beautiful build!

Really nice work with the battery setup!

I'm guessing you have access to a mill ? :D
And then some. :D
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

flathill   100 kW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by flathill » Sep 07 2017 10:02pm

Cool battery pack!

Are the holders/connectors made of aluminum? If so what about oxidation? Aluminum oxide is a insulator. I guess you could sand before assembly and hope it stays air tight...

Maybe you know this and they are nickel plated copper? :)

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Wolfeman   100 W

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Wolfeman » Sep 07 2017 10:53pm

Wow, just freakin wow.....
Trek 4300 w/ H3580 Crystalyte at 3600W
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=82738
Worksman Mover M2020-3CB w/DD 750W front hub
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=96873
Dyno Moto 7 BMX Cruiser w/BBS02
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1467001

ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 08 2017 12:57am

Great Work,

I have had the same Idea for about a year or so now, I just do not have the Machine Shop to do this myself.
( I Bought a Frame a year ago but just got around to building it up, since I finally see some improvements in regards to DIY Mid-Drives )

I have been wondering how to use a RC motor with a Infineon or Infineon Clone Controller, so as to use a Cycle Analyst to do easy Voltage and Amperage Limit's .

Would that motor work with an Infineon controller ?

What is the KV of the Motor ?

Are you going to be operating it with 5s pack or 10s pack, ... or is that a 6s x 10p Pack ?
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

Rube   100 W

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Rube » Sep 08 2017 4:52am

Wow, amazing work. Your battery construction deserves its own thread. Interested to see how you mount the pack. Any lessons or thoughts about your battery design? Would you change a future iteration? cheers

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Ecyclist   1 kW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Sep 08 2017 10:01am

flathill wrote:Cool battery pack!

Are the holders/connectors made of aluminum? If so what about oxidation? Aluminum oxide is a insulator. I guess you could sand before assembly and hope it stays air tight...

Maybe you know this and they are nickel plated copper? :)
Thanks!
Yeah, these are aluminum and earmarked for electroless nickel plating.
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

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Ecyclist   1 kW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Sep 08 2017 10:03am

Wolfeman wrote:Wow, just freakin wow.....
Thanks dude. You made my day.
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

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Ecyclist   1 kW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Sep 08 2017 10:11am

ScooterMan101 wrote:Great Work,

I have had the same Idea for about a year or so now, I just do not have the Machine Shop to do this myself.
( I Bought a Frame a year ago but just got around to building it up, since I finally see some improvements in regards to DIY Mid-Drives )

I have been wondering how to use a RC motor with a Infineon or Infineon Clone Controller, so as to use a Cycle Analyst to do easy Voltage and Amperage Limit's .

Would that motor work with an Infineon controller ?

What is the KV of the Motor ?

Are you going to be operating it with 5s pack or 10s pack, ... or is that a 6s x 10p Pack ?
I recommend VESC or RC controller for a RC motor.
The motor is 125Kv.
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

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Ecyclist   1 kW

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Location: San Diego, California

Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Sep 08 2017 10:28am

Rube wrote:Wow, amazing work. Your battery construction deserves its own thread. Interested to see how you mount the pack. Any lessons or thoughts about your battery design? Would you change a future iteration? cheers
Thank you.
You need to be really careful with these cells. Steady hands or welding goggles are at premium. 8) :D
This is my third rev. and I think that for 6P it will work OK.
After I install it on the bike and put it through real life situations I will be able to tell more.
For now I only used it for testing the motor with my transmission on a fluid exercycle.
I will build more compact 4P for single tracking and short range.
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

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cal3thousand   1.21 GW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by cal3thousand » Sep 08 2017 12:02pm

Umm... I'm really glad that I clicked your link. Wasn't sure what to think based on the name and TOTALLY did not expect to see that battery setup.

I would absolutely love to hear anything you would care to share about the construction, design and manufacture of that beauty.

Seems like you may have also designed your own motor mounting as I have never seen one of those on offer before.

Subscribed in the hopes of learning more about your creations!
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

Planning on posting questions or buying anything on this site? Put up your country (at minimum) on your profile. This is a worldwide forum and we haven't reached clairvoyance.

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Ecyclist   1 kW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Sep 08 2017 6:11pm

cal3thousand wrote:Umm... I'm really glad that I clicked your link. Wasn't sure what to think based on the name and TOTALLY did not expect to see that battery setup.

I would absolutely love to hear anything you would care to share about the construction, design and manufacture of that beauty.

Seems like you may have also designed your own motor mounting as I have never seen one of those on offer before.

Subscribed in the hopes of learning more about your creations!
I'm glad you did.
It would be very hard for me to write about everything I build. I doesn't look like much, but just the transmission was a big project in itself. So if you have a specific question, just shoot it my way and I will do my best to answer.
You are correct about the motor mount. Giant bikes have goofy rear shock linkage so I had to come up with something that works. That was the price I was willing to pay in order to have ample space in a triangle of the bike. I can fit everything in that space. These brackets are very short. Short mount makes for a very rigid structure.
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 08 2017 6:25pm

Is that regular bicycle chainring on the outside of the crank that has the chain to the motor ?

Regular bicycle sprocket on the motor ?

8 or 9 speed chain/chainrings and sprocket up front ?
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Ecyclist   1 kW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Sep 08 2017 6:44pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:Is that regular bicycle chainring on the outside of the crank that has the chain to the motor ?

Regular bicycle sprocket on the motor ?

8 or 9 speed chain/chainrings and sprocket up front ?
No, these are BMX 7075 aluminum chainrings. Both are 104 BC. The outside is 42T and inside 44T. The transmission is running 20T right-hand EXCESS freewheel with backing plate.
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

sephespid   100 µW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by sephespid » Sep 14 2017 12:20am

Wow, amazing. subscribed
It looks like bobc's lazer cut cycloidal gearbox. I need this type of gearbox. Compact and simple.
But I think there is a problem of protecting the motor from water or mud.

anttipaa   10 W

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by anttipaa » Sep 14 2017 5:02am

Wow this looks very good. Are you going to sell those gearboxes? How much does that gearbox weight?
Canyon Torque DHX + Cyc X1 Pro

Rouckie   10 W

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Rouckie » Sep 14 2017 6:23am

I'm also very interested in the gearbox. Could you show some more details of the internals? Is it something I could duplicate (I also have a cnc).

thank you

SlowCo   100 kW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by SlowCo » Sep 14 2017 8:51am

Subscribing to see if you'll share more on the internals of the gearbox as well. Great little machine!

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Ecyclist   1 kW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Ecyclist » Sep 14 2017 7:49pm

I designed and built the hypocycloidal transmission based on three different Sumitomo transmissions that I bought and studied. Sumitomo makes industrial type of transmissions, which are not restricted in size and shape. I had to rethink the whole thing for the bike use.

@SlowCo Next week I will have some free time and I will take the transmission off the bike, weigh it and take a couple of photos.
Below, I posted a photo of the first revision of my transmission. The one on the bike is rev.3.

@Rouckie You will need CADCAM and second software to design cycloidal shape. From what I understand, you can use Solidworks for everything but it is very expensive.

@sephespid If you cut cycloidal shape with laser, you will get a rattle box. Sumitomo uses profile grinders to get a perfect shape. CNC milling is barely acceptable. I'm not worried about the motor too much. E-sk8s have these motors mounted couple of inches off the ground and can live with that. Worst case scenario, I will swap it with Astro Fight inrunner. No problem.

@anttipaa At this point my focus is on building mid power super light e-bike for myself, but I might make a short run of 10 to 20 units once I get positive singnals from the community. The time will tell.
Attachments
Trany 1.JPG
Hypocycloidal transmission rev.1
Trany 1.JPG (135.58 KiB) Viewed 7753 times
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

Amiran   10 W

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Amiran » Sep 14 2017 10:20pm

Crazy stuff.
Great thread.

Mongo1   10 mW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by Mongo1 » Sep 15 2017 12:01pm

Brilliant work!!!

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: AVIAN featherweight mid drive

Post by neptronix » Sep 15 2017 12:15pm

That is cool as hell. Too bad it's a one-off.
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