Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

zzoing said:

What's interesting is the 2nd market for EV's... If the lifespan of the cars is above 500,000km, up to 1-million kilometer second hand EV's can be bought and sold. that's a radical change for the entire planet. the car market will be only 1/2 as many cars in 2050 as it was in 2020.

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strange logic ?..."IF" cars last longer, how would there be any less of them on the roads ?
The only way to reduce car numbers is to reduce ownership...and that is a completely different dynamic to vehicle condition.
What will encourage fewer cars through the reduced need to own a personal car, will be the adoption of "autonamous" cars, ...that can "serve" multiple people ecnomicaly.
But they need not be EVs !
Also, there are plenty of current ICE powered cars that cruise through 500+k kms !

If I am reading both the quote and your post correctly, you're both talking about different things.

Number of cars on the road (what you are talking about) doesn't equal the car market (what zzoing is talking about in the quote). The number of cars on the road could remain the same, while the car market drops, if existing cars stay on the road longer.

Ah yes ...fair comment.! :wink:
But like i said..modern.ICE's have a 25+ year life already.
But it will probably be like the computer or smart phone market... built in obsolesence, !
Perfectly good functional pieces of hardware made obsolete by revised software or lack of tech/sofware support.

Frame typically lasts 10 - 12 years in our part of the world without some added protections and routine washing out of road salt.

Aluminum or galvanized steal typicality solves that.

speedmd said:

Frame typically lasts 10 - 12 years in our part of the world without some added protections and routine washing out of road salt.

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Same issue for ICE or EV .....until they stop using cheap steel and non existant protection systems.
The areas that seem to give up first seem to be interiors (seats, carpets, door and dash trim etc), and ancilliary electrical kit ( AC and steering pumps, door locks, window motors, dash electronics, etc) ..and i cannot see those reducing with EVs
Anything can be replaced or repaired, but fewer folk seem to want to bother with the cost or hassle of that these days

GM has tested it's motors to 600,000 miles, and the highest mileage chevy volt is 400,000 miles without noticeable battery degredation, a car from 2012.

Tesla is aiming for 1 million miles on it's new drive trains, that's just mental!!! 1,600,000 kilometers car engine.

What does that mean for new and used car sales? Yes there would be more cars on the roads, In dry climates some of them would have a million miles on them and still be worth a good price for resale.

Tesla model S is 100% aluminium, the only steel in the it is the control panel which acts as a shield for the driver. The underbody of the tesla model S can't rust.

? So you think aluminium doesnt corrode ?
..Oh , and the "S" isnot 100% aluminium, ...it has high strength steel reinforcement at critical strength points .
Apart from the running gear, Which can ( is) often be replaced relatively easily and cheaply on ICEs, any car with even a few hundred thousand miles on the clock is by definition "well used" , ...look at any typical taxi cab.... and unless exceptionally well cared for shows its age inside and out.
With the average car mileage at about 15k miles/year, a car with even just 500,000 m on the clock will ikely be over 30 yrs old

Hillhater said:

? So you think aluminium doesnt corrode ?
..Oh , and the "S" isnot 100% aluminium, ...it has high strength steel reinforcement at critical strength points .
Apart from the running gear, Which can ( is) often be replaced relatively easily and cheaply on ICEs, any car with even a few hundred thousand miles on the clock is by definition "well used" , ...look at any typical taxi cab.... and unless exceptionally well cared for shows its age inside and out.
With the average car mileage at about 15k miles/year, a car with even just 500,000 m on the clock will ikely be over 30 yrs old

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Generally true it would take a very long time to reach 500k or a million miles.

But perhaps not with a car that drives itself autonomously, and almost never sits parked unless charging from running its own autonomous Uber-style program vs sitting idle in a driveway.

Has anyone come across any critiquing of Li2CoP2O7 ?
http://www.fujitsu.com/global/about/resources/news/press-releases/2017/0227-01.html

memy said:

Has anyone come across any critiquing of Li2CoP2O7 ?
http://www.fujitsu.com/global/about/resources/news/press-releases/2017/0227-01.html

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i've not heard of that.. great find!

lithium cobalt pyrophosphate sounds particularly explosive.. :lol: gimme some!

Its a solid so much safer in general, but very promising at some 30% more energy density. They are talking 1.5 times in the article. Nice looking topping off characteristics. Should be much easier to not over charge given the capacity voltage graph which it looks to have very robust charging allowances on the top end.

The big lithium companies have chemistry characterization labs where they get samples from all the good performing prototypes from around the world and do their own measurements on them, to make sure that they don't get outdone by another company. For the moment they think LiPo is the best and are going full steam with them, limited at 290Wh/kg with 3500ah 45g batteries. If a durable powerful solid state ceramic/composite battery arrives the auto industry will have 4 billion dollars of battery fabs to build from it. This year there will probably be a lot of gigafactory announcements in a new market trend based on 288Wh/kg LiPo's, and there is a 20 million dollar prize for the first guy who presents a 320Wh/kg car battery they are putting all numbers into supercomputers to identify new materials, the safe LiPo has gone up 25% density since 2007.

My mistake, not just the instruments are held on with steel, the frames and door surrounds of the Model-S are either mild steel or 2 layers of mild steel and a hard steel. The side impact bars are hefty aluminium.

We can expect a divergence of cosmetic and mechanical ageing of EV's based if it's a family or executive or a company car. Cars don't get thrown out because they look sketchy if they roll! the future will have messed up knocked around cars everywhere still rolling The prices of used car motors will be less than the price of copper, so 200 dollars for an EV power train, we won't know what to do with all of them. The batteries will have a giant re-use market, perhaps selling to solar power companies so the price of used EV's may never be lower than 5000 dollars because of the battery.

^^ Hehe... "Location: Fr SE"? `Bit "vague" while you also said in Feb, 2008 "I live in the UK"

(and BTW also said "lifepo4 = 1700 cycles = 5+ yrs... nice..." in 2008...)

So. Now "sold" on lithium-polymer? Recall, I think that maybe "stuff" needs to be built as "idiot-proof" (knowing the "human condition"). Doncha thing "safe LiPo" a bit of an oxymoron? Just curious.


(Hi from the colonies! ... Canada, eh?)
L

LockH said:

^^ Hehe... "Location: Fr SE"? `Bit "vague" while you also said in Feb, 2008 "I live in the UK"

(and BTW also said "lifepo4 = 1700 cycles = 5+ yrs... nice..." in 2008...)

So. Now "sold" on lithium-polymer? Recall, I think that maybe "stuff" needs to be built as "idiot-proof" (knowing the "human condition"). Doncha thing "safe LiPo" a bit of an oxymoron? Just curious.


(Hi from the colonies! ... Canada, eh?)
L

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"LiPo" , aka lithium polymer, is just a misnomer from decades ago when the first lithium pouch type cells that actually used a gel polymer electrolyte. They had terrible C rates and poor mechanical robustness and substantial cost penalties to mfg, and never saw mainstream production or use (for many good reasons). No EVs use or have used "LiPo" or "lithium polymer".

What many use are lithium ion cells that rather than being rolled up and stuffed in a can are instead sealed into a flat foil pouch, that happens to externally visually look similar/identical to the defunct decades old cell tech that also used to be sealed into pouches.

Nissan claims there has never been a single Leaf battery fire, and it runs large format pouch cells and has experienced a lot of miles with a lot of leafs getting crashed/totalled badly. Pretty impressive for car tech developed in ~2009.

^^ Ah HA... ""LiPo" , aka lithium polymer, is just a misnomer"... So. Any "better" desc. for lithium chemistry cells d'you think? Li-Packs?

Gold nano-wires and gel electrolyte has over 200,000 charge/discharge cycles "in the lab" (vs 3,000-ish for Lithium ion)? If perfected, these obviously expensive batteries might last a lifetime.

I know the thought of using gold as a basic material for a large portion of the mass of a battery is ridiculous (unless you are NASA, charging by solar), but if this phenomenon becomes better understood (if it's even real), then it could lead to dramatically increasing the life of any daily-cycled batteries without using gold. If it can be done with silver, even THAT would be a dramatic reduction in price and availability. There is a lot of research going on with zinc-based and sodium-based batteries, so...any progress in these gold batteries might transfer over...

The last paragraph mentions that nickel might work as a less expensive substitute.

http://www.popsci.com/researchers-accidentally-make-batteries-last-400-times-longer

LockH said:

^^ Ah HA... ""LiPo" , aka lithium polymer, is just a misnomer"... So. Any "better" desc. for lithium chemistry cells d'you think? Li-Packs?

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They are all lithium ion cells, but some are pouch cells and some are cylindricals, but could be made from identical anode/cathode materials, separator and electrolyte, just arranged in different geometrkes.

Pouches tend to use available space slightly better, generally have lower current collection losses and lower Inductance and impedance, and lower thermal resistance than cans, but cans are drastically less steps to manufacture making them lowest cost per amount of energy stored and involves lowest mfg overhead required to make high volume and high quality.

That said, the right solid electrolyte improvements are likely to eliminate can cells mfg cost advantages and is likely to eliminate the jellyroll style can cell as well as as the pouch cell as we know it today.

spinningmagnets said:

Gold nano-wires and gel electrolyte has over 200,000 charge/discharge cycles "in the lab" (vs 3,000-ish for Lithium ion)? If perfected, these obviously expensive batteries might last a lifetime.

I know the thought of using gold as a basic material for a large portion of the mass of a battery is ridiculous (unless you are NASA, charging by solar), but if this phenomenon becomes better understood (if it's even real), then it could lead to dramatically increasing the life of any daily-cycled batteries without using gold. If it can be done with silver, even THAT would be a dramatic reduction in price and availability. There is a lot of research going on with zinc-based and sodium-based batteries, so...any progress in these gold batteries might transfer over...

http://www.popsci.com/researchers-accidentally-make-batteries-last-400-times-longer

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The protective cathode coating over the spinel coated gold nanowire is perhaps more of the cycling advantage than the gold, but I'm sure gold is a great stable current collector material. You're right that the same coatings may also help cells that don't use gold nanowires to survive.

Now wondering if there's any ES threads on the "best format" for Li-ion cells. Hehe... My vote? For cells that can be water-cooled ie a "can" shape rather than foil packs that would need separators to permit flow of liquids? Also, a fan of "most easily" repairable/upgrade-able. (Watt again makes me think of some "standard" size/shapes like the newer 21700s, etc.) ALSO would prefer threaded bolt terminations with nuts to screw down spade etc termination etc wire ends. :wink:

Hiya LockH, how's it going, yes i was in the UK, and then we rented a house near Lyon in France, and the UK house price is about 3 times higher so we stayed, France has more land and planning permission anarchy. Et je suis Français bien sur. There is a Euro school with 9 languages in Oxford, beside the nuclear fusion building. We learnt that Europe is fun but totally random and mental and that germans are very hard workers and italians know lots of swear words.

Yes people were using radio control LiPo from HobbyKing in 2011. Did you get one of them?

I love the nanoparticle and gold and diamond new technology announcements Someone's going to have to license technology for 1 billion batteries to VW and Audi and BMW this year because they want to emulate the model-S sales figures, so we will have to build a gigafactory in Europe, and they will announce which kind of Litm they will use for the euro factories and german cars. Do you think they will use panasonic?

Say that the average family saves $50,000 on gasolene when it is phased out, do you think the money will go into infrastructure and health and schools? do you think that citizens will keep that money or do you think that economics will lower their wages?

A French philosopher said that the elite classes tried to buy out the working classes in the 1950's and 60's with socialism, health and welfare concessions, because of the threat of communism... He said, because there are less communists today, that the 1 percent are going to try to quash all the welfare and socialist rights that became norms in the 1950's. he said... unless a new ideology changes that oh cool.

Hi zzoing, "Hiya LockH, how's it going"? Hehe... Oh oh... Sorta long story that I've actually written about a bit on ES as "The life of the peripatetic ebiker":
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53101

Mes compétences en français sont horribles!

"germans are very hard workers and italians know lots of swear words." Hehe... and the French wave their hands a lot when they speak. [Kidding!] Even though I think of the european cultures as "mixed together" somewhat, here in Toronto (big "town" now 6+ millions) we're HUGELY "mixed up" with neighbourhoods "for the"... [insert nationality here. Korean, Italian, Greek, countries in Africa... all over.] One good thing? Some of them like to cook. Hehe... So can stay in Toronto and "eat the world". Tomorrow, maybe have Mexican.

You know, none of this has ANYTHING to do with "Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases"? So will "cut off" this tapping and continue... later as a "PM"/private message.

More on Solid State electrolyte tech..

A123 Systems invests in solid-state battery technology company Solid Power
14 September 2017
A123 Systems LLC, a developer and manufacturer of advanced lithium-ion batteries and systems, has invested in Solid Power Inc., a developer of solid-state battery technology. Solid Power’s technology combines an exceptionally high capacity cathode with a high capacity lithium metal anode in combination with a high ionic conductivity solid separator. The battery materials are 100-percent inorganic and possess no flammable or volatile components.
The Solid Power batteries provide substantially higher energy than conventional lithium ion (2-3X greater) while also enabling lower cost systems due to the potential for eliminating many of the costly safety features typically associated with lithium-ion systems.
Solid Power’s technology has been recognized as a game-changer by several global automakers and the investment from A123 will help power the ongoing development of the company’s cell manufacturing strategy.....

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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170904-a123.html

^^ Groovy. ESB "Search found 32 matches: +"solid power" ", but not THAT Solid Power re their battery work:
http://www.solidpowerbattery.com/

8) "a spin-out company from the University of Colorado Boulder"

That seems like a move in the right direction as the existing A123 cells pretty much suck for energy density.