Limiting power down to legal levels

There is no power limit specified in EN 15194, so there's no test you can do to verify that it complies. The only requirement is that your have a 250w motor (max), so the only test they can do is check the motor label. To comply with EN 15194, your bike must have a label that says that the motor is rated at 250w, the name of the manufacturer and the maximum speed.

The old rule in Austrslia was a maximum output power of 200w, which could easily be tested, but I bet not a single bike sold with a 200w label would pass that test as that would require a controller limited to around to around 7 amps max at 36v or 10 amps at 24v, both of which would be absolutely useless.

e-beach said:

An inexpensive liner taper potentiometer spliced into the return wire (often the white wire) from your throttle will do the trick. No amp problems doing it that way. One side of the wire to an outside post, the other side to the middle post. Play with it until you find the setting that works for you.

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Cheers!
Something like this?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Fre...lgo_pvid=a75273f8-b7ad-4b39-a873-4238c4b5545f

d8veh said:

There is no power limit specified in EN 15194, so there's no test you can do to verify that it complies. The only requirement is that your have a 250w motor (max), so the only test they can do is check the motor label. To comply with EN 15194, your bike must have a label that says that the motor is rated at 250w, the name of the manufacturer and the maximum speed.

The old rule in Austrslia was a maximum output power of 200w, which could easily be tested, but I bet not a single bike sold with a 200w label would pass that test as that would require a controller limited to around to around 7 amps max at 36v or 10 amps at 24v, both of which would be absolutely useless.

Click to expand...

It seems what the legislation says and how it is enforced are different things. From my understanding now:

1. As long as you have a 200w( throttle) or 250w( no throttle) you can put as much juice as you want through the motor. (Seems kinda crazy but hey)

2. However, should the cops pull you over they could take your bike and test the power at the back wheel, if you are over the legal limit then you get fined.

Perhaps you could win in court if you had a 250w motor generating 500w at the back wheel ?
If you were going close to 25km/h the 250w sticker may be enough but obviously if you are going 50km/h you are probably going to get tested and will have to fight your case.

3. For those of us with motors over the limit (not many I am sure :wink: ) it is good to know that we can limit our power down and pass an engineers test and probably get off even though technically according to EN15194 we cannot have a motor over 200w/250w.

Some discrepancy between the law and how the cops enforce things ! Who would have thought....Not in Australia!

If this shit keeps up we will soon need a license to own a water pistol!

Yea something like that. If trimmed down, is will simply cut the return from about 5v when WOT to something less there-by reducing the throttle signal to your controller and keeping the amps from your motor. A three position switch will do the same, but they have set positions. If that kind of a setup works for your local police then here is a picture showing the wiring I was referring to.

barbs00 said:

Thanks, So you can't just press a button or 2 and switch between power levels?

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No,you have to unplug the LCD then plug the box in.
My plan if I get stopped is to turn the motor off then tell them I have to plug the precharge box in before I can start the motor.
Can't see anyone who would know what i was really doing.

KINNINVIEKID said:

barbs00 said:

Thanks, So you can't just press a button or 2 and switch between power levels?

Click to expand...

No,you have to unplug the LCD then plug the box in.
My plan if I get stopped is to turn the motor off then tell them I have to plug the precharge box in before I can start the motor.
Can't see anyone who would know what i was really doing.

Click to expand...

Good to know - thanks!

e-beach said:

Yea something like that. If trimmed down, is will simply cut the return from about 5v when WOT to something less there-by reducing the throttle signal to your controller and keeping the amps from your motor. A three position switch will do the same, but they have set positions. If that kind of a setup works for your local police then here is a picture showing the wiring I was referring to.

Click to expand...

Lovely - thanks!

Will this work for the PAS also?

barbs00 said:

......Will this work for the PAS also?

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If you are asking "Will the pas work with a pot inline on the return voltage of the throttle?" The answer is yes because they are on different circuits on your controller.

I was thinking a bluetooth enabled controller that you can set default power level on for when the controller is first turned on. If you want to increase the power, you need to use an app on your phone to set a higher amp limit.

So you get pulled over, you turn off the bike. If the cops take it and turn it back on they get 10A or whatever you set the default to.

They give you back your bike and they go away, you pull out your phone and make your bike fun again.

e-beach said:

barbs00 said:

......Will this work for the PAS also?

Click to expand...

If you are asking "Will the pas work with a pot inline on the return voltage of the throttle?" The answer is yes because they are on different circuits on your controller.

Click to expand...

Yes - I should have been more clear

I guess what I meant to ask was will adding the pot inline on the return voltage of the throttle also limit the PAS to 200/250w or whatever you set it to?

I guess the answer is no since they are on different circuits?

dustNbone said:

I was thinking a bluetooth enabled controller that you can set default power level on for when the controller is first turned on. If you want to increase the power, you need to use an app on your phone to set a higher amp limit.

So you get pulled over, you turn off the bike. If the cops take it and turn it back on they get 10A or whatever you set the default to.

They give you back your bike and they go away, you pull out your phone and make your bike fun again.

Click to expand...

Yes I think this a a great option

barbs00 said:

e-beach said:

barbs00 said:

......Will this work for the PAS also?

Click to expand...

If you are asking "Will the pas work with a pot inline on the return voltage of the throttle?" The answer is yes because they are on different circuits on your controller.

Click to expand...

Yes - I should have been more clear

I guess what I meant to ask was will adding the pot inline on the return voltage of the throttle also limit the PAS to 200/250w or whatever you set it to?

I guess the answer is no since they are on different circuits?

Click to expand...

Isn`t that what the EggRider is all about?

Yeah Tommie - the eggrider app will do it although it is not available yet. This way is easy and cheap though!

I am still waiting on a reply email from them.

I think the Bafang controller will remember the last setting you had in should you unplug the LCD. So hopefully if you are in street legal mode and the cops take your bike (and you keep your phone) it should pass testing. Not 100% on this - I hope the egg guys answer soon.

Re Eggrider?

Did they run out of money?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/608108780/eggrider-an-advanced-smartphone-app-to-control-you?ref=7qqv6b

£820 pledged of £10,000 goal
15
backers
Funding Unsuccessful
This project's funding goal was not reached on May 4.

Interesting!

Still no reply from them...maybe they are finito ?

How about using a creatively hidden reed switch to activate full power using a hidden magnet on your person?

[youtube]ol3DhxvrNaM[/youtube]

Blue tooth activation would also be good. Perhaps a code could be sent by your phone to the controller each time you turn the bike on.

Reed switch.....hmmmm. They are delicate but it could be done simply. Say one puts a resistor inline on the return wire from their throttle. The resistor will hard limit the throttle return voltage. However if a reed switch is placed so that when it turns on, via a magnet, it jumps the resistor and the throttle could go full throttle, it could work.

Ha, Sneaky....I like it!

The only issue it it won't limit the PAS so you may not pass a test

i'm wondering when ppl will start to understand that there is no "200W rated" motor. the BIKE can be rated 200W, but not the motor alone. it's the combination of motor, controller and battery that determines how much power the rear wheel will see. an electric motor per se can take unlimited power for a very short period of time. putting a 15kg DD drive in your rear wheel, adding a 36V lead acid battery and a 250W (7A battery current limited, 25km/h) controller will give you a perfectly legal 250W bike.

and therefor i doubt that any legislation anywhere around the world has any other way to determine the bike's power, but to put the bike on a dyno. easy as that.
would a "250W" sticker fool anyone? maybe yes, probably not. would a legally (250W) crippled bike become illegal if you put a "1000W" sticker on it? no way.
you can put rally strips on your car, and it will not become more powerful just by the "agressive" look it has.

so the only way to deal with it, is some kind of hidden switch. it depends on the time the engineer, who checks the bike, is willing to spend, to find the switch. adding a BT device, hidden in the motor controller, or a reed switch inside the handle bar, that gets activated once you touch it with your "magnet added" gloves, may be a good way. but it can be found if looked for it long enough.

the only save way would be to "destroy" the controller cpu/mcu so it can't be tested. no way to tell what the bike was capable of at the time you rode it.

izeman said:

i'm wondering when ppl will start to understand that there is no "200W rated" motor. the BIKE can be rated 200W, but not the motor alone. it's the combination of motor, controller and battery that determines how much power the rear wheel will see. an electric motor per se can take unlimited power for a very short period of time. putting a 15kg DD drive in your rear wheel, adding a 36V lead acid battery and a 250W (7A battery current limited, 25km/h) controller will give you a perfectly legal 250W bike.

and therefor i doubt that any legislation anywhere around the world has any other way to determine the bike's power, but to put the bike on a dyno. easy as that.
would a "250W" sticker fool anyone? maybe yes, probably not. would a legally (250W) crippled bike become illegal if you put a "1000W" sticker on it? no way.
you can put rally strips on your car, and it will not become more powerful just by the "agressive" look it has.

so the only way to deal with it, is some kind of hidden switch. it depends on the time the engineer, who checks the bike, is willing to spend, to find the switch. adding a BT device, hidden in the motor controller, or a reed switch inside the handle bar, that gets activated once you touch it with your "magnet added" gloves, may be a good way. but it can be found if looked for it long enough.

the only save way would be to "destroy" the controller cpu/mcu so it can't be tested. no way to tell what the bike was capable of at the time you rode it.

Click to expand...

But the issues is probably more likely one of simply dealing with a LEO. In that case, a "1000W" sticker may get you a citation and a "250W" sticker may help you avoid one. Appearances matter. I've read the accounts here in Phoenix of e-bikes getting cited because the "e-bike" is a commercial product that looks like a moped. In our neck of the woods, it appears that I can break our current laws (can't go past 20mph or else you are a MoPed and require registration and I think insurance) with regularly if I appear to be a more or less "regular" bike and don't ride at high speeds in a way that is likely to attract attention. OTOH, I can be perfectly within the law and get hassled regularly if my appearances are confusing to LEO. Appearances seem to matter.

So in the end what is important is to understand what the LEOs in your area are likely to do. That will inform you of what you can get away with and what you probably need to do so that you are likely to be considered compliant - whether you are compliant or not.

Personally, I think the laws based on motor power and speed capability are wrong-minded. I think speed limit based laws make much more sense. It is an area that LEOs should be relatively comfortable judging and it tries to regulate behavior, which is probably more important when it comes to safety, traffic flow, and the interaction of pedestrians, bikes, e-bikes and motor vehicles. After all, cars are routinely registered that have motors capable of travelling well past legal limits in the majority of locations. The cars are perfectly legal. What matters most is how they are operated. A similar approach should, IMO, be adopted for e-bikes. Any power limit set should be well above what is needed to operate at allowable speeds - probably 2-3 times the power generally required for a given speed. That will allow the e-bikes the ability to deal with wind and hills and to accelerate reasonably to get to their legal speed limits.

i agree. fake pedaling, and slowing down in crowded areas, looking behind you once and then to check for cops is a clever idea.
i was talking about a "real" check. putting a 250W sticker may help in case a cop sees your parked bike somewhere and is just over busy. if all looks ok from a first sight they may let you go 90% of the time.
if you are unlucky enough to have an accident (maybe with human casualties) the will double check your bike. therefore your pre cautions can't be good enough.

I'm not sure restricting the throttle input on most controllers will help pass a dyno test anyway, as most of them are "Speed" controls rather than "Current" controls. You can restrict the speed setting by using a pot/inline resistor with switch, etc but the controller will still apply whatever current it's set for to attain that (lower) speed. So putting it on a dyno and hitting the throttle will likely still measure too high of a wattage.

If you can set the controller to "current" throttle mode (which the Bafang is capable of, but usually not set to by default), and calibrate your restrictor correctly, this method may work, but setting the controller itself to a lower (legal) amp limit on power up seems more reliable to me. Doing it with bluetooth eliminates the possibility of your "hidden" switch/pot being discovered.

izeman said:

if you are unlucky enough to have an accident (maybe with human casualties) the will double check your bike. therefore your pre cautions can't be good enough.

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Agreed. Being involved in an accident is a whole different thing. I guess I wasn't even thinking that way because the last car/bike accident I had was when I was 12 and door-posted a VW bug that passed me and turned right directly in front of me. The driver lost a chrome trim strip off her door and I learned a lesson about automobile drivers. Since then, no such accidents or even close calls really (discounting drivers that pass too closely.)

e-beach said:

Reed switch.....hmmmm. They are delicate but it could be done simply. Say one puts a resistor inline on the return wire from their throttle. The resistor will hard limit the throttle return voltage. However if a reed switch is placed so that when it turns on, via a magnet, it jumps the resistor and the throttle could go full throttle, it could work.

Click to expand...

It is slightly more complicated but quite a bit more durable to do the same thing with a hall effect sensor.

izeman said:

i'm wondering when ppl will start to understand that there is no "200W rated" motor. the BIKE can be rated 200W, but not the motor alone. it's the combination of motor, controller and battery that determines how much power the rear wheel will see.

Click to expand...

We all understand what "rated power" means. What people misunderstand is how it applies to the regulations.

The motor always has a rated power. It's often stamped or labelled on the motor. The 200w limit in Australia is not rated power, it's maximum output power. In UK, the 200w limit was indeed rated power, the same as it is now, but now 250w.

The only power regulation in EN 15194, which is the standard that applies in Australia, Europe and some other countries, is on the "rated" power of the motor. You're correct that it has no bearing on the power of the bike, but there's no regulation on how much power the bike uses or produces. That means that it doesn't matter what shows on any dyno because every power is allowed. We can argue all day about why it's like that, but that's how it is, fortunately.

There's also a limit on voltage specified. It says "up to 48v", but that is also very specific. Does it mean up to a 48v system that can go to 54v, or does it mean 48v absolute limit, so 11S max?