Q100 - Q100H - Q100C - what is the difference?

Hi guys,

I'm looking to buy a stealthy commuter bike and I'm looking at the Cute motors over at BMSBattery, but I am confused what is the difference between them. It doesn't help that some have drawings attached, some have power curves, but not all have both; bottom line is I find it hard to compare. BTW I'm targeting 36V/201RPM winds with a custom 50V+ 14s1p LG HG2 DC-limited at 10A and with 150W-ish contribution by the legs.

Let me know how wrong I am:
*Q100 is the baseline with a 135mm droput. Single stage reduction. With 36V/201RPM wind @50V it should do road legal 16mph
*Q100H - a 2-stage reduction Q100, which makes for 30% more reduction/torque. Same identical size as Q100. Can give a decent boost on a 50V battery over the Q100
*Q100C - this one is harder for me to understand. Is it just a Q100H with a smaller active length (lam stack) that fits in 120mm droputs? Power/torque is similar to Q100, but having 2-stage reduction compensates for the smaller size

Then there's the Q128 series, same variants: vanilla/H/C. I don't think I need a Q128, but basicaly the 3 options are similar to the 3 for the Q100 just bigger and more powerful?

Thanks in advance. I spent my last 3 evenings geeking out on the lams discussion and a bunch of other threads. Great forum 8)

I only have experience with the Q100c CST. with a wind of 201 rpm. I am also using 14 s battery pack with it. and sometimes a 12s battery pack.

The c , and the CST , just means that it has a cassette freehub body, on other words it will accept the standard Shimano/Sram / Suntour Cassette ( up to a 10 speed I will explain later how if you are going to put over 9 speed cassette on it )

From what I have been told the C ( CST ) version has a little less power, or is that just less torque ?

I often see up to 500 + watts being put through my Q100c CST for short periods of time like when going up steep hills. my little 48 volt controller( not sold at BMS Battery ) has a max 15 amps draw +/- 1 amp.

I am getting up to 20-22 mph with the 201 rpm version , in a 700c wheel ( 32 spoke hole Q100c CST motor ) ... when on Flat Roads where there is no head/side wind .

The Q100c CST , in either 32 spoke hole version is 135 mm wide.

Paris does have hills from what I have seen on the TV ( travel programs and TDF , and a few Movies ) so getting the 201 Rpm version would be best, you could even lace it into a 27.5 rim ( 650 b ) for a little better incline climbing ability.
But if you have very steep hills , perhaps the Q128 would be better , though heavier, or get the Q100 h and a good 9 speed freewheel from Sunrace ( see my first build thread with my Mac motor , using the 8 speed freewheel , on a Womans MTB .
Sunrace also makes good 9 speed freewheels as well, built for the E-Bike market )

Let us know if you are going up any hills, how steep and long they are. you could get by with the slightly less powerful Q100c CST .

drebikes said:

Hi guys,

I'm looking to buy a stealthy commuter bike and I'm looking at the Cute motors over at BMSBattery, but I am confused what is the difference between them. It doesn't help that some have drawings attached, some have power curves, but not all have both; bottom line is I find it hard to compare. BTW I'm targeting 36V/201RPM winds with a custom 50V+ 14s1p LG HG2 DC-limited at 10A and with 150W-ish contribution by the legs.

Let me know how wrong I am:
*Q100 is the baseline with a 135mm droput. Single stage reduction. With 36V/201RPM wind @50V it should do road legal 16mph
*Q100H - a 2-stage reduction Q100, which makes for 30% more reduction/torque. Same identical size as Q100. Can give a decent boost on a 50V battery over the Q100
*Q100C - this one is harder for me to understand. Is it just a Q100H with a smaller active length (lam stack) that fits in 120mm droputs? Power/torque is similar to Q100, but having 2-stage reduction compensates for the smaller size

Then there's the Q128 series, same variants: vanilla/H/C. I don't think I need a Q128, but basicaly the 3 options are similar to the 3 for the Q100 just bigger and more powerful?

Thanks in advance. I spent my last 3 evenings geeking out on the lams discussion and a bunch of other threads. Great forum 8)

Click to expand...

All Q100's(rear) will fit 135 m/m dropouts.
All Q100's use compound(stacked)gear-sets, 2 sets of 3 gears.
The following are my opinion from inspecting most variants of the Q100. Some are "educated guesses"
All Q100's have the same windings in terms of # of turns ratio.
Different "motor speeds" are a function of different gear ratios. Although the actual ratios vary from model to model over the years, there are basicaly 3 speeds, low-speed (201 rpm @ 36V), mid-speed(260 rpm @ 36V) and high-speed(328 rpm @ 36V). The low-speed and mid-speed numbers are more or less actual, the high-speed falls into the 290-300 rpm range.
To make room for for the cassette spline, the "C" model uses a rotor approx. 30 % more narrow than the std. and "H", which results in approx. 15 to 30 % less power handling capacity
The H model can handle 15 to 30 % more power than the standard Q100, probably due to higher grade (Neo)magnets.

As w/ any mini-motor, the relationship of motor speed, wheel size and desired over-the-road speed is important, as these will always be a compromise between climbing and top speed. The mid-speed motor suits most riders best in a big whl. bike. The C model is not available in a mid(260)speed. The 201 and 260 H models can be fed almost enough power(1,000 Watt range)to climb most hills. The single most important "rule", is to Never let the Climbing Speed fall below Half of the Top Speed. At approx. that speed, more energy is being converted to heat than motion and the motor can be damaged. If hills are to be encountered, it is better to run a higher rated controller, say a 17 Amp model instead of a 10. While this may seem to be counter-intuitive, the reason is, a more powerful controller will hold the climbing speed above the "1/2 speed" rule longer.
Hope this helps.

Ok, thanks. It's a bit clearer. I also found a nice article at the ever useful Sheldon Brown about freewheels and cassettes:
http://sheldonbrown.com/free-k7.html

To come back to the Q-s:
*the H has better magnets than the vanilla, thus better torque
*the C has a cassette freehub integrated
*they all have 2 stage reduction integrated (I found some more threads about how the Q100 evolved from 1-to-2 stage)
*the 128s are bigger and more powerful than the 100s
*they all fit in 135mm rear dropouts

If all of the above are true it looks like it's between the Q100H and Q100C. My donor bike is based on an 8 gear Shimano Sora, not the highest end groups and since this bike is helped up the slopes by the Q-s, probably I won't need any more than that anyway - so then, it's more of a preference - should I go for a freewheel and extra torque or cassette and less torque? I'm leaning towards the torque, more is better

As to the hills, the longest on my commute are two very similar hills of about 5% slope and half a mile long. Just the other day I went up on my 9C-16mph-limited at just under 16mph. If you're wondering why do I want to change, the reason is the 9C equipped bike is quite heavy and can't do much more than 18mph on leg-power, while on a regular road bike I can hold 20, but bog down on climbs.

If all of the above are true it looks like it's between the Q100H and Q100C.

Click to expand...

That is usually the choice, as there are not any drawbacks to the "H" models and that makes the standard models seem superfluous.
Pro's of the "H" models;
More Power. The H will absorb more Current, into the low 20's Amps, where "hammering" can start to be felt. 20A X 48V is pretty safe. Upping the Voltage on the Cute has diminishing returns and that tack is best left to the DD motors.
The newer "soft start" sine wave controllers and even the square waves from Elifebike reduce the hammering effect and protect the gears.
Con's of the H model;
1)More expensive. Assuming the ebike will reach at least 20 mph, an 11T sm. gear is needed to make assist pedaling to be relevant(A 48T or bigger frt. chainring helps too). There is only one free wheel that has an 11 T sm. gear, the DNP and it's about $30 to $40 in the States and is a little harder to locate in the UK.
2)Heavier, the DNP is a real chunk
Pro's of C model;
1)Less cost, existing cassette is used.
2)Slightly smoother shifting, a function of a decent cassette vs an aftermarket free wheel.
3) Lower power handling forces the rider to pedal more Controller rating should be kept around 15 Amps.
Con's of C model;
1) Wheel "dishing" and fitment. Depending on the bike, as they are all different, the C, can be difficult to fit. Because everything is shoved over to make room for the deeper cassette, some dishing is required to center the rim and the C's avail. today have been redesigned to reduce the off-set. It's really impossible to say ow much of a hassle might be encountered. I tried to make a C fit my Rocky Mountain 2WD and could not get it to work, but w/ my IDrive, everything more or less fell into place.
2) No mid-speed(260) version avail. This is a biggy, as the compromise mid-speed is the best motor speed for the majority of riders

Bottom line;
The DNP has a bad rep., but the latest ones I have used are quieter and smoother than past models.
You are correct in your assumpsion that not many gears will be used under power. With the lower power C system three or four gears will be the max. W/ the H, even fewer. So, unless the build and rider is focused toward serious road bike, there is not much to recommend the C over the H. And then there is the lack on a 260 speed motor that will need some sort of work-around.
I.M.O., the 260 H in a 26" to 700cc wheel makes for the best overall Q100 based system.

Thanks motomech, we're getting there.

I'm thinking I may keep the ebike as legal as possible, so ideally the controller will have an option for a "legal mode". If I get over 16 it'll be just because I pedalled; normally I don't really any assistance above 16. The fact the 200RPM@36V wind could do over 20mph unlocked on a 50V battery is just icing on the cake, if I'll ever use it.

My current 9C/Infineon setup from EM3EV can change between 3 speed maps and I flashed a slow/legal/nolimit setup. I hope whatever controller I'd put on the Qs I'd have some tweak-able speed-limit capability; also Paul's controllers can limit AC current (thus torque) which prevents overheating on slow speed/high incline situations - this is also something I'd like to keep having. Thirdly, the Infineon can also limit DC current - I don't need it on the 9C setup as the battery can take 40A, but the new lightweight Q-system will have a 14s1p of LG HG2s, and these don't like much above 10A.

Anyway, the inverter is another discussion, maybe it needs another thread. I'm set on a 200RPM/36V @50V Q100H

Thanks

I don't know about all that legal mode and inverter stuff because we don't even think about it here.
My other bike uses a 201 C in a 26" whl. on 44 Volts. It tops out around 18 mph and has just enough power to climb hills. It feels pretty slow after I get off my other bike, but at least it forces me to pedal. If I wanted to go only 16 mph, I would sinply leave it the second speed range on my 3 speed controller. Do the Police there really know the details of Ebikes that you have to get all fancy to be "legal"?

I don't think police know one way or the other, but in case of a serious crash I can see the insurers trying everything to weasel out as anything above legal is considered a motorcycle and needs special insurance.

Your bike looks neat, very clean. It hardly looks like an ebike. I'm half thinking, if the shipping makes sense to buy a q128 too, just to be covered. Maybe I'll just sell it afterwards if I don't need it.

Your speed calculations are a bit off, though you didn't say your wheel size. Using a 26" wheel, the 201 rpm Q100 does about 15 mph on the road with good power up to about 12mph that then ramps down to zero at its maximum of about 18 mph. The 260 rpm one is 30% faster, which is the same as running the 36v 201 rpm one at 48v. The 328 rpm one is 30% faster again than the 260 rpm one, but it doesn't have much torque or efficiency at low speed.

If you want 36v, which gives better opportunities for lighter batteries, then the 260 rpm one is good. You can go to about 18 amps at 36v, to get a good 500w at the back wheel.

If you fit an 8-speed freewheel gearset to a Q100H, it becomes very wide and the rim needs a bigger off-set to stay central in the frame. 7-speed or less is better. The Q 100C is also quite wide. It's not 135mm, so you will need to spring your frame a bit and off-set (dish) the rim.

I can't see any point in running any of those motors at 50v unless you already have the battery left over from another project.

Hi d8veh,

There are a few things missing, yes. Here's the full setup as I see it now:
*28" wheel on probably a 700Cx23C - I may go for a 28C rear if the 23C is unconfortable
*the bike I mean to use has a wide spaced 8 gear shimano sora group; I tested a 10 speed SRAM equipped wheel if it fits in the frame and it does, but I'd have to change the cahin to fit the thinner spacing; I'm hopeful even 142mm would fit, but if the current 8 speed doesn't fit, I'll just get a 6/7
*the target duty cycle is the strava below - on the non-ebike 28"er I do 58mn; on a 26" equiped 9C in the strava run I'm just over 50mn. I don't get as much benefit as I could from the ebike becasue the bike is heavy enough that my legs can't push if far above the electronic limited 16mph.
https://www.strava.com/activities/1212834332/shareable_images/map_based?hl=en-US&v=1507014483

Basically for 80% of the commute I'm at 16mph; I only need assistance for two steap hills and a few lesser ones. If I could get good assistance on hills and yet the bike isn't quite as heavy, I'm thinking I may lift the average speed by 2-3mph, which may reduce my commute by a few minutes. The current bike is 27kg, the next may be just uner 20kg.

I already have a 14s5p with 22F-s battery on my current ebike, but I'll be building a 15s1p (or 14s1p) 25R setup for the new one. Getting a 36V/200RPM wind would lift it to 260RPM@50V (or thereabouts) - in the region of 20mph loaded speed - that I could help along to 25mph or so.

Let me know if it makes more sense. You helped me along on the 9C setup may years ago and it did the job perfectly

Drebikes,

Did you mean to say you have a 29er , not 28 " ?

23c tires are very thin, many people are now using 25c or 28c on non e-bikes, I do not know how much more speed you will get out of a 25c tire compared to a 28c tire,
and if you do have 29er rims then the inside rim width would probably dictate a 28 c or wider tire anyway.

As far as getting a 201 speed and running it on 14s battery pack, I do that already, on a 700c wheel with 32 mm wide tires , and max speed is usually 20 mph, very lucky on day with no wind to get up to 22 mph on very smooth road.

Those who know these little motors better than me are saying that the H model of the Q100 has more torque, not more speed , if I read correctly.

So to get to 25 mph is going to be hard, you will need a 53 tooth outer front chainring .

are you using Mountain or Road Crankset ?.

Interesting about 8 speed freewheel not working without having to add spacers to the axle / spread the rear triangle . Perhaps that is because most are using DNP Freewheels, I use the better Sunrace Freewheel you can see a picture of the box and model number on my build thread . ( link located just under any post I make titled " My First Conversion ").

If it is necessary to spread the frame it would not be much, there is only a few mm" difference between a 7 speed and 8 speed freewheel, just use a spacer/washer on the axle on both sides, that is easier than changing out the shifters and chain.

Hi scooterman, I was reading your thread, nice ride.

Now the bike I'm converting runs on 700x23c. I thought in American numbers it's a 28inch, looks like I'm wrong and it's a 29? The highest crank ratio I have is 48x13 and yes at 25mph it spindle very quickly. I can do that and keep it up for a while, it's high bursty torque that kills me. Basically for short punchy hills when I go to work I'd rather have a bit of help.

If on a 14s it does 20, I'm sure I can help it a bit above. Even with the current heavyweight I push it on feet power alone from 16 to about 18 and keep it there about two hours max. With the race bike I'll be converting I do 20 unassisted; on the same flats I struggle to more than 18 on the heavy 9C - but keep in mind any ebike will be limited to 16mph assistance.

It's a bit hard to explain, but basically it fells the 9C Mtb is overkill. Something lighter could do the same job, 16mph/10Adc limit notwithstanding. The 100h may be the ticket, with the winding that gives the most possible torque and speed just above max legal

Here in the U.S. a few years ago the bike industry made 29 inch wheels , thought to be a fad by some , it does turn out it is good for tall riders , like riders over 6ft 2-4 inches and taller.

For many of us it felt awkward , so the bike industry made 27.5 inch wheels, also known as 650 b , not to be confused with the old school 650 c . For many of us it feels better , more like a 26 inch wheel with better roll over objects and when up to speed . It fits us in the " Mediium " body size category better than 29 er wheels.

26 inch wheel Mountain Bikes bikes are now being sold to people who have a Small or X-Small bike frame.

Many people found out that many of the road tires for 700c bikes would work with 29 er rims. However the width of a 29 er rim is a little wider than Road 700c rims so the same people found it best to keep the width wider as well , like 28 mm 32 mm , etc.

Since you are wanting more speed, and the motors are cheap , but the shipping is not, you might want to get a Q100 H 201 rpm, and a Q100 H 260 rpm hub . not knowing the hills where you live , I would opt for the 260 rpm one. even on 14s. since you say you are always riding around 20 mph anyway . from what others have said who own the 328 rpm ones , you want to keep the speed up when using the faster speed ones.

In other words I would start off with the 260 rpm one and use the 201 if the hills are too steep and for too long.

And change out your front two chainrings , like to 52 tooth or 53 tooth on the outer one. it is easy to find your crankset's BCD , to order new chainrings.

Once you have built one of them up to a 700c wheel, you can just swap out the inner part to try the other.

Not a bad idea. I will get two Q100H of different speeds and just see which one suits better. If it wasn't for this 16mph speed limit, the 260 would be a clear winner.

Thanks

Haven't used a Q100 t all.
For reference my 201 Q128C @36V can happily toot a long at 18 - 22mph on 700c 622 x 35c tyres.

hemo said:

Haven't used a Q100 t all.
For reference my 201 Q128C @36V can happily toot a long at 18 - 22mph on 700c 622 x 35c tyres.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that the 201 rpm Q128C is actually 260RPM. It matches exactly the speed of the 260rpm Q100s.

For 16 mph, you need 260 RPM, which means a 260 RPM motor at 36v or a 201 RPM at 48v. This is because the 260rpm motor makes its peak power at about that speed. Power ramps down after that.

The Q128C is more robust, fits better and takes your cassette. the penalty is an extra 1kg.

The Q100H is a freewheel motor, so you have to deal with crappy freewheel gears and dishing the wheel a lot more to save 1kg.

The Q100c takes your gears, but is wide, so tighter to fit in your frame and it needs a bigger dish in the wheel.

Dragos: I would (and do) use 32mm tires (or as close to it as will fit). 23mm tires actually have more rolling resistance (and less traction) than a tire in the 28-32mm range. The larger tires are so much better in every way.

Higher speed motors tend to work better with 700c wheels as compared to 26” wheels because the bikes (& tires) are so much more efficient. I use a 328rpm on my 700c bike, and a slower wind on my mountain bike. Power curve should be similar – go to the ebike.ca simulator and play around with speed/and current to go simulate what you want.

My bike on 32mm tires weighs about 13kg. so, it is quite easy to ride with no motor (see the thread in my sig). Most people cannot really add anything to the top speed of the motor because:
- The bikes are heavy and often don’t’ have the best tires/wheels
- As speed increases, the motor speed falls off faster than you can make up for with leg power.
And yeah, a decent road bike should be able to do more than 16mph with no e-assist.

FYI, at 25mph on a Q100 I have a 53t x 17t chainring/freewheel. Or a 44t x 14t. Keep in mind that 3 teeth on the chain ring roughly equals 1 tooth change on the freewheel.
Your 48t x 13t is 83rpm at 25mph. That is pretty reasonable.

By the way 328rpm does spin at 328 rpm. I measured it.

Looks like you have up to a 10% grade for about 2 minutes (half a mile) and keep a steady 14mph up the hill.

In the US we might call a 700c wheel a 28 or 29 inch wheel. It’s a cluster. They are both 622mm wheels. Old school people might call them a 28inch, if they are new mountain bikes we call them 29 inch. Kinda dumb. Then you have the old 650b wheel which is called a 27.5" but of course this 27.5" wheel is smaller than a 27” wheel, but a 27" wheel is bigger than a 28 or 29" wheel. Dumber.
29” and 27.5” wheels have been around forever, but the names are new. For marketing purposes we just needed to make up new names (in inches) for old school wheels (700c and 650b).

I would the 260 and use the controller to set the speed limit. I tried the 200rpm version, but found I was faster that the motor, so it wasn’t doing me any good (on my flat commute).

Just to add a bit to the above, the 201 rpm Q100s and Q128H are actually around 201 rpm but the 201 rpm Q128C is 260 rpm - or at least it has been for all those that have bought one so far. On the road speeds with a 26"wheel are:
201 rpm = 15 mph (19mph with a Q128H and fully charged battery)
260 rpm = 20 mph
328 rpm =24 mph

Add 7% for a 700C wheel.

Thanks guys, it's really helpful. I'm not sure I want to go for a Q128 because of the added weight. Still, I'll play around with the shipping options and if it ,akes sense I'll add a Q128C@201RPM to the bunch - the added torque of the Q128 along with the 260RPM speed do make a lot of sense, especially if the bike is not limited to 16mph

d8veh said:

Just to add a bit to the above, the 201 rpm Q100s and Q128H are actually around 201 rpm but the 201 rpm Q128C is 260 rpm - or at least it has been for all those that have bought one so far. On the road speeds with a 26"wheel are:
201 rpm = 15 mph (19mph with a Q128H and fully charged battery)
260 rpm = 20 mph
328 rpm =24 mph

Add 7% for a 700C wheel.

Click to expand...

those road speeds look good.

My 700c is the same size (actually slightly smaller) than my 26" wheel (circumference of 2155 vs 2160mm (622-32 and 559-60)).

a 29" wheel/tire could be 7-10% faster than a 26" given the same width

drebikes said:

Thanks guys, it's really helpful. I'm not sure I want to go for a Q128 because of the added weight. Still, I'll play around with the shipping options and if it ,akes sense I'll add a Q128C@201RPM to the bunch - the added torque of the Q128 along with the 260RPM speed do make a lot of sense, especially if the bike is not limited to 16mph

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I'm thinking the 128 may be overkill for you. The Q128 is great if you want to both go fast (20mph+) and need a the extra torque (i.e. you don't want to pedal and/or have a lot of weight). Like Motomech said, the Q100 is good if you keep it above 50% of its cruising speed. If you pedal, don't have heavy weight, and don't get bogged down on the hills,the Q100 is a nice package.

28", 29", and 700C are all the same size, ISO 622. The difference is in how the bike is used. 700C came first, and was a road bike wheel. It's a great size and rolls well, so the rims were fitted with larger profile tires, generally 32c to 42c, and put on more traditional cruiser and hybrid bikes. To separate these bikes from the small wheeled 26" cruisers and 700c road bikes, the marketing name 28" was used.
As the size increased in popularity, someone had the brilliant idea to build a mountain bike around the 700c. I think I remember that being Gary Fisher. That would have been around 1999. Again, to separate this size from the 700c, and the road going cruisers on skinny tires, they called it a 29". The 29er name came later.

In the US, the 28" has been mostly dropped except at cheap department stores. Hybrids and cruisers use 700c. As I understand it, Europe still uses 28" for cruisers, hybrids, and commuters.

ScooterMan101 said:

my little 48 volt controller( not sold at BMS Battery ) has a max 15 amps draw +/- 1 amp.

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Which controller is this exactly? I'm looking for a 48v controller compatible with a Q100H motor.