Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

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Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

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Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Oct 17 2017 1:29pm

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“The Grin simulator is an exceptional tool, when used for comparisons but in the real world one finds their usage often deviates from what they were inputting.”

They tell me that they do not sell this leaf motor. So now I am reduced to looking at their spread sheet, that does not come close to the motor simulator. So now can some one tell me which motor to waste my time simulating now? Shheeeeee-it's a hopeless case...... I may as well use an over powered motor and put a label of the legal wattage on it.

I definitely do not want to use a geared hub motor. External gears are so much better. But it has got to be a single stage reduction.

Has anyone tested these motors to these specs? How can I trust the estimations of the motor simulator?
The image is what it will look like but with room for cargo.



Image

All I want is a nerrow motor that operates from 1000 watts up to 1500watts that I can use a one stage gear reduction with, I chose the below motor randomly, but does it exist and does it operate the way the grpch says?

Can't some one just tell me the name of the right motor? (not geared, nerrow slow enough for a single stage reduction)

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skeetab5780   10 MW

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Re: Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by skeetab5780 » Oct 17 2017 3:39pm

It should not really matter which winding motor you choose since you have the ability to change the gear ratio with sprockets and also voltage input

But I would go with a normal 9x7 9C or a 4t winding direct drive. The ebay ones are usually stamped steel 28mm and will do what you want. A leaf 35mm will be able to push more power than you want and will likely cost more and weigh more. But if you will upgrade power later then just get it.

Some will say one wind motor will have more copper than another winding, but they are usually pretty similar. I usually pick the middle to avoid disappointment

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Re: Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by spinningmagnets » Oct 17 2017 4:44pm

What is the diameter of the rear wheel you want to use? What do you want the top speed to be? The answer to those two questions will determine the RPMs.

Do you want the chain - drive to be 1:1?...if you can fit some reduction such as 1:2, or even as much as 1:3?...then the higher magnet speed will provide you with a great benefit.

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Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

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Re: Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Oct 17 2017 5:02pm

If I were to use a motor that operates best from 1500w... and up, will using it at 1300 watts loose too much efficiency for hill climbing?

this from grin tech: "Every single one of our direct drive motors can run at 1500W, provided the phase current stays below 45A." so maybe you can tell me what settings to use for the simulator?....I dont see any settings for phase current. How about a custom controller?

It seems to me that if I use the right gear reduction I could use any size wheel starting from a simulated 12" wheel.
the bike I have in mind has a 26inch drive tire. And the end speed is lookiing like it needs to be about 13mph on the 9% grade

Most calculators I have been using says 2.16:1 for about 13mph. All I want to do is drive 450lbs up the 9% grade. it should incredibly simple. But the motor sellers and simulators do not tell me which are geared with planetary gears are not. I do not want to pay for planitary gears. Even if I need to use a two stage reduction, which makes the project more expinsive.

spinningmagnets wrote:What is the diameter of the rear wheel you want to use? What do you want the top speed to be? The answer to those two questions will determine the RPMs.

Do you want the chain - drive to be 1:1?...if you can fit some reduction such as 1:2, or even as much as 1:3?...then the higher magnet speed will provide you with a great benefit.
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Oct 17 2017 5:43pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

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Re: Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Oct 17 2017 5:12pm

can you name a motor I can find or a link to one??? and of course I woould like to see it on the simulator so I can get an idea if it is close to the power I need.

will it be possible to run the kinds of motors at 52 volts?

I could not find the kind of motor you used on your bike.....out of production, or maybe they just used a different controller for the one they do have.
skeetab5780 wrote:It should not really matter which winding motor you choose since you have the ability to change the gear ratio with sprockets and also voltage input

But I would go with a normal 9x7 9C or a 4t winding direct drive. The ebay ones are usually stamped steel 28mm and will do what you want. A leaf 35mm will be able to push more power than you want and will likely cost more and weigh more. But if you will upgrade power later then just get it.

Some will say one wind motor will have more copper than another winding, but they are usually pretty similar. I usually pick the middle to avoid disappointment

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Re: Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by skeetab5780 » Oct 18 2017 11:29am

Hugh-Jassman wrote:can you name a motor I can find or a link to one??? and of course I woould like to see it on the simulator so I can get an idea if it is close to the power I need.

will it be possible to run the kinds of motors at 52 volts?

I could not find the kind of motor you used on your bike.....out of production, or maybe they just used a different controller for the one they do have.
skeetab5780 wrote:It should not really matter which winding motor you choose since you have the ability to change the gear ratio with sprockets and also voltage input

But I would go with a normal 9x7 9C or a 4t winding direct drive. The ebay ones are usually stamped steel 28mm and will do what you want. A leaf 35mm will be able to push more power than you want and will likely cost more and weigh more. But if you will upgrade power later then just get it.

Some will say one wind motor will have more copper than another winding, but they are usually pretty similar. I usually pick the middle to avoid disappointment
https://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-Electric-B ... Sw161Z4HdI
Its cheaper to buy one of these cheap $150 ebay kits and take the wheel apart and use the motor as mid mount. If you want it even skinnier then buy a front kit, but you will have to use the 6 bolt disc mount for sprockets

yes you can run it on 52volts

That's a lot of weight and a really steep hill, not saying it cant be done but you will have to gear it super low/slow. at that point I'm not sure if an actual mid mount motor or a hub motor would be more efficient, I do things hands on with lots of guessing! Its the best way to learn

Some math guys may chime in saying what is best

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Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

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Re: Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Oct 18 2017 5:22pm

I can't aford to just guess at it, then burn out a motor or controller. So now I am thinking that if take a motor that is rated for 1500w to 3kw and put a programable controller on it, that I should be able to control it down to what is needed. Right?

skeetab5780 wrote:
Hugh-Jassman wrote:can you name a motor I can find or a link to one??? and of course I woould like to see it on the simulator so I can get an idea if it is close to the power I need.

will it be possible to run the kinds of motors at 52 volts?

I could not find the kind of motor you used on your bike.....out of production, or maybe they just used a different controller for the one they do have.
skeetab5780 wrote:It should not really matter which winding motor you choose since you have the ability to change the gear ratio with sprockets and also voltage input

But I would go with a normal 9x7 9C or a 4t winding direct drive. The ebay ones are usually stamped steel 28mm and will do what you want. A leaf 35mm will be able to push more power than you want and will likely cost more and weigh more. But if you will upgrade power later then just get it.

Some will say one wind motor will have more copper than another winding, but they are usually pretty similar. I usually pick the middle to avoid disappointment
https://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-Electric-B ... Sw161Z4HdI
Its cheaper to buy one of these cheap $150 ebay kits and take the wheel apart and use the motor as mid mount. If you want it even skinnier then buy a front kit, but you will have to use the 6 bolt disc mount for sprockets

yes you can run it on 52volts

That's a lot of weight and a really steep hill, not saying it cant be done but you will have to gear it super low/slow. at that point I'm not sure if an actual mid mount motor or a hub motor would be more efficient, I do things hands on with lots of guessing! Its the best way to learn

Some math guys may chime in saying what is best

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Re: Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Oct 22 2017 9:23pm

Can't you just take any controller you want, hook it up to a Cycle Analyst and just adjust the max amp draw on the C.A. ?

I do that on my Mac Motor/Infineon 12 fet controller, and C.A. V2.3
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Oct 22 2017 9:25pm

How did you get such a long swing arm on that Cannondale Super V ?

I can not tell by looking at the picture taken at that distance .
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by Chalo » Oct 22 2017 9:40pm

Hugh-Jassman wrote:I definitely do not want to use a geared hub motor. External gears are so much better.
Do you prefer contaminants, corrosion, or misalignment? Those are the advantages of external gear reduction.

The pedicabs I help design and build use a gear reduced motor with an external chain reduction. There have been zero point zero problems with the planetary gears. The chain reductions have had a number of failures in their abusive environment. We have to have both reductions, so for us it's not a matter of choosing one or the other. But the planetary gear is utterly reliable and the chain reduction isn't.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by Voltron » Oct 22 2017 11:19pm

The first curb I rode off of with the throttle on. my geared motor sheared the keystock off inside, then sat there spinning inside with no connection to the shell. And I have way more dead geared motors from customers in my dirt room (either from melted gears or blown clutches) than direct drive. The only ones of those that died were internal controller ones.
So a properly maintained external reduction has its advantages too...

Re this from the OP.. Shheeeeee-it's a hopeless case...... I may as well use an over powered motor and put a label of the legal wattage on it.
Yes... that's exactly what you should do!


P.s. For Scooterman, unless I miss my guess that Cannondale with the custom swingarm is a John in CR build if you want to look him up.

markz   100 GW

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Re: Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by markz » Oct 23 2017 1:40am

You want the thinnest motor so it fits between the seat stays of the chopped rear half. Your crank doesnt look like its a freewheel setup so it must be just driving the rear wheel or what. Either way: your fix to this problem of yours is to buy a wider direct drive motor, and mounting it in its own cage, so the bottom of the motor has abit of space between the seat stays. Run any width direct drive motor you wish. If I were you, I'd buy the mxus 5kw or 3kw, or Leaf 1500W.
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Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

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Re: Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Oct 23 2017 6:59pm

the photo was from John in CR's project years ago...


This is the best answer, but can you tellme how to do it? or even better show me a ES thread about it.....

all I see in their 1000w motor......what would happen if I add more amps? more heat?
their new 1500w motor shows the same graph..................... I don't think they want to sell it.

I saw a 1000 to 2000 watt motor with a tire built around it , but their RPM stack was upside down on the performance spread sheet.

As for a hassle free drive, it looks impossible. but the simpler the better as for as building it. then I was thinking about a chain guard... I do like the belt drives the most.

48V 1000W rear spoke hub motor - electric bike motor - Spline Cassette
Image

ScooterMan101 wrote:Can't you just take any controller you want, hook it up to a Cycle Analyst and just adjust the max amp draw on the C.A. ?

I do that on my Mac Motor/Infineon 12 fet controller, and C.A. V2.3
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Oct 23 2017 7:10pm, edited 2 times in total.

markz   100 GW

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Re: Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by markz » Oct 23 2017 7:02pm

CA hook up via Shunt

LI-ghtcycle   1.21 GW

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Re: Hub motor as a MIDMOUNT direct rear drive?

Post by LI-ghtcycle » Oct 29 2017 2:06am

Hugh-Jassman wrote:the photo was from John in CR's project years ago...


This is the best answer, but can you tellme how to do it? or even better show me a ES thread about it.....

all I see in their 1000w motor......what would happen if I add more amps? more heat?
their new 1500w motor shows the same graph..................... I don't think they want to sell it.

I saw a 1000 to 2000 watt motor with a tire built around it , but their RPM stack was upside down on the performance spread sheet.

As for a hassle free drive, it looks impossible. but the simpler the better as for as building it. then I was thinking about a chain guard... I do like the belt drives the most.

48V 1000W rear spoke hub motor - electric bike motor - Spline Cassette
Image
ScooterMan101 wrote:Can't you just take any controller you want, hook it up to a Cycle Analyst and just adjust the max amp draw on the C.A. ?

I do that on my Mac Motor/Infineon 12 fet controller, and C.A. V2.3
This, KISS principal definitely, what are your goals Ebike wise? On road only? Full Suspension? I would always use one level of motor above what you expect to run constantly (i.e. a 3000w MXUS would be a better choice IMHO than a 1500w Leaf if you plan to run at 1500w continuous, lots of extra copper mass to dissipate heat) I have built a couple builds with hub motors as mid-drive, but honestly, I have found it much simpler to just use a mid-drive designed to work that way. Bafang BBSHD comes to mind, or the new Ultra. For the power levels you're talking about, you can easily do this with a Bafang HD, Mini Cyclone or Ultra (this motor has to be bought with a frame that accepts this custom shaped motor that replaces the bottom bracket). I don't have the $$$ for an Ultra, so my next build will be a BBSHD Ludi with 2500W controller. Now I just need to find an appropriate frame for it, I'm thinking something along the lines of the Giant Roam 2 Disc as I really ride on the road 99% of the time anyway.
Thank you Justin_Le for your selfless act of kindness! We all are in your debt.
Back on track E-Bronco! Now with Cro Motor Mid-Drive Goodness!
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=44997

Vision R40 w/3000w MXUS as mid-drive, NuVinci N171B rear wheel as transmission, Silent yet powerful, running 72v 11.6 ah (20s 18650 Li-Ion) to climb hills, tow trailer with zero pedaling when needed!

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=75247[/size]

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