Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
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Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by cycleops612 » Nov 22, 2017 11:05 pm

This is madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid (optionally plug in) in areas where its a cost saving no brainer, like stop start utility vehicles?

Instead of targeting obvious low hanging fruit, marketing and fantasyland tree huggers have hijacked EVs into some "statement" that clearly isnt cost effective - ie. is having little effect on total ~petrol consumption.

Here is how simple it is to have an anybrand urban delivery vehicle or bus. Take one existing model, swap the unpowered front or back wheels for wheels with hub motors. Add suitable battery and cheap ~stock electronic controllers from the ebike world.

The important parameter is that maximum use be made of regen braking. Initial acceleration should maximise use of electric, even if it flattens the battery. Getting rolling is what electric is stunning at, and what iceS and their drive trains are horrible at.

As the motors are focused on this single task, no gearing is needed.

If engines only had to engage at even 5kph, an entirely new and less wasteful ICE could be used (as in prius atkinson engine)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle

Whatever, for an unsuited ICE to provide initial rolling torque, is a major restriction on ideal efficient ICE design.

The battery should prioritise fast charge and discharge, and of course weight.

The engine remains similar, but can be lesser power & weight, given the highway and acceleration are lesser considerations.

Batteries dont have to be big, heavy,costly. Just sufficient to make good use of regen.

I have a simple & cheap idea for rapid charge/discharge storage that adds ~no weight. Make the spare tire a flywheel.

I cant believe this ~philosophy isnt a good deal for urban buses, even in the 3rd world as retrofits on old buses.

The greater the mass and the more stop start, the more the benefit.

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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by neptronix » Nov 25, 2017 7:41 am

Yeah.. i completely agree with that. Hybridizing things is actually rather easy and cheap compared to electrifying things. Seems like less resource usage overall.

I think the problem is economics. gasoline is too cheap and we're set on wasting as much of it as possible these days. A hybrid will save money, but only over a long run.... and consumers don't seem to get that..

Recovering momentum is major... i have a 1997 Nissan Maxima with a manual transmission and a 5 mile commute to work during a graveyard shift. Because of there being no traffic, i can make it to work and avoid having to stop at stop-lights ( i just coast from light to light ) 95% of the time. Because of this momentum saving, i can get up to 36mpg city in this 3.0L V6 3,000lb car... but during the day around town with very skillful driving, i only tend to get 25-30mpg ( which is still good for a car rated 20mpg city )

So... not wasting momentum is huge.. even on a car without an atkinson cycle engine. I think that the minimum fuel that a poorly designed hybrid system can save is 25%.

Doing a rear hub motor ( or two! ) is an interesting idea. My only concern is the cogging force of the hub. The hub better have 0.35mm or 0.2mm laminations, otherwise it would drag on the car constantly like a tiny brake and reduce your fuel economy..

I'm still stuck on the idea of building a hybrid using something like a toyota tercel as the base, but run the electric motor along the belt path or whatnot so that you could shift the hybrid power / modulate the regen torque with the gears while engine braking.

Seems cooler... i dunno :)
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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by Dauntless » Nov 25, 2017 9:53 pm

cycleops612 wrote:
Nov 22, 2017 11:05 pm
Instead of targeting obvious low hanging fruit, marketing and fantasyland tree huggers have hijacked EVs into some "statement" that clearly isnt cost effective - ie. is having little effect on total ~petrol consumption.
Absolutely. A certain 'Message drift.' With the object being political gain rather than productivity.

What is to keep the existing bus fleet from being retrofitted? The acceptability of that to those setting the agenda.

I don't see anything effective in making the gas engine turn as part of a hybrid. Hub motors on the rear wheels, simple and effective, if the right hubs are available. But watch the pushback if Cycleops were to put himself out there proposing going forward with this. Think of the fake news David Brock would put of Facebook, as well as the committed hijackers getting undies in bundles.

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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by Chalo » Nov 25, 2017 10:28 pm

Many of the buses where I live are hybrid electric. Maybe I notice them disproportionately because they make different sounds than other buses and trucks, especially when braking.
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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by liveforphysics » Nov 26, 2017 2:04 pm

My Honda Insight hybrid got about 45-50mpg, and my built race engine k24a powered civic got about 40-45mpg, while having room for 5 people and a large hatchback cargo area and making over 5x the Insights power to the wheels.

Hybrids are what oil companies are hoping will cause another few years of folks being a slave to a gas pump before the concept of spraying poisons in the life support system is globally taboo.
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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by billvon » Nov 27, 2017 12:14 pm

cycleops612 wrote:
Nov 22, 2017 11:05 pm
This is madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid (optionally plug in) in areas where its a cost saving no brainer, like stop start utility vehicles?
A few reasons.

Biggest is cost. Hybrids need both ICE engines _and_ EV systems, so the cost goes up significantly.

Next is efficiency. PHEV's spend a lot of energy hauling around an ICE engine that is often not used.

Next is lack of real change in the gasoline consumption model. People who want to make a significant change buy an EV. People who just want to get better gas mileage generally get a cheaper car that gets similar mileage to a hybrid. (i.e. a 43mpg Mitsubishi Mirage for $13,000 instead of a 50mpg Prius for $25,000.)
The important parameter is that maximum use be made of regen braking.
Regen braking gives you an increase of efficiency of a few percent, assuming that all the kinetic energy of the car can be harnessed via the regen system (i.e. the regen system is powerful enough to not need much friction braking.) Teslas approach that, but few other cars do. So that means regen gives you perhaps a percent increase in efficiency, which often is cancelled out by the increase in weight by the motor/inverter/battery system. Indeed, in such cases its best selling point is a decrease in regular maintenance (brake pads.)
Instead of targeting obvious low hanging fruit, marketing and fantasyland tree huggers have hijacked EVs into some "statement" that clearly isnt cost effective - ie. is having little effect on total ~petrol consumption.
Not sure where you got the idea that no one is "targeting" hybrids. In June 2017, 30,089 hybrids were sold, compared to 8814 EV's sold. (http://www.hybridcars.com/june-2017-dashboard/) So in general hybrids are being "targeted" over 3x harder than EV's.
Here is how simple it is to have an anybrand urban delivery vehicle or bus. Take one existing model, swap the unpowered front or back wheels for wheels with hub motors. Add suitable battery and cheap ~stock electronic controllers from the ebike world.
Bad idea. Hub motors don't work well for road vehicles. They add a lot of unsprung weight, and that means that tire wear and damage goes way up, handling suffers and maintenance requirements are increased. That's why no one uses hub motors now. Even the Volvo V60, an application that seems like hub motors would be ideal, used chassis-mounted motors with universal joints to the rear wheels.
If engines only had to engage at even 5kph, an entirely new and less wasteful ICE could be used (as in prius atkinson engine)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle
?? The Prius uses an Atkinson cycle engine - and often engages at zero RPM. The strength of the Prius design comes from the PSD, which allows both electric motors and gas engines to contribute to overall torque without constraining the engine speed to match a multiple of wheel speed.
I have a simple & cheap idea for rapid charge/discharge storage that adds ~no weight. Make the spare tire a flywheel.
That's been experimented with quite a bit, but

1) they are heavy
2) they are dangerous in a crash
3) storing and extracting energy at speeds from zero to 25,000 RPM isn't straightforward and
4) the spare tire is already gone in many very efficient vehicles.

Note that this was tried by the Swiss back in the 1950's, but low efficiencies led them to switch to diesel buses. Nowadays a few companies are trying the technology again for large vehicles (like buses and delivery trucks.)

All that being said, the advent of 42V/48V systems may mean that weak hybrids start showing up as a cost saving measure rather than a gas saving measure. By replacing the alternator and starter with one slightly more expensive motor/generator you save a little money, and gain the ability to regen a little and do engine start/stop. This also helps with accessory power - as cars get bigger/fancier, often 12V isn't sufficient to power all accessories. And once you get to 48 volts, then switching to cheaper electric compressors/power steering systems is also possible.

And you still get a little gas savings.
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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by Hillhater » Nov 27, 2017 8:53 pm

cycleops612 wrote:
Nov 22, 2017 11:05 pm
This is madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid (optionally plug in) in areas where its a cost saving no brainer, like stop start utility vehicles?....
..how about Taxi"s ?
It seems to me that the vast majority of city Taxi fleets are Hybrid these days, and those industries dont tolerate unreliable, uneconomical, or impractical vehicles., ..so i guess there must be a significant advantages for them to use Hybrids ?
in Australia, taxis were universally LPG fueled ford sedans/wagons, but they have now been fazed out with Toyota Camry Hybrids apparently the vehicle of choice ( pure hybrid, not Plug in).
Im sure i have noticed a similar move to Hybrid Taxis in many US cities also
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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by liveforphysics » Nov 28, 2017 7:40 am

Landing at the airport at LAX today, it was a delight to see maybe 1/4 of the taxis and 1/2 of the uber pickup cars were already pure EVs. GM bolt makes a taxi or uber car no gas/hybrid taxi could be competitive with already, and EVs will only get cheaper and better.
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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by solera ebiker » Nov 30, 2017 11:58 am

As you tree huggers stuble through life thinking EVs are the current answer presently, the rest of us fuel up and drive where ever we want to, without worry. You all think you're saving the planet, fine I say, it just saves more fossil fuel for the rest of us. It doesn't mount to a hill of beans. All this dumb stuff you guys like, ethanol, wind mills, solar, its all smoke and mirrors so you dummies vote for the greenies. Nothing of economics, and the capitalist culture, that has made it comfortable for you guys to live longer than anytime in the history of mankind, nevers seems to enter into your lexicon. Stop with, the well, but the planet crap. You will never change, in the immortal words of Forest Gump; stupid is as stupid does. I love how art imitates life.

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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Nov 30, 2017 12:33 pm

solera ebiker wrote:
Nov 30, 2017 11:58 am
As you tree huggers stuble through life..
stuble is as stuble does
Kick down the barricades Listen what the kids say.
From time to time people change their minds But the Frock is here to stay.
I've seen it all from the bottom to the top Everywhere I go the kids wanna Frock.
Around the world or around the block Everywhere I go the kids wanna Frock.

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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by billvon » Nov 30, 2017 1:34 pm

solera ebiker wrote:
Nov 30, 2017 11:58 am
As you tree huggers stuble through life thinking EVs are the current answer presently
They are not "the answer" - just one of them.
the rest of us fuel up and drive where ever we want to, without worry.
So do I. (And I also don't worry that you'll be able to get in front of me before I merge into your lane.)
All this dumb stuff you guys like, ethanol, wind mills, solar, its all smoke and mirrors so you dummies vote for the greenies. Nothing of economics, and the capitalist culture . . . .
Renewable energy jobs in the US - over 1 million. Not too shabby.
In a capitalist culture the lowest price wins, correct? Solar is now cheaper than coal or nuclear. But if you want to pay for dirty power, feel free; I will enjoy my cheap power.
Stop with, the well, but the planet crap. You will never change, in the immortal words of Forest Gump; stupid is as stupid does.
It does indeed. And today we have climate change deniers, coal dead-enders and oil dependents who are proving that saying every day.
--bill von

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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by solera ebiker » Nov 30, 2017 3:38 pm

Solar is cheaper, than... you, have been drinking the kool-aide. It is not, thats just plain lie and enough of Americans spoke loud and clear last November. You cannot point to an "independent" source, so we just keep subsidizing enough of it, to make you tree huggers not have a hissy fit. Oh, i'm sure you keep reading all the greenie crap feeling wholesome inside. If it was viable, then drop the soloar credit, oh, right you wouldn't agree to that. And dont bother to think fossil fuel is subsidized the same, its not. The crap all you knuckleheads talk about are deductions for drilling, exploration, depletion allowances, etc. built into the US tax code. That is all part of the business expenses granted in the tax code.

Hopefully the tax legislation will eliminate the SALT deductions that will punish all the liberal states for taxing their residents excessively. We will see, if the side of truth and justice prevails. The jury is still out as of this post.

In the meantime, refer back to Forest Gump.

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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by Punx0r » Nov 30, 2017 4:18 pm

You are aware that RE also exists outside your U.S.A. World-bubble, right?

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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by billvon » Nov 30, 2017 4:53 pm

solera ebiker wrote:
Nov 30, 2017 3:38 pm
Solar is cheaper, than... you, have been drinking the kool-aide. It is not, thats just plain lie. . . .
Well, you can say that all you like. Utilities disagree - which is why they are happy to pay sub 3 cents/kwhr for long term power purchase contracts for solar.

When it comes to believing you vs believing the people with the checkbooks - it's an easy call on who to believe.
and enough of Americans spoke loud and clear last November.
You mean the minority who elected Trump, vs the millions more who rejected him? Yep, that was pretty clear.
Oh, i'm sure you keep reading all the greenie crap feeling wholesome inside. If it was viable, then drop the soloar credit, oh, right you wouldn't agree to that. And dont bother to think fossil fuel is subsidized the same, its not.
I am fine with that. Drop all subsidies for power. Make oil and coal companies purchase every acre they drill or mine, rather than giving resources away via subsidized lease deals. Require them to pay for what they break, whether it's damage from oil spills, deaths from coal power plant pollution or erosion of buildings due to acid rain.

Then let the free market decide.

I have a feeling you won't like that very much.
--bill von

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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by solera ebiker » Dec 01, 2017 11:11 am

billvon wrote:
Nov 30, 2017 4:53 pm
solera ebiker wrote:
Nov 30, 2017 3:38 pm
Solar is cheaper, than... you, have been drinking the kool-aide. It is not, thats just plain lie. . . .
Well, you can say that all you like. Utilities disagree - which is why they are happy to pay sub 3 cents/kwhr for long term power purchase contracts for solar.

When it comes to believing you vs believing the people with the checkbooks - it's an easy call on who to believe.
and enough of Americans spoke loud and clear last November.
You mean the minority who elected Trump, vs the millions more who rejected him? Yep, that was pretty clear.
Oh, i'm sure you keep reading all the greenie crap feeling wholesome inside. If it was viable, then drop the soloar credit, oh, right you wouldn't agree to that. And dont bother to think fossil fuel is subsidized the same, its not.
I am fine with that. Drop all subsidies for power. Make oil and coal companies purchase every acre they drill or mine, rather than giving resources away via subsidized lease deals. Require them to pay for what they break, whether it's damage from oil spills, deaths from coal power plant pollution or erosion of buildings due to acid rain.

Then let the free market decide.

I have a feeling you won't like that very much.
Lets review;

Hugger legislation makes the cost per kwh buyback artificially set by those dummies. So, you, like most libs, spin it, but as usual your another dummy that doesn't read.

On elections; listen, being stupid on the constitution is nothing to boast about, knucklehead. The president is elected by the electoral college. I suggest you spend a couple bucks and read the constitution, it will take you about 30 mins. Posting knucklehead statements, seems to be a pattern with you.

On property rights; Again tiy rear your knuckleheadishness. Land ownership dates back to England, which is the basis for our real property law here. Mineral rights are, and often seperated from the surface real property, when there is believed value. That value, is established under written contract between a buyer and a seller, and must be in writing. Both parties agree to the value, and consideration is agreed upon for said value. Please stop being your typical dummy, making stupid statements. Its annoying to the informed. Oh, and the last part, its called bonding. Yes, they are legally and economy responsible stupid.

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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by wturber » Dec 01, 2017 11:54 am

solera ebiker wrote:
Nov 30, 2017 11:58 am
Stop with, the well, but the planet crap. You will never change, in the immortal words of Forest Gump; stupid is as stupid does. I love how art imitates life.
I don't normally criticize grammar and writing in online posts, but if you are going to suggest that people are stupid, you might want to try using the correct words and brush up on your grammar a bit. Poor writing suggests poor thinking.
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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by wturber » Dec 01, 2017 12:01 pm

billvon wrote:
Nov 30, 2017 4:53 pm
solera ebiker wrote:
Nov 30, 2017 3:38 pm
Solar is cheaper, than... you, have been drinking the kool-aide. It is not, thats just plain lie. . . .
Well, you can say that all you like. Utilities disagree - which is why they are happy to pay sub 3 cents/kwhr for long term power purchase contracts for solar.
The research I've seen leads me to believe that there is frequently some creative accounting going on to make solar look as inexpensive as some of the alternatives. There are little tricks like not applying the appropriate amortization based on reasonable life expectancies of equipment and so forth. Further, few utilities operate in a free market. Most are regulated monopolies. The incentive structure does not necessarily lead them to be making decisions based on cost. Things are often as much political as they are economic. For instance, in our area, utilities subsidize the purchase of LED bulbs so that we will purchase less electricity from them. Go figure.
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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by wturber » Dec 01, 2017 12:03 pm

billvon wrote:
Nov 30, 2017 4:53 pm

Then let the free market decide.

I have a feeling you won't like that very much.
I'm all for that. But I don't think alternative energy would do that well. Certainly without subsidies, solar wouldn't have made the gains it has made.

But that's all pie-in-the-sky anyway. Government entanglement in these things is so complex that you could probably never unravel it.
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Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by billvon » Dec 01, 2017 12:05 pm

solera ebiker wrote:
Dec 01, 2017 11:11 am
. . . being stupid . . .knucklehead. . . . knuckleheadishness.. . l dummy. . . stupid statements. . . stupid.
Looks like you have trouble making logical arguments, and are going to resort to personal attacks and emotional arguments instead. Oh well. Such tactics are pretty common among climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, creationists and other such groups.

Perhaps you would be happier on a forum that is less engineering/science based. There are plenty of forums out there where you will not be troubled by factual arguments.
--bill von

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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by billvon » Dec 01, 2017 12:10 pm

wturber wrote:
Dec 01, 2017 12:03 pm
I'm all for that. But I don't think alternative energy would do that well. Certainly without subsidies, solar wouldn't have made the gains it has made.
Definitely true. When I first looked at solar, it was $10 a watt. Now it's well under $1 a watt. Much of that progress has come from the artificial demand created through subsidies.

The goal of such subsidies (in my mind) was to get solar (and other renewables) to the point where they could compete on their own - and they've hit that point now. Even outside the US where no subsidies are involved, utilities are signing up for decades-long purchase agreements for solar power. Which is great; it's an indication both that those subsidies were money well spent, and that they can be discontinued.
But that's all pie-in-the-sky anyway. Government entanglement in these things is so complex that you could probably never unravel it.
Probably true, unfortunately. The conversation usually goes like this:

"End all subsidies! Let the free market rule!"
"Excellent! Let's do it! End solar subsidies, wind subsidies, end the Price-Waterhouse act, end oil company subsidies . . . ."
"Now. . . .woah . . . wait a minute - losing those subsidies will cost jobs in my district, and I am up for re-election. Maybe we should talk about this . . ."
--bill von

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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by billvon » Dec 01, 2017 12:16 pm

wturber wrote:
Dec 01, 2017 12:01 pm
The research I've seen leads me to believe that there is frequently some creative accounting going on to make solar look as inexpensive as some of the alternatives. There are little tricks like not applying the appropriate amortization based on reasonable life expectancies of equipment and so forth.
Agreed; which is why I don't pay much attention to solar power purchase contracts in the US as a sign of how cheap solar is getting overall. However, outside the US:

-there are no US subsidies involved
-there is not as much pressure to use renewables or to play accounting tricks
-there is more financial pressure to perform, since most other economies aren't as strong as ours

And that's where we are seeing some of the cheapest solar purchase contracts.
Further, few utilities operate in a free market. Most are regulated monopolies. The incentive structure does not necessarily lead them to be making decisions based on cost. Things are often as much political as they are economic. For instance, in our area, utilities subsidize the purchase of LED bulbs so that we will purchase less electricity from them. Go figure.
Well, right; in the US they are publicly owned utilities. They get free use of public right-of-way for their transmission systems and a guaranteed monopoly. In return they have to heed public opinion, usually expressed via a public utility commission. Thus they get told that they have to (for example) extend lower prices to poor people, or give people benefits to reduce their power usage, or implement cleaner generation methods, even though those measures don't make sense from a pure business perspective.
--bill von

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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by solera ebiker » Dec 01, 2017 12:37 pm

billvon wrote:
Dec 01, 2017 12:05 pm
solera ebiker wrote:
Dec 01, 2017 11:11 am
. . . being stupid . . .knucklehead. . . . knuckleheadishness.. . l dummy. . . stupid statements. . . stupid.
Looks like you have trouble making logical arguments, and are going to resort to personal attacks and emotional arguments instead. Oh well. Such tactics are pretty common among climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, creationists and other such groups.

Perhaps you would be happier on a forum that is less engineering/science based. There are plenty of forums out there where you will not be troubled by factual arguments.
Typical liberal, rather than dispute facts, you do the Texas two step and not address your errors. Ho hum, its becoming rather a bore, wouldn't you say, darling.

In the immortal words of Dean Wormer, "son, fat drunk and stupid is noway to go through life" Ones obviously been covered.

You guys all skirt the facts. First, it was global warming. Then, when they found NASA fudged the data on the ocean temperature bouys, and the trendline went flat, they switched it up to climate change. Hey Holmes, the climate has always been changing. If you ate too much lead paint as a kid, I honestly apologize, as it truly isn't your fault. But, if its just a case of liberalism, then yiu are destined to make hucksters like Al Gore, the inventor of the internet, richer.

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Dean Wormer
Faber College

Cc: Bluto, Flounder, et al.

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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by solera ebiker » Dec 01, 2017 12:59 pm

Oh, one last thing before I drive to the mall in my SUV. The tides are changing, you guys have ran it into the ground faster than even I thought possible.

EPA is being clipped, taxes hopefully will soon be cut. Spending is next! I truely laugh when I read statements like "my research ", cripes man, you didn't even know how the president gets elected, thats just downright shameful. Dont you think so too.

Seriously, buy a copy of the US Constitution and read it. All those white men figured this out over 200 years ago, and its taken all you liberals this long to pull us down. Well, there is the ebb and flow, and pretty much we have just about had it with you guys ruining it. New York City and L.A have no clue what America stands for, but us deplorables do.

Thus, guess how he won the White House. He read the constitution. Try it, you might find it useful, he did!

Signed,

Hillary Clinton
Old lady who lost TWICE! :lol:

coleasterling
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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by coleasterling » Dec 01, 2017 2:07 pm

neptronix wrote:
Nov 25, 2017 7:41 am
Yeah.. i completely agree with that. Hybridizing things is actually rather easy and cheap compared to electrifying things. Seems like less resource usage overall.
I disagree with this. You've got two completely separate drive systems to integrate instead of just one engine or motor. Some of the OEM solutions are genius, but the development costs were astronomical (GM's 2-Mode system, Toyota's HSD). Even once the hardware is sorted, integrating it well enough for the user to be unaware of the difference in operation is extremely hard. I would much rather build a full electric or full gas car than doing another hybrid. Manufacturers are going to move away from hybrids as quickly as they can for regular passenger vehicles because full electrics are so much less demanding. That said, despite the recent electric semi announcements, I see hybrids being a staple of the commercial and industrial sector for a looong time.

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wturber
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Re: Madness. Why such slow penetration for hybrid?

Post by wturber » Dec 01, 2017 2:11 pm

billvon wrote:
Dec 01, 2017 12:16 pm

-there are no US subsidies involved
-there is not as much pressure to use renewables or to play accounting tricks
-there is more financial pressure to perform, since most other economies aren't as strong as ours
I think there is a LOT of political pressure and government involvement/interference in these countries. I think that if you look into it, you are likely to find that this is mostly what is driving the move. Also, the price per KWh is frequently much higher in these countries.

Anyway, this isn't an area of expertise for me. But every time I've dived into looking into these things it hasn't looked all that good for alternative energy sources. Better than in the past for sure, but not really that good. Economics has not been the main driver in alternative energy around the world.
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