New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Has anyone yet found a source of the 52 volt boards for the 48 volt unit ? I am pretty sure that it would improve the cadence levels on my 500W which are pretty pedestrian to say the least, particularly when the battery is about 1/2 full and below. I know on the BBS02 I have, 52 v transformed that unit.

The other thing I find is that you need to constantly keep changing the gears to a faster gear to try and keep the cadence level down which then just speeds the bike up to a point where you can't change due to the terrain and then you are lumbered with a real slow cadence level. One of these days a manufacturer will design a unit with a 90 - 95 cadence level for the fitter and more sporty riders.
 
bjorsa said:
I should have been more specific, jumping in here severeal pages later. Earlier in the thread some of us discussed the low maximum cadence allowed with the TSDZ2. Human maximum power need much higher cadences than the motor can handle. In my case, this messed my knees up and also resulted in a broken torque sensor unit (broken axle) because I pushed slow and hard.

As per standard, the TSDZ2 tapers off any assist around 80-90 cadence rpm. AFAIK there is no easy way to simply switch out gearings so I turned to the electronics instead. Buying the new 52V system would, at least theoretically, boost the cadence by (52/48=) 8.3% which isn´t enough if you want to keep an effective cadence around 90. So I stuffed a replacement 36V inside motor in my 48V unit. Alternatively one can switch the controller of a 36V unit: simply install a 48V controller instead of the original 36V controller. The main thing is to pair a 48V battery with a 36V motor. The controller must match the battery but, alas, not the motor! Nota bene: the controllers have a cut-off and won´t start with overvoltage.

My solution won´t increase torque and shouldn´t put any extra load on the infamous blue nylon gear. In fact, unless you increase amps on the VLCD5 torque will drop, since we will only have traded amps for voltage. I boosted amps 25% to match the original torque, while increasing power output the same 25%, hopefully rather safely. I acknowledge temps will rise, but then again, I live in Sweden, so I´ll be mindful of stressing the motor if summer strikes hot, otherwise I can probable ignore the risk of increased wattage resulting in overheating the motor. For me, this has transformed the TSDZ2 from a lazy-ass sunday excursion motor to a real tempo pusher. The higher cadences allows for a sportier ride and more excercise. It will spare your knees and torque sensor unit too.

Hope this makes everything clear.

Thanks, bjorsa, it's a lot more clear. ... More succinct, a would be: Running a 36v motor in an otherwise 48v system moves the upper assist pedal-RPM limit to a higher speed, from roughly 90 revolutions per minute to around 120.
 
So I know my 36v is very perky when its fully charged but gets very lazy quickly. Im running 10S (42v max) but would really love to run 11s (46.2v) which would give it a bit of lift all through the battery level.... except for the high voltage cutoff in the controller.

Anyway to up the HVC a little in the software ?
 
Hi
I've been a lurker on the forum for about a year, reading this thread and others to decide on my first build. I ended up going with the 500w TSDZ2 from PSWPower. I got my battery from Booant, which took about 6 weeks, apparently due to some changes to security procedures at Hong Kong customs.

I got the bike up and running this week, taking it for a test ride on the weekend with no issues. I then commuted into work the next day (19km), which was mainly downhill or flat. However, on the way home it started to make a loud clicking sound with the rotation of the pedals, which I felt as a vibration in the pedals.

Based on some descriptions, I am wondering if I have stripped the blue gear already. I was gearing appropriately, but I am heavy (120kg) so I don't know if this had an impact. Either was I didn't expect an issue this soon.

Have emailed pswpower to get the OK before I open it up to check the gear. Hopefully can resolve it and get back into it,as it was a lot of fun while it lasted.
 
Most likely is the blue gear. Sounds exactly like what happened to one unit I had sold. Customer managed 40 kms. before the gear stripped. If you have trouble getting either the blue or brass gear replacement I have spares but don't want to step on anyone's toes here.
 
jbalat said:
So I know my 36v is very perky when its fully charged but gets very lazy quickly. Im running 10S (42v max) but would really love to run 11s (46.2v) which would give it a bit of lift all through the battery level.... except for the high voltage cutoff in the controller.

Anyway to up the HVC a little in the software ?

Are you sure the HVC will give you trouble? I've tried an 11s battery on my tsdz2 from june 2016 and it worked just fine. It was slightly more perky and let med pedal slightly faster and still get good power.

If I had a habit of draining my battery completely, I'd perhaps be worried about the LVC. That voltage may perhaps be too low?

If I ever feel the need for an extra battery it will definately be an 11s one.
 
Comparing the BBS02 with the TSDZ2

I had the BBS02 for a couple months, and then installed the TSDZ2 a few weeks ago. Here are my thoughts:

Equipment:
Motors: Bafang BBS02 750w vs Tongsheng TSDZ2 500w
Battery: 48V 11.6AH battery—same for both motors
Display: Bafang C965, Tongsheng VLCD5
Price (approx.): BBS02: $400, TSDZ2: $300
Bike: 2013 Specialized Rockhopper mountain bike, hard tail, front shocks
Testing terrain: Flat city streets of Shanghai

Summary: I prefer the Tongsheng and here’s why: It’s much smoother and blends into the normal bike riding experience, but still giving a nice boost. Although the Bafang is more powerful, it’s more like riding a moped and not as intuitive. With the BBS02, you just spin the pedals and go. With the TDSZ2 you have to apply pressure to the pedals and so it feels more natural. That said, I highly recommend both, but I prefer the TSDZ2.

Power: The BBS02 delivers 100% power as soon as you start rotating the pedals. It can be too much power if you have it on a high setting. The BBS02 can be set on levels 1-9. Typically, I started out on a 1 and increased as I started going. I typically kept mine on 4. It’s only when I wanted turbo speed that I increased it to 9. I found that I frequently adjusted the power levels, like gears, so I could keep it in control. If I had it on a high level, it could lurch unexpectedly. The TSDZ2, on the other hand, is torque-sensitive, so it detects how much pressure is put on the pedals and delivers more power the harder you pedal. The TSDZ2 delivers the power more smoothly, so I never feel the need to adjust the levels. The second I reduce pressure on the pedals, the motor slows down. The TSDZ2 has 4 levels. I usually leave mine on 3 and forget about it.
The BBS02 can be programmed using a special cable to adjust how quickly it reacts to pedal inputs. Some people insist this improves the performance and smoothness, but I haven’t tried this.

Brakes: With the BBS02, I often used the ebrakes to cut-off the motor. I would often gently squeeze the brakes, even if I was still pedaling, if I’m going near traffic or pedestrians. Then I would release the brakes and the motor would re-engage. You don’t really need ebrakes with the TSDZ2. I would just pedal more lightly and the motor turns off. It’s more intuitive. In fact, I re-installed my regular brakes instead of using ebrakes (bonus: less wires). There is no fear of lurching. It’s just smoother. Most TSDZ2 kits don’t come with ebrakes or a throttle and you don’t need it.

Gear sensor: Also, I purchased and installed a gear sensor for the BBS02. Changing gears under power can cause them to grind and get damaged. The gear sensor temporarily cuts off the motor as the gears change. The TSDZ2 doesn’t have this option, but, again, it doesn’t seem to need it. The motor cuts off very quickly when you stop pedaling or reduce pressure on the pedals. It’s like how it works normally on a bike.

Speed: The BBS02 is faster and more powerful. The speed limiter on the BBS02 can be removed (up to 99km/hr) with the C965 display. The TSDZ2 speed limit can be set up to 45km/hr (although you can set the wheel size to smaller than actual to bypass this, although the speedometer will not be accurate).
Also, I have found it difficult to get past 40km/hr on flats with the TSDZ2. I think that is because the assist cuts out beyond a certain level of RPM. A larger front chain ring would help if speed is what you need. The default chain ring is 42T. There is also a setting for “power adjustment”, which may help if I increase it.
With the BBS02, pedaling is just for looks. You don’t put much pressure on the pedals. However, the power is great. The BBS02 has great torque and you can fly off the starting line. With the TSDZ2, you will put in slightly more effort. But let’s be clear, it’s still a powerful electric motor and with not much effort, you can get quickly up to top speed.

Throttle: Throttle is available for both, but it’s unnecessary with the TSDZ2. I didn’t use my throttle either with the BBS02. I preferred to engage the pedals. I found it uncomfortable using the throttle exclusively, since you are putting 100% of your weight on your seat. That is why ebikes need softer seats, full-suspension or seat shocks. I did use the BBS02 throttle sometimes when I didn’t have my feet in the right position and I needed to accelerate quickly.

Display: The Tongsheng VLCD5 display is big. Slightly too big. I wish it were smaller. Although it has a USB port. I ordered the smaller XH18 display which fits on the left handle.
Bafang has a range of displays that are good size (about the size of a deck of cards).

Build Quality: The Tongsheng seems like a nicer build quality. Both drives are solid. The Tongsheng is a little lighter than the Bafang (but also less powerful). The chain ring on the BBS02 seems cheap and people often replace them. The chain ring protector on the BBS02 is plastic and the one on the TSDZ2 is metal.

Noise: The Tongsheng is quieter. While the BBS02 is quiet, there is still a humming sound. I can barely hear the TSDZ2.

Battery usage: I didn’t really test it scientifically, but the TSDZ2 seems to last much longer. Which makes sense, since it has a lower wattage and it doesn’t deliver quite as much power.

Installation: Basically, the same. However, if you don’t have to install ebrakes or a gear sensor, then that saves time. I have not done much bike maintenance before this, so it took me a while, but it was still easy to figure out. I needed to go to the bike shop to have them help me remove the bottom bracket since I didn’t have the right tools for that.

Community: The Bafang products are more popular and have been widely used, tested, and customized. There are more tutorials, information and guides by far than for Tongsheng products.

Bottom line:
I recommend the TSDZ2 if you want an electric motor to assist you, but still retain the intuitive feel of riding the bike. It’s much better for a novice rider or someone who isn’t comfortable dealing with the complexity of controlling the motor.
I recommend the BBS02 if you value high speed and power and don’t mind giving up the bike-like feel. Or upgrade to the BBSHD for even more power.
 
bjorsa; excellent post about cadence and knees. I also have busted knees. I agree that higher cadence and lower load on the knee is best. In fact, that is how i have managed to rehabilitate my knee over a period of 3 years so far.. high repetition, low load motion.

Personally i would have reduced the amps by about 1 if possible in addition to increasing the voltage.. just to keep to load as low as possible on the internal gears..

Let me ask you this though.. a big qualm i had with the Bafang bbs02 was that it put the pedal position out on one leg by 10mm.. is there any offset in the pedals of this drive?
 
neptronix said:
Let me ask you this though.. a big qualm i had with the Bafang bbs02 was that it put the pedal position out on one leg by 10mm.. is there any offset in the pedals of this drive?
Yes, there's remarkable offset. But you can compensate it with a single right Bafang BBS crankarm. It reduces rhe Q-faktor also.
I have bad knees too.
 
Hello. Maybe someone can take a photo of the controller with 8 pin connectors, I need to see where the signal comes from the handle of the gas.
 
Hello,
I installed my motor from recycles-ebike.

I rode 100km with it, and so far I am pretty happy : assist is very natural.

I have struggled a bit to obtain a good chain-line, but with an added inox part, I managed to add a second 52 tooth chain-ring close to the original (see pdf attached)

Assist does drop a little to early when feet rotation is high. My current solution: instead of switching to a higher gear, and feel a strong acceleration, then stabilisation when reaching max rotation, I increase the assist level, and keep the high feet rotation, you get that appreciated extra help and can keep you feet in high rotation speed. The motor seems to appreciate, but be careful if breaking or stopping : you need to decrease the assist level or anticipate the gear down, if you don't what to break chain or over heat the motor.

For the moment I have decreased the A to 10 (originaly at 15 or 16 when I received the motor) to preserve my battery.


Important information: I had lots of trouble making the speed sensor work : over 15km/h speed went directly up to 99km/h. My mistake was that I tried to decrease the space between the sensor and the magnet. When I instead increased it, it finally worked (moved the sensor from position 1 to position 2 on my picture attached)
 

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remremi said:
[...snip...]
I have struggled a bit to obtain a good chain-line, but with an added inox part, I managed to add a second 52 tooth chain-ring close to the original (see pdf attached)

IDK who created that image, but it's a visual representation of my adapter design I devised and published here - as a textual description with images of one being manufactured - starting with this post from this past summer:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88711#p1299551

Thankfully, whoever created the PDF was honest and appropriate and didn't try to claim the design as their own work! 8)

Also note that in my textual description, in addition to exactly what's in the PDF, I also I describe how the adapter can accommodate THREE chainrings as the one pictured can only handle two. But, that said, I've yet to find a derailleur really suitable. I solved the "geez, my derailleur's expectation of chainline distance from frame centerline is too far inboard to work" problem by making my own adapter for a front derailleur - you can find that work here:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=89956&p=1331943#p1330841

If anyone has a BETTER solution, I'm all ears!
 
neptronix said:
Personally i would have reduced the amps by about 1 if possible in addition to increasing the voltage.. just to keep to load as low as possible on the internal gears..

Let me ask you this though.. a big qualm i had with the Bafang bbs02 was that it put the pedal position out on one leg by 10mm.. is there any offset in the pedals of this drive?

I feed 19 amps now, so a bit of a decrease from the 350W 36V original, which starts at 20 amps. Since I almost always keep it in level 2, that seems safe. Level 3 and 4 are not as natural. The difference is mostly about power assistance when pedaling lightly, while top power remains about the same. I sure can´t tell the difference changing from 2 to 4 when I keep up the pace, but with level 2 it drops assist sooner and in level 4 it´s more or less on-off. In other words, level 2 mimicks my riding better. YMMV

Q-factor is a total disaster. Not only is it big, is it also heavily squewed to the right. I ordered assymetrical Delta-0 crank arms from Miranda. For my tourer (with fat chainstays), the right arm adds zero q, the left 16mm. For my MTB, again zero q for the right while I kept the original Tongsheng arm on the left. (The Tongsheng crank arm has an offset of about 10mm, 16 is too much for that bike.) This bring the pedals more in line while minimizing q. I.E. minimizing as in acceptable.

Chainline becomes unacceptable if you simply add a second chainring on the outside, replacing the chainguard. But if you offset it inwards, it works fair, as long as you avoid cross-chaining while on the big ring.

In short, the TSDZ2 takes some tweaking to perform well enough for those of us more into cycling and bicycles; it can´t handle much power on the pedals or the internal axle breaks; but apart from this it delivers natural, smooth and discreet power for a great price.
 
bjorsa said:
Q-factor is a total disaster. Not only is it big, is it also heavily squewed to the right. I ordered assymetrical Delta-0 crank arms from Miranda. For my tourer (with fat chainstays), the right arm adds zero q, the left 16mm. For my MTB, again zero q for the right while I kept the original Tongsheng arm on the left. (The Tongsheng crank arm has an offset of about 10mm, 16 is too much for that bike.) This bring the pedals more in line while minimizing q. I.E. minimizing as in acceptable.

I believe 16mm is significantly worse than the bbs02's offset..
I remember measuring about 10mm on the bbs02. With some custom cranks, i think i got it down to 5mm..
But it still hurt to ride that bbs02 for some reason.

I think i'll sit out the idea of getting a TSDZ2. Still set on building my own custom mid drive at some point.
 
Hi! First-post... what a great thread, full of info!

I'm just in the process of installing my TSDZ2 - looking at lights. My kit came with the splitter from the speed-sensor and cables for lights. Does anyone happen to know how much current the 6v lines are intended to supply? I've a nice bright 5 LED floodlight that appears to work down to 6v (it's really designed for 2S 18650 packs) and seems to draw around half an amp @ 6v.

Is anyone else using this lighting feed, which lights have they gone for?
 
bjorsa said:
I feed 19 amps now, so a bit of a decrease from the 350W 36V original, which starts at 20 amps. Since I almost always keep it in level 2, that seems safe. Level 3 and 4 are not as natural. The difference is mostly about power assistance when pedaling lightly, while top power remains about the same. I sure can´t tell the difference changing from 2 to 4 when I keep up the pace, but with level 2 it drops assist sooner and in level 4 it´s more or less on-off. In other words, level 2 mimicks my riding better. YMMV

So how are you feeding 19 Amps, I only get 15 from my 36v unit. The Amps adjustment in the hidden menu does nothing at all.
 
neptronix said:
I think i'll sit out the idea of getting a TSDZ2. Still set on building my own custom mid drive at some point.
A no cost sample did nothing for me. I wanted to like it...
 
Each to their own, I really like it for off road but hate it for commuting
Here is a lttle teaser of my ride a couple of weeks ago. Both bikes were using TSDZ2's. We rode the Epic trail to Mt. Sterling then cut back to telephone junction and mirimbah. It was trully epic ! The motors handled the rough terrain with ease. But then we tried to ride up to mt buller on the road 16km up hill and only got about a third of the way before we were stuck pedalling at 8km's per hour with level 1 assist and battery blinking on empty. Next day we went on the Delatite river downhill run which was awesome but decided to take the bus back to the top :)
[youtube]mAGNyqXMm2I[/youtube]
 
So I got PSWPower to send me a replacement metal gear on the chance that it was the gear that had stripped. However, I have opened up the unit following the guides that everyone has helpfully posted, but my motor does not slide out once the four screws at the bottom are out. It feels pretty stuck in there. I was originally trying to do this with the motor still on the bike but took it out in case it gave me better leverage, but still no movement.

Any tips from someone who has done this procedure?


wgtnpete said:
Hi
I've been a lurker on the forum for about a year, reading this thread and others to decide on my first build. I ended up going with the 500w TSDZ2 from PSWPower. I got my battery from Booant, which took about 6 weeks, apparently due to some changes to security procedures at Hong Kong customs.

I got the bike up and running this week, taking it for a test ride on the weekend with no issues. I then commuted into work the next day (19km), which was mainly downhill or flat. However, on the way home it started to make a loud clicking sound with the rotation of the pedals, which I felt as a vibration in the pedals.

Based on some descriptions, I am wondering if I have stripped the blue gear already. I was gearing appropriately, but I am heavy (120kg) so I don't know if this had an impact. Either was I didn't expect an issue this soon.

Have emailed pswpower to get the OK before I open it up to check the gear. Hopefully can resolve it and get back into it,as it was a lot of fun while it lasted.
 
Marin said:
have you seen this?, I haven't had to take one apart yet though

TSDZ2 Assembly.pdf

Yeah, I had looked at that. I managed to get it out by taking the chain ring and cover off the larger gear and tapping against the small reduction gear that connected through to the motor.

Turns out the blue gear was fine. I regreased everything and closed it up and took it for a test run. The clicking/shuddering is still there. It is more pronounced when I am pushing harder (like going uphill) and it seemed to coincide with the torque sensor having to kick into a stronger assist.

Does anyone have any ideas?
 
wgtnpete said:
Does anyone have any ideas?
Is the clicking etc occurring with every rotation of the pedals? If so, I’d check the fit and tighten the motor attachment bolts, then run it for 50+ miles. That’s what I’ve done with several motors, successfully. Eventually they all became silent.

The motors have several bearings and pinion shafts which are uni-directional and, at a guess, they need bedding in.
 
James Broadhurst said:
wgtnpete said:
Does anyone have any ideas?
Is the clicking etc occurring with every rotation of the pedals? If so, I’d check the fit and tighten the motor attachment bolts, then run it for 50+ miles. That’s what I’ve done with several motors, successfully. Eventually they all became silent.

The motors have several bearings and pinion shafts which are uni-directional and, at a guess, they need bedding in.

It's not all the time, but it starts either at a higher pedalling cadence, or if I am pushing harder against the pedals when going uphill. I have tightened everything up so don't think it's anything thats loose and banging.

I will give it a couple of longer rides and see if it is just the gear bedding in. I was just feeling a bit cautious.
 
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