My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000
- Thread starter robocam
- Start date
scrambler
10 kW
Hi,
Here is something I am trying to figure out, and I was wondering if you may be interested in and have the time to test for us
I am considering getting a bike with the Bafang Ultra, as it seems like it has the right amount of power for what I need.
I do want to use an IGH, as I don't want to deal with the Derailleur pitfalls.
Problem is not many IGH can take the power of the Ultra.
At the top of the list for strength you have the Rohloff which also offers a wide gear range (526%), but 14 gears means a lot of shifting, and it is also very expensive.
Next on the strength ladder are the 3 speed like Nexus and Sturmey archer, but with a lot less range (158% / 177%)
And you have middle of the road for strength with SA 5 speed or Alfine 8 speed (243% / 307%)
Untested will be the new NuVinci High Torque N380X (380% range but on spec not able to take the 160NM of the Ultra)
Besides the obvious need for strength, for an electric bike what you would ideally need is fewer gears, but a wide gear range so you can pedal both steep climbs and at high speed (30mph)
If we put aside the Rohloff because of the 14 gears and its price, the question becomes how much range is enough to be able to both pedal at high speed, and climb steep hills.
To help us determine that, it would help if you could test the following:
What is the highest gear you can use to get the bike going from a dead start without too much effort
What is the highest gear you can use to get the bike going up hill from a dead stop, without too much effort, and what speed can you reach at that gear.
With that info and the Nb of teeth of the sprocket and chainring and wheel outside Diameter, I can extrapolate both side of the equation, and determine the minimal Ideal gear range needed to fully exploit the Ultra.
Let me know if this is something you may want to test on occasion.
Thanks
Here is something I am trying to figure out, and I was wondering if you may be interested in and have the time to test for us
I am considering getting a bike with the Bafang Ultra, as it seems like it has the right amount of power for what I need.
I do want to use an IGH, as I don't want to deal with the Derailleur pitfalls.
Problem is not many IGH can take the power of the Ultra.
At the top of the list for strength you have the Rohloff which also offers a wide gear range (526%), but 14 gears means a lot of shifting, and it is also very expensive.
Next on the strength ladder are the 3 speed like Nexus and Sturmey archer, but with a lot less range (158% / 177%)
And you have middle of the road for strength with SA 5 speed or Alfine 8 speed (243% / 307%)
Untested will be the new NuVinci High Torque N380X (380% range but on spec not able to take the 160NM of the Ultra)
Besides the obvious need for strength, for an electric bike what you would ideally need is fewer gears, but a wide gear range so you can pedal both steep climbs and at high speed (30mph)
If we put aside the Rohloff because of the 14 gears and its price, the question becomes how much range is enough to be able to both pedal at high speed, and climb steep hills.
To help us determine that, it would help if you could test the following:
What is the highest gear you can use to get the bike going from a dead start without too much effort
What is the highest gear you can use to get the bike going up hill from a dead stop, without too much effort, and what speed can you reach at that gear.
With that info and the Nb of teeth of the sprocket and chainring and wheel outside Diameter, I can extrapolate both side of the equation, and determine the minimal Ideal gear range needed to fully exploit the Ultra.
Let me know if this is something you may want to test on occasion.
Thanks
Just to share my experience with IGH Alfine 8 combined with a bafang BBSHD: awesome!
It is working without problems for about 8 months. Chainline is good. 1,5KW peak power ok. Range is more than enough for single track riding.
Only issue to take care of is the cable regulation, its very sensible so if you don't set it well it makes noises as its going to break. But once its done ok it keeps the setting for long.
So I recommend the Alfine 8 for middrives to everyone.
It is working without problems for about 8 months. Chainline is good. 1,5KW peak power ok. Range is more than enough for single track riding.
Only issue to take care of is the cable regulation, its very sensible so if you don't set it well it makes noises as its going to break. But once its done ok it keeps the setting for long.
So I recommend the Alfine 8 for middrives to everyone.
scrambler
10 kW
Thank you for that.
Let us know if you can check what is the highest gear you can start going uphill with the Ultra
Let us know if you can check what is the highest gear you can start going uphill with the Ultra
WoodlandHills
10 kW
There are two different SA 5-speeds, the newer one with the rotary shifter was designed for high torque and ebikes from the start. I used one for a few hundred miles exclusively off-road with no issues until a chain derail broke the plastic shift cable connection at the hub, something that would not have happened on the street IMHO. I only ran 1500w through it but it took it without complaint. I think I will fix it and have it laced into an appropriate rim for my recumbent and replace its Magic Pie with a BBSHD and a Phaserunner/CA3 setup, just to see what happens.
scrambler
10 kW
WoodlandHills said:
Is that the model you are speaking of?
http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/detail/rx-rk5
WoodlandHills
10 kW
Yes, the part that broke is the lever on the top right side of the hub in the photo. The rotary shift lever is what failed when the chain jumped the rear cog and hooked it.
I'm new at this, but have done a lot of research into ebikes, some of which I believe I may understand. Like others, I would definitely like to have a suitable IGH for my ebike. However, my understanding is that it is European/Asian companies the manufacture the IGHs, and 250W-350W is what their main sales area is limited to. So they really have little incentive to make an IGH that would handle 1500W. Are there any USA manufactures of IGHs? USA seems to be the country for high-powered (albeit illegal for road use) ebikes.
scrambler
10 kW
dugg914 said:
I don't know of any US manufacturer, and if indeed the power limitations in action in Europe makes it a low incentive to develop stronger IGH, Asia may be different with products like the Bafang Ultra starting to spread.
When I saw the News on SRAM terminating its production of IGH, and saying it is because of the E-bikes rise that use predominantly derailleur, I cant help but wonder if some of these people are clueless. For me it seems that ultimately the IGH should be the preferred choice on an E-bike as its only pitfall (weight and efficiency) are pretty much irrelevant on a power assisted bike.
But until the market matures further, and IGH manufacturer start to get it, we are left with little choices for strong IGH with a wide gear range.
Below is a good article on the subject in case you have not read it yet
http://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kit-igh/
Ecyclist
1 kW
I have Rohloff Speedhub, 14 Speeds on my e-bike and I can tell you that it is worth every penny I paid for it.
You can change gears from 1st to 14th in a second. After a couple of months of riding it became very smooth.
You can change gears from 1st to 14th in a second. After a couple of months of riding it became very smooth.
Drop Dead Fred
100 W
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hoojsn said:
I ordered the bike, got it in black also, upgraded the fork to a Lyrk too and got some derailleur hangers too. Thanks robocam for the color option and hangers (because yes I have broken a few). Guys, Ivy Wang is very helpful and will put up with endless emails to get it right.
Bike specs:
Definitely want to keep the bike a class 1 so will be running without a throttle!
Did 12 miles today at a 1500 vertical feet single track before the storm hits. Looking forward to getting it a trying it out.
Anyone know anywhere else to get a programing cable? Luna is out at the moment... maybe will have some when I get the bike.
robocam
10 kW
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That is a great idea, and it's actually something Ivy and I are discussing right now =)
Just a quick poll.
For the thumb throttle, do people want 100% power to be available regardless of the assist setting, as opposed to having it dependent on the assist level chosen (where full throttle in assist 1 would be lower in power than full throttle in assist 5)?
Do you want the thumb throttle to be enabled in assist level 0?
For me, it's yes to both.
Just a quick poll.
For the thumb throttle, do people want 100% power to be available regardless of the assist setting, as opposed to having it dependent on the assist level chosen (where full throttle in assist 1 would be lower in power than full throttle in assist 5)?
Do you want the thumb throttle to be enabled in assist level 0?
For me, it's yes to both.
scrambler said:
FREYebikes
100 W
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Good to see you here!
Don't worry about the cable, if you do not have cable, we will offer you when your bike is ready!
Don't worry about the cable, if you do not have cable, we will offer you when your bike is ready!
Drop Dead Fred said:
Im waiting for new 2018 Bafang motor M600
http://www.bafang-e.com/en/drive-systems/drive-system/max/m600-drive-system.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR0gFy1xIGQ
I dont need so much power and want lighter motor, shorter chainstay, narrow q factor....
Do Frey plan to make bikes with new Bafang motor?
http://www.bafang-e.com/en/drive-systems/drive-system/max/m600-drive-system.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR0gFy1xIGQ
I dont need so much power and want lighter motor, shorter chainstay, narrow q factor....
Do Frey plan to make bikes with new Bafang motor?
Drop Dead Fred
100 W
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gidooo said:
I think those are a ways out, but should be able to go into a carbon frame and save a lot of weight. Hmmm... can you say next purchase?
scrambler
10 kW
For me I don't see any reason to make the throttle dependent on the pedal assist, if you want to limit how fast the throttle goes, well, use the throttle at the level you need, this is what a throttle doesrobocam said:
So my vote is throttle should always map to 100%
The only reason I would want the throttle limited is for different power modes (like street legal and off road) so you are not tempted to go over. This would mostly apply to high powered bike, but given the Ultra is above the street legal power of 350W in Europe and 750W in the US, I would like to see two power modes on the Ultra, for the US, I would want one to be limited at 750W and one unlimited.
robocam said:
I don't really understand this distinction because I don't really see the need for assist level zero. I am not getting an E-bike not to use the electric assist, so I have no use for assist level zero.
That said, I don't see any logic in disabling the throttle because the power assit would be off. If you don't want to use the throttle, then don't, no need to have it hardcoded. It is always better to have the choice.
So my vote is also to enable the throttle at pedal assist zero.
Now side question to robocam or others with the bike.
On most bikes using the Bafang (Max or Ultra) The throttle does not work from a dead stop, you have to be going a few miles per hour before it works. This is apparently because Bafang believes throttling from a dead stop may damage the motor.
Can you confirm if the throttle on the Frey works from a dead stop, or only for a few miles per hour, and if so how many.
Note: This mat be different with Ultra using the Metal reduction gear versus the original nylon one
Completly agree with scrambler suggestions about trottle.
Also support 52V battery.
Last, reducing weight around 4-5 kg would make it a winning option. Know its not easy.
Frey, I love so much my BBSHD but in my opinion you have done almost all my wishlist!
Also support 52V battery.
Last, reducing weight around 4-5 kg would make it a winning option. Know its not easy.
Frey, I love so much my BBSHD but in my opinion you have done almost all my wishlist!
Drop Dead Fred
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scrambler said:For me I don't see any reason to make the throttle dependent on the pedal assist, if you want to limit how fast the throttle goes, well, use the throttle at the level you need, this is what a throttle doesrobocam said:
So my vote is throttle should always map to 100%
The only reason I would want the throttle limited is for different power modes (like street legal and off road) so you are not tempted to go over. This would mostly apply to high powered bike, but given the Ultra is above the street legal power of 350W in Europe and 750W in the US, I would like to see two power modes on the Ultra, for the US, I would want one to be limited at 750W and one unlimited.
robocam said:
I don't really understand this distinction because I don't really see the need for assist level zero. I am not getting an E-bike not to use the electric assist, so I have no use for assist level zero.
That said, I don't see any logic in disabling the throttle because the power assit would be off. If you don't want to use the throttle, then don't, no need to have it hardcoded. It is always better to have the choice.
So my vote is also to enable the throttle at pedal assist zero.
Now side question to robocam or others with the bike.
On most bikes using the Bafang (Max or Ultra) The throttle does not work from a dead stop, you have to be going a few miles per hour before it works. This is apparently because Bafang believes throttling from a dead stop may damage the motor.
Can you confirm if the throttle on the Frey works from a dead stop, or only for a few miles per hour, and if so how many.
Note: This mat be different with Ultra using the Metal reduction gear versus the original nylon one
I'm with Scrambler and Robocam, throttle 100% in all modes. Sometimes I actually ride in 0 just for some serious exercise
but have gotten caught and was able to throttle up a small steep incline to catch myself.FREYebikes
100 W
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If most of customers prefer full power throttle, then we can set it for you at beginning before our delivery.
Drop Dead Fred said:scrambler said:For me I don't see any reason to make the throttle dependent on the pedal assist, if you want to limit how fast the throttle goes, well, use the throttle at the level you need, this is what a throttle doesrobocam said:
So my vote is throttle should always map to 100%
The only reason I would want the throttle limited is for different power modes (like street legal and off road) so you are not tempted to go over. This would mostly apply to high powered bike, but given the Ultra is above the street legal power of 350W in Europe and 750W in the US, I would like to see two power modes on the Ultra, for the US, I would want one to be limited at 750W and one unlimited.
robocam said:
I don't really understand this distinction because I don't really see the need for assist level zero. I am not getting an E-bike not to use the electric assist, so I have no use for assist level zero.
That said, I don't see any logic in disabling the throttle because the power assit would be off. If you don't want to use the throttle, then don't, no need to have it hardcoded. It is always better to have the choice.
So my vote is also to enable the throttle at pedal assist zero.
Now side question to robocam or others with the bike.
On most bikes using the Bafang (Max or Ultra) The throttle does not work from a dead stop, you have to be going a few miles per hour before it works. This is apparently because Bafang believes throttling from a dead stop may damage the motor.
Can you confirm if the throttle on the Frey works from a dead stop, or only for a few miles per hour, and if so how many.
Note: This mat be different with Ultra using the Metal reduction gear versus the original nylon one
I'm with Scrambler and Robocam, throttle 100% in all modes. Sometimes I actually ride in 0 just for some serious exercise
FREYebikes
100 W
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I try to answer your below question:
Bafang design the motor not 0 speed to start the throttle because of security and safety consideration under an unexpected sudden start. If want to make the throttle work, must set not 0, it can be a very little number. have you got my meaning?
Bafang design the motor not 0 speed to start the throttle because of security and safety consideration under an unexpected sudden start. If want to make the throttle work, must set not 0, it can be a very little number. have you got my meaning?
FREYebikes said:scrambler said:For me I don't see any reason to make the throttle dependent on the pedal assist, if you want to limit how fast the throttle goes, well, use the throttle at the level you need, this is what a throttle doesrobocam said:
So my vote is throttle should always map to 100%
The only reason I would want the throttle limited is for different power modes (like street legal and off road) so you are not tempted to go over. This would mostly apply to high powered bike, but given the Ultra is above the street legal power of 350W in Europe and 750W in the US, I would like to see two power modes on the Ultra, for the US, I would want one to be limited at 750W and one unlimited.
robocam said:
I don't really understand this distinction because I don't really see the need for assist level zero. I am not getting an E-bike not to use the electric assist, so I have no use for assist level zero.
That said, I don't see any logic in disabling the throttle because the power assit would be off. If you don't want to use the throttle, then don't, no need to have it hardcoded. It is always better to have the choice.
So my vote is also to enable the throttle at pedal assist zero.
Now side question to robocam or others with the bike.
On most bikes using the Bafang (Max or Ultra) The throttle does not work from a dead stop, you have to be going a few miles per hour before it works. This is apparently because Bafang believes throttling from a dead stop may damage the motor.
Can you confirm if the throttle on the Frey works from a dead stop, or only for a few miles per hour, and if so how many.
Note: This mat be different with Ultra using the Metal reduction gear versus the original nylon one
FREYebikes
100 W
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Just have a quick look at your post, you done a really good job!
Can you share about your inner gear hub and battery pack info?
If the frame back is 148*12mm, is there some IGH can fit for or how it is possible to match? and what cell do you make the battery pack?
Thank you!
Can you share about your inner gear hub and battery pack info?
If the frame back is 148*12mm, is there some IGH can fit for or how it is possible to match? and what cell do you make the battery pack?
Thank you!
Ecyclist said:
robocam
10 kW
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robocam
10 kW
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Dropping that much weight would make it lighter than a carbon fiber Specialized Levo, but we can dream =) The Luna Cycle Apex weighs 65-75 lbs, which is about the same as the Frey at 67.4 lbs, and it's made out of carbon fiber. I'm very glad the Frey is made out of aluminum because I just don't trust carbon fiber. My friend has a Yeti SB6c, and the seat tube developed a crack. He doesn't even ride hard.
Robleman said:
Drop Dead Fred
100 W
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robocam said:
I can tell you that my BBSHD will start from 0, and if you bump it the bike takes off really easy with no rider!
I've also bumped it climbing some tough technical, really throws you off on those too. But hey all part of the experience, right.
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