Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

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stancecoke
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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by stancecoke » Jan 21, 2018 9:41 am

honya96 wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 9:19 am
I am going to try it right now.
I've just updated the java tool, so you can use it.
The displayed power won't be correct, until we found the right value for Battery Current cal a for your controller.
In the recent code the correct power is only displayed for Battery Current cal a = 10, but's no problem to improve the code to show the right power for any Battery Current cal a value.
I found, that the LCD3 has a very low resolution for the current, just 0.5 A. So, for 2.01 and 2.5 A, the same power will be displayed, for example...

The speed display only works with an external sensor at the moment...
And the direction detection is not implemented yet, so the motor will start, if you are pulling the bike in reverse in the torquesimulation mode.

regards
stancecoke
Last edited by stancecoke on Jan 21, 2018 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Jan 21, 2018 10:02 am

casainho wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 9:39 am
honya96 wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 9:16 am
geofft wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 8:40 am

Not sure if this of any help, or how much these results relate to the rather different characteristics of your motor - but if you need any more tests done then just let me know.. :)
Thanks, I think it confirms my problem.. for Casainho so he knows there is a bug. :wink:

@Casainho - no need to hurry with this issue, I can get the speed I want by setting wrong P1, then just the displayed speed is wrong.
I am lost here: can you please resume?
I understand that your motor is direct drive, with 46 magnets and you set P1 = 46, which is ok.
simply said, if you set low P1 value you dont get full motor rpm. even when display is set at 72 you get less.

no one will notice with gear motor but direct has lower P1 so you dont get full motor rpm until you set P1 higher, then you get full rpm range but wrong speed reading

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Jan 21, 2018 10:20 am

honya96 wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 10:02 am
simply said, if you set low P1 value you dont get full motor rpm. even when display is set at 72 you get less.

no one will notice with gear motor but direct has lower P1 so you dont get full motor rpm until you set P1 higher, then you get full rpm range but wrong speed reading
Ok, now I understand. And the code that uses P1 value and sets the max speed for motor conttoller, may have a bug and here is the code -- I need to think about it:

Code: Select all


  // (ui8_max_speed * 1000 * (ui8_motor_characteristic / 2)) / (3600 * f_wheel_size)
  ui32_temp = ((uint32_t) lcd_configuration_variables->ui8_max_speed) * 1000; // in meters/hour
  ui32_temp *= ((uint32_t) (lcd_configuration_variables->ui8_motor_characteristic >> 1));
  f_temp = 3600.0 * f_wheel_perimeter;
  f_temp = ((float) ui32_temp) / f_temp;
  motor_controller_set_speed_erps_max ((uint16_t) f_temp);
I think that code works well.
For a 46 magnets motor like yours, for a wheel of 26'' and wheel speed of 25km/h, the max erps will be: 77.
For a Q85 geared motor, for a wheel of 26'' and wheel speed of 25km/h, the max erps will be: 343.
That is a big difference... and that value will set the variable ui16_target_erps and on the speed controller MOTOR_SPEED_CONTROLLER_KP:

Code: Select all

  i16_error = ui16_target_erps - i16_motor_speed_erps;
  i16_output = i16_error * MOTOR_SPEED_CONTROLLER_KP;
the i16_error in speed will be multiplied for the constant K MOTOR_SPEED_CONTROLLER_KP. A geared motor will always a bigger output value on that calculation...
The ratio is: 343 / 77 = 4.54. So, you can edit on main.h file and change from 2 to 9 or maybe even a little higher value:

Code: Select all

#define MOTOR_SPEED_CONTROLLER_KP 2 // x << 5
Last edited by casainho on Jan 21, 2018 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Jan 21, 2018 10:28 am

@stancecoke - I am getting an error
Attachments
log.txt
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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by geofft » Jan 21, 2018 10:34 am

casainho wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 9:34 am
@geofft: nice that you got the training bike roller, would be great if you could put a constant speed and adjust the value for FOC_READ_ID_CURRENT_ANGLE_ADJUST. Can you please share with us how was the process and the final value for your motor?
I've tried this with an old-fashioned crt 'scope :-
FOC angle scope trace.jpg
FOC angle scope trace.jpg (55.45 KiB) Viewed 250 times
..this gave a 'rough' result for my (Q128H) motor of about 150 degrees. I've treated myself to a DS212 DSO however, should be able to give a better figure when that arrives... :wink:
Last edited by geofft on Jan 21, 2018 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
BBS02 V2 48v 750w, 12s lipo.
Q128H (36v 201rpm), KT36/48SVPR 20amp, LCD3, 48v 12s lipo.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by stancecoke » Jan 21, 2018 10:42 am

honya96 wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 10:28 am
@stancecoke - I am getting an error
I've fixed it, just a few minutes ago :wink:
Please download the branch again!

regards
stancecoke

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Jan 21, 2018 10:51 am

stancecoke wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 10:42 am
honya96 wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 10:28 am
@stancecoke - I am getting an error
I've fixed it, just a few minutes ago :wink:
Please download the branch again!

regards
stancecoke
measured 1,564v for cal B(before, the high value was the second controller), so I have set -320

after flashing the fw, motor started to run itself and power on lcd jumping between 40-1999w

how to set correct cal A?

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Jan 21, 2018 10:56 am

@ stancecoke, can you send me the link to how to set values in osec config tool? I can translate to english and explain for beginners :wink: (like me) later you can add them to the tool.

edit: so there is not that much to explain, and google translates it well. + automatic calculations can be added to tool, so maybe its not worth redoing now

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Jan 21, 2018 11:21 am

tried unplugging throttle, so its not wrong throttle min value.

First thing I noticed is better than on main branch, turning off lcd while running motor is ok. with main branch it stops the motor fast.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by stancecoke » Jan 21, 2018 11:25 am

honya96 wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 10:51 am
measured 1,564v for cal B(before, the high value was the second controller), so I have set -320
after flashing the fw, motor started to run itself and power on lcd jumping between 40-1999w
how to set correct cal A?
Ah, a good sign!
First you have to decrease the cal b step by step until the motor isn't running at startup, values from -310 to -312 are usual. If you found the right value, please make some measurements with Battery Current max set to

First: 10-Battery Current cal b (example for Battery Current cal b =-318: 10-(-318) = 328)
Second: 20-Battery Current cal b
Third: 30-Battery Current cal b

leaving the Battery Current cal a value at the default value of 10

Then run the motor with full throttle and look at the current it's drawing and post the values of Battery Current max and the found current. Than we can calculate the right value for Battery Current cal a

Edit: You will have to put load on the wheel, to get the full current...

The german wiki can be found here:
https://www.pedelecforum.de/wiki/doku.p ... _java_tool

The new parameters are not described, yet, but I think, they are self-explaining.

regards
stancecoke

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Jan 21, 2018 12:13 pm

328 gives about 1,75A. sometimes the motor does not start slowly by throttle, but there is a delay and then hard pull. :shock:
338 gives 2,7-3,0
348 about 4A
Last edited by honya96 on Jan 21, 2018 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by stancecoke » Jan 21, 2018 12:20 pm

honya96 wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 12:13 pm
sometimes the motor does not start slowly by throttle, but there is a delay and then hard pull. :shock:
What was the right value for Battery Current cal b?
If Battery Current cal b is not set properly, the integral part of the PI-controller runs into nirvana with the time, then you get this delayed reaction on throttle...

regards
stancecoke
Last edited by stancecoke on Jan 21, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Jan 21, 2018 12:22 pm

stancecoke wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 12:20 pm
What was the right value for Battery Current cal b?

we need at least 3 pairs of values for Battery Current max and the refering current, to get a reliable value for Battery Current cal a

regards
stancecoke
cal b set -312

edit -311 starts weird, -313 also doesnt run the motor at startup but I feel like its still putting too much force after releasing throttle

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by stancecoke » Jan 21, 2018 12:36 pm

so, Excel says, that cal a has to be 8.87 and cal b -312.7

Currentsensor Calibration.PNG
Currentsensor Calibration.PNG (7.74 KiB) Viewed 225 times
Battery Current cal a =9
Battery Current cal b =-312

should be proper values.

If you set Battery Current max to 10*9-(-312) = 402 you will get 10 A maximum current.
I have to improve the code, to have the right power displayed, but that won't be a problem :wink:
honya96 wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 12:22 pm
edit -311 starts weird, -313 also doesnt run the motor at startup but I feel like its still putting too much force after releasing throttle
can you check if the bad behavoiur occurs after longer brakes and doesn't occur, if you accelerate again, just after the motor stopped?
Perhaps you should post a video for diagnaosics.

regards
stancecoke

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Jan 21, 2018 1:10 pm

geofft wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 10:34 am
I've tried this with an old-fashioned crt 'scope :-
..this gave a 'rough' result for my (Q128H) motor of about 150 degrees.
I am not sure about that process of scope, I never validated, but it is interesting to see different results. Now that you have the bike training roller, you can put a constant load on the motor and adjust:

Code: Select all

// This value at 127 is the default but a value a bit higher or lower my improve the controller efficiency
// This value can be tested with motor running at medium speed, where it is already running with sinewave interpolation (not at startup)
// A way to test: put the motor with the same mechanical load (like on a bike training roller) and with a constant speed
// changing this value will make the motor to need more or less current to mantain the same speed -- adjust to use the least current possible
// A value of FOC_READ_ID_CURRENT_ANGLE_ADJUST = 137 was found to be a good one for BMSBattery Q85 motor with S06S controller
#define FOC_READ_ID_CURRENT_ANGLE_ADJUST 137
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Jan 21, 2018 1:32 pm

stancecoke wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 12:36 pm

can you check if the bad behavoiur occurs after longer brakes and doesn't occur, if you accelerate again, just after the motor stopped?
Perhaps you should post a video for diagnaosics.
Its ok now, seen that just a few times with wrong cal b. Thanks for the values.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Jan 21, 2018 1:34 pm

Code: Select all

  // (ui8_max_speed * 1000 * (ui8_motor_characteristic / 2)) / (3600 * f_wheel_size)
  ui32_temp = ((uint32_t) lcd_configuration_variables->ui8_max_speed) * 1000; // in meters/hour
  ui32_temp *= ((uint32_t) (lcd_configuration_variables->ui8_motor_characteristic >> 1));
  f_temp = 3600.0 * f_wheel_perimeter;
  f_temp = ((float) ui32_temp) / f_temp;
  motor_controller_set_speed_erps_max ((uint16_t) f_temp);
I think that code works well.
For a 46 magnets motor like yours, for a wheel of 26'' and wheel speed of 25km/h, the max erps will be: 77.
For a Q85 geared motor, for a wheel of 26'' and wheel speed of 25km/h, the max erps will be: 343.
That is a big difference... and that value will set the variable ui16_target_erps and on the speed controller MOTOR_SPEED_CONTROLLER_KP:

Code: Select all

  i16_error = ui16_target_erps - i16_motor_speed_erps;
  i16_output = i16_error * MOTOR_SPEED_CONTROLLER_KP;
the i16_error in speed will be multiplied for the constant K MOTOR_SPEED_CONTROLLER_KP. A geared motor will always a bigger output value on that calculation...
The ratio is: 343 / 77 = 4.54. So, you can edit on main.h file and change from 2 to 9 or maybe even a little higher value:

Code: Select all

#define MOTOR_SPEED_CONTROLLER_KP 2 // x << 5
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Jan 21, 2018 1:53 pm

I dont know what to do now, my 14s battery on the big bike is blowing 60v mosfets with main branch so I dont want to test it with the 6fet again, and I am not confident enough to risk the 18fet yet. now It has 3 shunts (can the cal a,b be set for this?) otherwise stock so like 60A max (limited by wires and traces) It has KTE-18S5-A board, 100A phase current sensor(on 12fet its 50A). only 4 things I like about running stock fw is light switch from lcd, cruise from lcd, functional reverse switch wires (great for heavy bike) and that it doesnt pull any power after releasing throttle. maybe I will just order spare 18fet tomorow so I still have one stock just in case :D

@ Stancecoke, do you think I will get that running? flashing connector is ready :twisted:

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Jan 21, 2018 2:08 pm

casainho wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 1:34 pm
So, you can edit on main.h file and change from 2 to 9 or maybe even a little higher value:
Thanks, I will try when I get back to testing main branch

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by geofft » Jan 21, 2018 2:30 pm

casainho wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 1:10 pm
geofft wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 10:34 am
I've tried this with an old-fashioned crt 'scope :-
..this gave a 'rough' result for my (Q128H) motor of about 150 degrees.
I am not sure about that process of scope, I never validated, but it is interesting to see different results. Now that you have the bike training roller, you can put a constant load on the motor and adjust:
Ok, I'll try that sometime next week, will be interesting to see if it agrees with the oscilloscope result.
BBS02 V2 48v 750w, 12s lipo.
Q128H (36v 201rpm), KT36/48SVPR 20amp, LCD3, 48v 12s lipo.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Jan 21, 2018 3:25 pm

casainho wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 1:34 pm

Code: Select all

  // (ui8_max_speed * 1000 * (ui8_motor_characteristic / 2)) / (3600 * f_wheel_size)
  ui32_temp = ((uint32_t) lcd_configuration_variables->ui8_max_speed) * 1000; // in meters/hour
  ui32_temp *= ((uint32_t) (lcd_configuration_variables->ui8_motor_characteristic >> 1));
  f_temp = 3600.0 * f_wheel_perimeter;
  f_temp = ((float) ui32_temp) / f_temp;
  motor_controller_set_speed_erps_max ((uint16_t) f_temp);
I think that code works well.
For a 46 magnets motor like yours, for a wheel of 26'' and wheel speed of 25km/h, the max erps will be: 77.
For a Q85 geared motor, for a wheel of 26'' and wheel speed of 25km/h, the max erps will be: 343.
That is a big difference... and that value will set the variable ui16_target_erps and on the speed controller MOTOR_SPEED_CONTROLLER_KP:

Code: Select all

  i16_error = ui16_target_erps - i16_motor_speed_erps;
  i16_output = i16_error * MOTOR_SPEED_CONTROLLER_KP;
the i16_error in speed will be multiplied for the constant K MOTOR_SPEED_CONTROLLER_KP. A geared motor will always a bigger output value on that calculation...
The ratio is: 343 / 77 = 4.54. So, you can edit on main.h file and change from 2 to 9 or maybe even a little higher value:

Code: Select all

#define MOTOR_SPEED_CONTROLLER_KP 2 // x << 5
All this made me thinking that, doing the speed controller to control the motor ERPS (i16_motor_speed_erps) and having such big difference of that value for different motors, for the same wheel speed like 20km/h, seems not a very good idea.
Maybe the best is to instead control the wheel speed, that is independent of each motor characteristic (and even each wheel size). Still, the MOTOR_OVER_SPEED_ERPS needs to be controlled and is the same for every motor -- maybe can be controlled on fast loop, by reducing the duty_cycle every time motor speed > MOTOR_OVER_SPEED_ERPS.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Jan 21, 2018 3:28 pm

Github user butchja (someone that seems to had register on github just to write this issue) wrote an interesting issue about improving battery reading and optimize the power output:

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... /issues/25
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Jan 21, 2018 4:33 pm

casainho wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 3:28 pm
Github user butchja (someone that seems to had register on github just to write this issue) wrote an interesting issue about improving battery reading and optimize the power output:

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... /issues/25
"The internal resistance should be comensated so a greater range can be achieved" ???

It has nothing to do with battery level monitor but with some smart soft cut-off LVC which will lower your max amps when you start getting close to lvc voltage. Even just in theory its not easy because someone can have sag of half the usable voltage range and someone less than a volt with lipo so it will never help him.

Even with Adaptto - a really expensive controller. The soft cut-off didnt work 100% with my weak battery. Under high load it hit the lvc too fast so it just cut the power and applied back. But when not using 7kw but just 1kw down to empty battery, then it started lowering the power so I was able to get home everytime. Even just 100w walking speed at exact lvc voltage. But that way I have never run out of juice totaly, far from home

For the battery monitor, as I mentioned before, its enough to refresh only when no power applied to motor. So you go with full battery, 20km straight without ever releasing throttle, then wonder "whats my capacity left?" You release throttle, wait a second or less just so the no load voltage stabilizes. And then it changes from full (last remembered value) to 2 bars for example.

I guess it will also use less processing power than when its still jumping depending on load.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Jan 21, 2018 4:38 pm

honya96 wrote:
Jan 21, 2018 4:33 pm
For the battery monitor, as I mentioned before, its enough to refresh only when no power applied to motor. So you go with full battery, 20km straight without ever releasing throttle, then wonder "whats my capacity left?" You release throttle, wait a second or less just so the no load voltage stabilizes. And then it changes from full (last remembered value) to 2 bars for example.

I guess it will also use less processing power than when its still jumping depending on load.
I added this idea to that issue.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by geofft » Jan 21, 2018 4:39 pm

The issue of battery voltage sag under load is well known and documented, I think honya suggested this method of checking battery voltage only in off-load moments a few pages ago in this thread. My battery indicator (lcd3 display) is very accurate (after tinkering with the lookup table in main.h) but will often drop a battery bar beneath the true reading whilst under load and then recover when the load is removed.
I don't see this as any great problem, it's fairly obvious what's happening when you see it. It's just a minor issue really, maybe something that could be improved in the future when the major items in the code are working well.
BBS02 V2 48v 750w, 12s lipo.
Q128H (36v 201rpm), KT36/48SVPR 20amp, LCD3, 48v 12s lipo.

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