LightningRods mid drive kit

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jan 08, 2018 3:49 pm

A. If I remember from when I was checking the Cyclone out to see if I was interested in it (I wasn’t) the planetary reduction is around 6:1. The primary stage of reduction on my standard mid drives ranges from 3:1 to 5:1 depending on which combination of sprockets or pulleys you use.

B. You can buy a Lightning Rods drive from me. PM me here, or go to my online store. lightning-rods10.mybigcommerce.com
Bullfrog wrote:
Jan 08, 2018 11:57 am

A. What is the overall reduction between the motor and the output shaft of the Lightning Rod Small Block and the Cyclone (if you know it)?

B. Where can I buy the lightning rod kits?
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jan 08, 2018 4:02 pm

I really like belt drive, a lot, but there are limitations. Trying to get 8:1 reduction in one stage is really difficult with a belt. Getting big reduction in one stage requires a big difference between the driver and driven. This means teensy driver and huge driven. Small drivers have fewer teeth engaged in the belt and are more prone to skipping under load. Using a huge driven opens up the angle of the belt and disengages even more teeth. You can use idlers and other tricks to mitigate some of this but there is still a limit. Going to a coarse tooth pitch like an M8 to increase the torque capacity of the belt just aggravates the huge size of the driven pulley. An M8 pulley is more than 50% larger than an M5.

My personal dream swingarm drive is a two stage belt. 25mm wide M8 GT2 with a low 2:1 first stage and 4:1 second stage for 8:1 overall.

Motorcycles have more room in the frame and swingarm for belt drives because they don’t have to worry about clearing the swing arm with the crank swings or maintaining a Q-factor that won’t turn riders into bow legged cowboys.

I’m with the belt fans on clean, quiet operation, low maintenance and long life.
Powervelocity.com wrote:
Jan 08, 2018 1:25 pm
Making this a one stage belt drive would be perfect in my book, but I understand the challenges retrofitting a wider belt on existing frames. Keeping it very simple, with as few gears as possible.

A custom swingarm could be the way to go. Actually, a custom swingarm with a belt drive compatible with most frames is what I am thinking.
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Powervelocity.com » Jan 08, 2018 7:42 pm

Yep, will have to ditch the pedals to accommodate the belt.

Gotta be a reason belts are used on gas-powered motorcycles with great success. Electric motors are not that much different from this perspective. Well, minus transmission. All we need is transfer the torque from the motor to the wheel and make sure to gear it in the way that it will spin in the most efficient RPM range at least 50% of the time (thinking cruising speed of 40 mph).

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Last edited by Powervelocity.com on Jan 09, 2018 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jan 08, 2018 8:08 pm

That’s a pretty perfect illustration. In the case of the Zero S motorcycle the controller draws 550 amps and the final drive ratio is only 4.6:1. So massive torque and relatively little reduction. With a 28 tooth M8 driver the Zero’s belt can take a lot of power. That idler on the slack side improves the belt angle at the driver and engages more teeth.

Getting rid of the pedals and making it a motorcycle makes it easy. The frame and swingarm can be as wide as necessary.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Hellscreeper » Jan 24, 2018 11:43 am

Hey Lightning rods,
I like the look of your new two stage mid drive. I like i so much. I want to buy it for my new built with red internal plates and black chain ring and external plates in anodized aluminum parts.
My frame is a knolly delirium-t 2008. Can you show me if the mid drive can fit on the bike and what he look like with your mid drive on.
Thanks in advance!
Luc

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jan 24, 2018 12:30 pm

Hi Luc,

I did a couple of Photoshop composites to scale. The 2 stage drive fits your bike great.

Image

Part of the fitment test is to bottom the front forks and see if the tire still clears. You have good clearance.

Image

The mounting plates are aluminum and can be anodized pretty much any color you want. The chainwheel and reduction sprockets are stainless steel for better wear than aluminum. I've read that there is a blackening chemical for stainless steel but I haven't tried it.

Thanks for writing! I'm glad that you like the drive. It's working really well. Are you thinking Small Block or Big Block?
Mike
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Hellscreeper » Jan 24, 2018 1:17 pm

Wow! Thanks for the ultra fast answer. That going to be a nice match.

The small block 3000w motor will be enough power for my need, im going to use a 52v battery in a back pack.
Im not ready to buy it right now. but i want to buy a ready to run plug and play setup with 12fets controller and a cycle analyst v3.

I want something special if that possible, can you make me some machined red aluminum braket to fix the controller to the down tube in front of the motor and maybe a plate box to hide the wires between the controller and the motor.
Thanks!
Luc

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Hellscreeper » Jan 24, 2018 1:30 pm

here a picture of my bike, i got a 24inch rear wheel and 26 front. I dont know the speed i can get with a 24 rear wheel? but with a bigger rear drive chainring i like to attain 40kmh with a 11 tooths rear sproket. Is that possible? (sorry for my english)
IMG_20180122_143133160.jpg

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jan 24, 2018 2:39 pm

We can make either a laser cut sheet aluminum front mount/controller mount or machine something out of billet aluminum.

Top speed is only dictated by the rear wheel sprocket if you want to be pedaling along at that speed. The cyclist's limited rpm is the issue with making a lot of speed. If you gear the electric motor to run faster rpm than you can pedal you could do 40km/hr on a 24t rear sprocket or whatever you decide. Running on the rear wheel 11t is not the best idea because it doesn't handle the torque of an electric motor very well.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Hellscreeper » Jan 24, 2018 3:13 pm

I realy want something like you described to mount my controller, money is not a problem i want something unique and cool looking.

I know the 11t sproket is not a good gear to use with a powerfull middrive. i ask about that to calculate the top-speed of the bike with a smaller rear wheel, i dont want a bike with 25kmh max speed. but if you can change the motor gearing directly on the drive to my taste, that mean more customisation i like that idea to choose my top speed.

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jan 24, 2018 5:36 pm

There is a huge amount of flexibility in the gearing on the drive. I can gear the drive so that it will run to the power limit with your 24” rear wheel. On a small block @ 52v that will be around 55 kph.

Let me know when you’re ready. The closer we get to Spring and Summer the busier I’ll be.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by Hellscreeper » Jan 24, 2018 6:03 pm

55kmh on the 11t seem to be perfect to me so i can go to 40kmh maybe between the 15 and the 17 tooths sprokets, and 10kmh on the 32t to climb trees lol.
I think im going to be ready to send you my first deposit or the total in 4 to 6 weeks. How much you ask for a deposit to start the fabrication?

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by bchampig » Jan 24, 2018 7:35 pm

My winter project was designing some 3d printed covers for the LR single stage. I’m very happy with the result. Printed in PETG on a Prusa printer. Next, I’m working on a seatpost mounted battery holder for the 12S Lipos I run.
D300F021-2917-4B58-BA6A-6A03E11E87A3.jpeg
0B5410ED-76F1-4878-AAC4-2091685AD96B.jpeg

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by spinningmagnets » Jan 24, 2018 7:41 pm

My winter project was designing some 3D printed covers for the LR single stage
Very professional looking! What design and slicer program did you use? I am considering learning Blender or Fusion 360...I haven't even taken my 3D printer out of its box...

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by bchampig » Jan 24, 2018 7:55 pm

I taught myself Fusion 360. Still much to learn, but I fumbled my way through it. Can’t beat the price...free for hobbyists.

For a slicer, I use a combination of Slic3r, and Simplify3D. I wish I could settle on one, but they each have advantages.

thanks for the compliment on the bike....it was a ton of work.

regards,
Brian

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by LightningRods » Jan 24, 2018 8:26 pm

Brian,
Really nice work! I have something similar planned for the sprocket guard. I’m going to stay completely behind the aluminum guard with the plastic but it will add sides to the guard as you have. Chain lube likes to fly off of the driver sprocket and make a mess.
I’ve been paying a friend to print my 3D models so that I can make molds of the patterns. I’m going to buy my own printer in the next couple of months. The quality keeps getting better and the price keeps coming down so I’ve been procrastinating. At some point you just have to jump in.
Thanks for sharing your work. I love to see people making creative improvements.
Mike
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

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Re: LightningRods mid drive kit

Post by bchampig » Jan 24, 2018 10:01 pm

Thanks Mike,

I’m really enjoying the 3D printer. I got it right before Christmas specifically for making ebike parts. It has become a great hobby to get me through the New Hampshire winter. Like you, I have been following the 3d printer industry fir several years and finally felt the price/performance is now good enough to jump in. I will warn you...it is addicting!

I can’t wait to get out on the bike this Spring....it runs great with the 12fet controller. I’m still considering a bigger motor in the future. Do you still sell the midsize motor...the one between the small block and big block? That might be Ok with my current controller and give me a nice power boost. Also, have you tried a smaller chain than a 219? I’m wondering if a finer pitch setup would be strong enough and noticably quieter?

regards,
Brian

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