first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

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drc   10 mW

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first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by drc » Jan 23 2018 5:01pm

Hello all, what a great forum that you have here.
I will firstly start this post by saying I don't have a great technical understanding of electronics I have tried to teach myself but no matter how much I read I can't get past the basic stages so please bear with me. So if I could get some simple help and guidance on how best I can improve my scooters performance this would be muchly appricated.

I have this scooter

https://www.funbikes.co.uk/p4523_chaos- ... rd-scooter

Since ownership I have made some small changes to it adding a better seat and seat post , covering the deck with grip tape and adding a slightly smaller pinion gear (10t) to help lug my 270lb 6"4 self around . Overall I'm like the scooter and when it hits its top speed of 25mph it's great. But I now feel I want more excitement in the form of acceleration and speed . So the SLA battery is 48v and I have had good run times of around 10 miles with out running the battery down to far but again more is always prefered.

So the aim for me is to buy "bolt on " upgrades that will vastly improve torque and speed whilst maintaining at least the range I'm currently getting and budget is something I want to keep in the forefront of my mind.

I have seen li-ion 48v 20ah batteries from China that are at a fair price that would be I step up in all of the above .

So 1. would a 2000w boma motor be advised ( or keep the stock 1600w as I understand these will take more amps that the stock controller provides/ limits)

2. The appropriate controller ( what options are available ? I see the Kelly controllers are widely used)

3. fit and run a 60 or 72v li-ion pack ( recommended Chinese supplier ) and simply instal and enjoy?

When I have posted this I will continue to look over the forum for information.

I'm a mechanically minded guy with several successful project car builds over the decades so I do have some level ability . I just don't know really where to start .Thank you in advance for your suggestions and I will try my best to answer any questions.

Daniel
From a cold and wet UK

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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by drc » Jan 23 2018 6:45pm

From the info I have pulled so far the simplest and cheapest would be to buy a Kelly controller although I don't know which one as I'm unsure what the highest level of amps I could ask of the stock motor would be. Then follow this with a good lipo / li-ion set up . Would 72v be to much for the motor or would 60v better as I see I could get more cells in and gain a bit more capacity .

Cheers

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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by Buk___ » Jan 24 2018 1:01am

drc wrote:
Jan 23 2018 5:01pm
I have this scooter

...

From a cold and wet UK
Where do you ride it? I didn't think powered scooters were allowed anywhere in the UK?

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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by drc » Jan 24 2018 3:12am

Hi there , I live in a vilage outside of Leicester where not a lot ever happens and I have little bit land attached to our home . Have you done anything to your scooter?

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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 24 2018 10:24pm

I saw your PM and am posting here.

I remember being you and having only 3 posts. People that have like 13,000 posts...well that takes quite a few years to do! I've been active since Nov 2015 and I'm only at 1400 posts so far and it is common that I post every day.

So then to your questions.

1. you want more speed
2. you want more torque

How to get that.
1. Get rid of those heavy, low power SLA batteries.
2. Get a stronger motor controller
3. Get a stronger battery pack
4. Get a stronger motor

So lets go through those 4 items one at a time...
NOTE: You have a cheap Chinese scooter. I have one of these same machines, but with larger wheels and tires. Otherwise the construction is virtually identical to yours. "cheap Chinese" explains many things about these scooters!

1. SLA batteries are enormous, heavy and cheap compared to the same capacity and voltage in LIPO or LION batteries. For the same space and 30% of the weight, you can do LIPO and triple or more the total capacity you have. SLA is the worst battery technology available today. Even NiCad is better!

2. The controller in your scooter is the bottom of the barrel for quality. They work, but just barely. contact PowerVelocity on ES and get a 12 fet controller from him. I help develop these controllers, but I personally make no profit from my efforts. However, they are pretty nice and far better than whatever you will find on ebay or what is currently in your scooter. I have 5 of the PV controllers right now and am about to buy 3 more. I think they are pretty nice! Also, they are highly hackable so that's good for you! The 12 fet controllers he sells are good up to 100 volts and 2600 watts. With a few inexpensive mods, they can do 4000 watts. Ask for one with the AOT290 mosfet and a telemetry module. That's an excellent starting point! I'll tell you more about controllers some other time and more about why you want a PV controller.

3. LIPO is the cheapest lithium battery option and you get a lot of bang for the buck. It's not as good as LION for life span or weight vs capacity, but you can get RC LIPO packs just about anywhere and build yourself a pack that meets your needs with relative ease. Looking at what you want to do, you are going to want to buy 10, 10,000mah 4S Multistar packs. You want 20S or 82 volts, so if that means 5 4S packs or 4 5S packs...either will work, just get which ever pack is cheaper per mah. Expect to drop a few hundred dollars. Batteries are not cheap! If you buy 5S packs then you need 8 of them. If you buy 4S packs, then you need 10 of them. The idea is to get you a decent amount of capacity so that you can ride 20 miles or more per charge at higher wattage's on your scooter. With this number of packs you will have 2 sets of 20S in parallel so that you have about 20,000mah of capacity. That will also give you lots of current which you need for lots of motor torque.

4. Your motor at 82 volts is going to top out at 38mph on level ground with ideal gearing. I know becasue that's what I got with the same motor on a similar load. You won't see magical improvements beyond that. However the PV controller has a feature called flux weakening that can make your top speed a bit higher...maybe 40mph. If you really want more speed and torque, that really means a stronger motor. Find one of the 2000 watt motors. They are externally identical to the motor you have, but inside the case, they have larger magnets and stators. Externally they will bolt right in with no modification to your scooter. With the bigger motor, you can get almost 50mph at 82 volts and acceleration is noticeably better.

If you really want a strong scooter that is fast, you need to get away from the BOMA inrunners. They are cheap, poorly designed and poorly made. There are far better choices that weigh far less, are much smaller, don't cost a fortune and destroy the best BOMA...such as the Alien Power C80100 outrunner.

This is a 2kw BOMA on the left with added heat sink fins and ported end plates to maximize cooling. As a result it's 1/2" larger than it really is, but still you can see that it is a lot larger than a C80100 which is good for 7kw as is. The C80100 weighs almost half as much as the BOMA, costs a mere $100 more and delivers 3.5X more power. How is any of that bad? With motors bigger is not always better.

Image
Image
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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by Chalo » Jan 24 2018 10:42pm

Wow, I was thinking 25mph was pretty fast/scary fast for a plank riding on tiny donut wheels, but 38mph seems like trouble. It's a lot to ask of some very small contact patches.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 25 2018 8:18pm

Chalo wrote:
Jan 24 2018 10:42pm
Wow, I was thinking 25mph was pretty fast/scary fast for a plank riding on tiny donut wheels, but 38mph seems like trouble. It's a lot to ask of some very small contact patches.
25 yawn...slow as Christmas!

His EV wont have a problem with 40+! Peice of cake!

This does 45 on 12.5x2.5" tires. It's all of 48" long and weighs 75 pounds.

Image

This does 60 on 3.00x10 tires and is 52" long and weighs 120 pounds.

Image
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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 25 2018 9:57pm

Give me the measurements for your battery bay. I'm pretty sure they are the same as mine. Those packs I suggested are an exact fit for my battery bay. It was part of why I suggested using multistar packs.

LION is better than LIPO...or can be if the cells are current technology. With LION you will always get more charge cycles than LIPO, but depending on the cells used, capacity and discharge rates in LION varies a lot. With LIPO packs, it's right there on each pack so kind of hard to get confused.

IF I had my druthers, always get LION, but be picky about the cell type. It's better battery tech than LIPO. A custom pack is not a bad plan. Just be specific about the details so you get what you want.

The samsung 30Q is a great cell for EV's...3000mah and 15 amps per cell is a pretty decent in 18650. You PM'd me a LION pack price of $450. You said 72 volts. I don't know how many cells that is. 72 volts can mean lots of things. You want a 20S pack. At full charge that is 82 volts. At nominal charge that's about 72 volts and fully run down it's about 60 volts. You see what I mean about pack voltage? I want to know how many cells in series I am getting. I also want to know how many cells in parallel and what cell is being used. A lot of Chinese packs are made from some craptastic Chinese cell and a lot are made from legit cells such as the real Samsung 30Q. If you are going to buy a good quality pack, then this sort of thing needs to be openly available information. You should get what you pay for and get what you want.

Something else to consider is the new LION cell format or 21700. They are physically a little larger than an 18650, but the extra space means per cell capacity is higher too. I'm evaluating the INR21700-48G cells from Samsung right now. They are rated at 4800mah per cell. It's not the best option for EV's since it's a 1C discharge rate cell. There are other options that are better for EV use. Tesla is moving to this cell format as quickly as they can. That ought to tell you how much potential they see in it. Elon Musk is no idiot!

If I were you and you can afford it, get a pack that's 20S made of 30Q cells. I'd have to figure out how many cells that works out to that can fit in your battery bay, but fill the back 70% or so with a pack. You want to be able to fit the controller and a few other things in there too. I'd make the pack be as large as I can possibly fit so that I get the most range and capacity possible. BE sure your pack can deliver at least 30% more current than you need. I never go that low. Double or more is my minimum. The blue scooter maxes at 60 amps, so I have 180 amps of capability. The Currie needs just short of 50 amps max, I can do 120 amps. The moped needs 70 amps, I can do 160 amps. you get the idea. Think much bigger than you expected current needs right now. Also, you might mod the scooter for more power later and you'll need that extra current delivery.

This is my Currie scooter battery bay. There is no way to put a larger pack in here! It runs at 4kw at the battery and will do 45mph and accelerates VERY nicely. It uses a C80100 outrunner. If you crank the throttle at anything like 0-20mph, expect the front end to come off the ground and you are laying on the ground behind the scooter.I always lean forward before I hit the throttle! I have the throttle set to maximum delay and maximum soft start so that taking off from a stop is comfortable. I wanted a fast and powerful small scooter so I built it that way. Since this scooter is so small and it's size wheels were never intended for this much power, I went through several sets of tires to find ones that would hold up to the motor torque. Then the wheels were a problem. The original rims were spokes and I broke spokes. Lots of these little scooters use a cheap cast wheel, that cracked and then I found some much better cast wheels. They are doing really well. Still...the back tire will spin on the rim. The bead can't get enough grip to the rim to hold the torque. I have used contact cement to glue the bead to the rim and that has been working well. A big battery makes that possible!

Image

I mentioned earlier about getting away from BOMA inrunners. They are heavy, weak, inefficient and poorly made motors. They do work however and so tossing it in the trash is not going to happen. IF it suites your purposes and expectations, by all means, keep using it.

So then, lets talk about easy modding. Swapping in a 2kw BOMA is easy. Unbolt the existing motor and drop in the more powerful BOMA motor...easy peazy and you are done. Even the flimsy T8F chain will handle this motor even when over watted considerably.

LEt's talk about more difficult modding. If you want real power and speed, then you need to go with something better and that means modding. You will need to move to 219 chain and 219 sprockets. You will need a much better motor such as the C80100. The C80100 motor will need some modding so that you can drive from the shaft reliably. All of this creates new challenges, but they are readily overcome. You will need to replace the wheel sprocket and change the way the motor mounts in some way to accommodate the stronger motor and different motor bolt placement. Go look at my Currie build thread for ideas about motor mounting and what you might need to do.

Go here to see what I do to outrunners to make them EV capable and reliable.
Reinforcing motor bell to shaft on outrunners: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 30&t=90264

My blue scooter ran on a BOMA 2kw motor that I eventually burned out. I was running it hard and had to put a blower on it to keep it from frying. The vent holes got clogged up and so it couldn't keep cool enough and that of course was the end of the 2kw BOMA. The T8f chain would break randomly running the over watted BOMA. About once a month, I was putting it back together. I kept extra chain with me all the time and a chain breaker. When the motor fried, I upgraded to a larger motor and never looked at T8f again. It's fine for low wattage use, but that's all. More than about 2500 watts and it breaks randomly. 219 sprockets are readily available and cheap since just about every go-kart on the planet uses it and it's good up to about 20hp or 10kw. It's quiet and durable and reliable. You have to be sure your chain lines are dead straight becasue it does not like bending at all, but that is the worst problem you will have. I pretty much swear by 219 chain and sprockets! Converting the blue scooter to 219 had a few complications. I had to get an adapter laser cut that would adapt the 3 bolt pattern on the wheel to standard KART 6 bolt pattern. I had to get an adapter made that converted the 12mm shaft diameter of the motor to the 3/4" ID of typical 219 motor sprockets. I had to get my chain line dead straight. A little off and the chain eats the motor sprocket teeth. More off and it just derails. After that it was super reliable and never had a problem.

The Currie runs on 219. I had to do pretty much the same thing. The C80100 has a 12mm shaft. I got an adapter that converted 12mm to 3/4" so I could mount a typical KART sprocket. The back wheel had freewheel threads. I got a 23T fixie sprocket and drilled it with the hole pattern for another of those KART adapters I got laser cut. It was perfect. Then it was some work to get the chain line dead straight and I was done. I've had a single problem with the chain line. I forgot to put blue locktite on the freewheel threads so the fixie sprocket couldn't come unthreaded during regen. Super easy fix...with a little blue locktite! AT thanksgiving in 2017, I took it with me to Arizona when I went to visit my sister. Her house backs up to a local mountain that is covered in mountain bike trails. The scooter tore up them like they didn't exist. I did have 2 problems. The scooter is low to the ground so it doesn't go over large rocks at all and since it has so much power, keeping the front wheel on the ground while pulling hills was constantly a challenge. I never intended it to be used on mountain bike trails, but it did great! The chain line was perfect, it never gave me a moments concern. 219 is really great stuff!

I'm close to completing a 6kw 50cc sized moped build. It runs on 219. It has a 32,000mah pack at 20S or 82 volts. I expect to go 60+ on it's 3.00x12 tires.
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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 25 2018 10:17pm

Something else to consider...

Build your own battery pack. Get the cell you want, get the BMS you want and build a BOSS of a pack! There's lots of threads on ES about pack building. Here's mine and quite a few of my pack builds. I never buy prebuilt packs. I always make my own. OK...I will start with readily available LIPO packs if that's what I'm using, but then after that it's my build.

My excellent adventure through some battery builds: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 14&t=76013
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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 25 2018 10:24pm

Buk___ wrote:
Jan 24 2018 1:01am
drc wrote:
Jan 23 2018 5:01pm
I have this scooter

...

From a cold and wet UK
Where do you ride it? I didn't think powered scooters were allowed anywhere in the UK?
Go talk to Ianhill on here about electric scooters in the UK. Him and I have been in touch for a good while now.

Ask him where his scooter thread is too.
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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by drc » Jan 26 2018 11:47am

Cheers EG, your input is appricated. first task is to get a speed controller . the Kelly 12f is the one i will choose im just waiting to hear back from PV on this.

Next is to take stock and look at the possibility of me doing a DIY Lipo or look around for someone to build me a Lion set up.

Time to delve into the forum and learn new things. i will post a pic of the scooter as this always makes things feel a bit more personal.

motor option is still not decided . but after reading ianhill's faggio build i was impressed with what he got out of his boma. but he looks a fair bit lighter than me. anyway on wards.

Just been for a zip around our village and hit 27 mph with 10:54 gearing as a bench mark. it feels so much faster than it is when your in a car. Apparently this is the speed Usain Bolt hits!

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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 26 2018 4:21pm

drc wrote:
Jan 26 2018 11:47am
Cheers EG, your input is appricated. first task is to get a speed controller . the Kelly 12f is the one i will choose im just waiting to hear back from PV on this.

Next is to take stock and look at the possibility of me doing a DIY Lipo or look around for someone to build me a Lion set up.

Time to delve into the forum and learn new things. i will post a pic of the scooter as this always makes things feel a bit more personal.

motor option is still not decided . but after reading ianhill's faggio build i was impressed with what he got out of his boma. but he looks a fair bit lighter than me. anyway on wards.

Just been for a zip around our village and hit 27 mph with 10:54 gearing as a bench mark. it feels so much faster than it is when your in a car. Apparently this is the speed Usain Bolt hits!
Which Kelly are you looking at? I've used their controllers before. I prefer the PV controllers since they are fairly open source and hackable.

LEt me ask a question? Are you wanting to make a real hobby out of EV building or is it just a one time deal? If you intend to expand and to do more builds, then you might want to learn how to do a lot of things yourself...such as build your own packs. If you are wanting to do a one time build, then don't bother. I'm personally in this for the long haul. I've completed 2 builds. I'm about done with my third build and I'm already gearing up for the 4th one. For me this is a more of a passion. If that's not you, then I need to refocus what I say some what.

With your factory set up a stronger battery pack at the same voltage, the scooter is going to be stronger and faster. You will lose weight by getting rid of the SLA's. a lithium pack is going to weigh less, be smaller and outperform the same capacity SLA battery pack. You will gain lots of available power with that one change alone. SLA's are really saggy. Put some load on them and the voltage drops a good bit. Put more load on them and the voltage drops much more. LIPO and LION are far less saggy so loading doesn't kill performance as much. My Curry under max load drops 1 volt at most. The blue scooter drop 3 volts. On SLA that would be more like 5-10 volts. This alone will make your scooter feel much more responsive.

A better controller is going to allow you to set the controller to the best your motor can do. I'm going to bet that your factory controller is only getting 70% of the performance your motor can produce.

Get a better battery pack that operates at higher voltage and more current...82 volts instead of 48 and 80 amps at least. You will gain 20-25mph. When you reach 27mph and the throttle is half turned and the scooter is still accelerating, you'll be beaming from ear to ear.
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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by drc » Jan 26 2018 8:15pm

Thank you , I am two minds if I'm honest do I commit to this or not . If I may I will give you a bit info on how I can see this being played out I will try and explain ? Historically when I get into a protect it gets my full attention and I spend lots of time researching ,learning making mistakes and doing it again until I'm happy . Now this comes with a cost and I have learnt over more recent years I have found it easier just to pay for the right product or service so your not revisiting the issue again shortly down the line. It all started with cars . I was at uni 18 years back and had a Nissan gtir that was a project and took me several years to rebuilt ( nut and bolt level) and I kept a log on a forum , enjoyed the finished product , was incredibly proud , let it sit in a garage ,then sold it. Next I had a Honda Crx , same again , then another Nissan , then a mini, then another Honda and so on and so on. Now with all these cars I spent a lot of time and vast amounts of hard earned money and it was all done out of passion . As in all cases I sold the cars months if not years after completion but I was always tinkering as there was always things that could be done better and in most cases theses projects have been my second car so they lived in a garage or drive for most of the time I had them.

So my life has moved forward with family , work commitments etc now I'm again at a point where I want something to sink my efforts into. I bought the scooter as a bit of fun but the bug has bitten me and now I'm at the cross roads again. Before cars it was RC cars , building bikes , go karts ( still have the RC's and 1 old Marin bike) . So that's me . I have the ability but I don't want to loose to much money and time and as this is a new relm I'm going to want to learn and understand as much as I can and as I think I'm insightful I have never really understood electronics only to the level of wiring things up and the odd bit of soldering.

Hope this makes sense .

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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 26 2018 9:50pm

Working on car and go-karts will come in handy on EV's. I'm working with a guy that's a Chef in NYC on his scooter. He has very little mechanical skills and that makes getting things modded and built much harder.

If you want to go for performance, this scooter can be improved a lot. I can tell you what not to do or get and that will help you not waste money. If you go full Monty on this thing, expect to spend some time making changes. My Currie has about $800 in it between all the various power upgrades and then discoveries about the factory components not holding up to the power. That's not too bad. good luck finding a new kick scooter that matches mine for $800. You'll pay $800 and then it will do 25mph and get there slower than your grandma in her mobility chair.

I want to pass cars. I want them to think they are so easily going to pass me on my slow ass scooter and then they find they are breathing my dust. I want to keep up with traffic. Cars go 50...why can't I on my little scooter?

So if you want to go full Monty, that's going to mean modding a good bit. It means some decent amount of time spent and about $800 in parts...if you do all the building yourself. To get someone to make me a custom made pack that does what I want will cost about $1300 by itself. Do it all yourself, learn loads and and loads, save a lot of money, but spend a lot of time OR spend a lot of money for someone else to do everything for you. I want to learn and to get better for my next build and I'm cheap so I do it all myself!

As a result of doing it myself I have 12 fet controllers that do 4kw with no problem. I'm modding further to get 4500 out of them. I have packs that max out the space available. I have a fast scooter that you better hold on tight or it will shoot out from underneath you!

You can't do everything, but you sure can do most of everything on an EV for real power and speed.

Personally, I hope you get addicted! I've been a modder my whole life. As a 9 year old, I was making the lawnmower stronger or making my moms curling iron heat faster...or whatever. As a teen, that just increased and I got into electronics lots more. I'd seen EV's from time to time for years. Finally in 2015, I decided it was time to go shopping for one that I could mod. I was looking not for what was a package deal ready to go today, but what I could double the performance on. FOUND IT, DID IT! LOL...got addicted! Built another one even better and smaller, finishing up on a third/4th at the same time, gearing up for the big one that does 100+ and 100 miles range. Yeah I love this stuff! I have been a long term avid paintballer. I ran a speedball team for 6 years. I played PB for 9 years straight and was at the field every weekend for 9 years. Right now I have 10+ paintball guns and loads of other PB related gear. I can just about supply full PB gear for 5 people at the same time. I'm giving up PB for EV's. That's how much I like them!

Kick-ass fast home built rides that no one can touch...yes please!!! Can I have another please?!!!

My blue scooter saw lots of miles...about 5000 and got used every day back and forth from work. It has 40 miles range...no slouch! My last girlfriend for 6 months straight never saw me drive a car because the blue scooter was doing everything I needed. The Currie is so much smaller and faster, I never ride the blue scooter anymore. It's fast, but it's slow and weak compared to the Currie.
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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by drc » Jan 27 2018 8:36am

You post does tempt me and I think I’m in ! I really like your story it does remind me a bit of myself. So yes I think I will be taking this on with the initial plan to make it faster and more fun then start looking at the little things to improve what is already in place . As I don’t think I will be having project car for a while and I’m just about to turn my garage into a workshop/man cave/ listening room/ video games / cinema space that will be accessible from the house so there won’t be the space but I will not want my tools and kit collecting dust so this seems like the logical step.

Right . Onward

I have not had anything back from power velocity around the controller and the sooner I can get that ordered the better ( fancy selling one of yours).

Batteries

So I have messured up my space ( 1250mm deep x3000mm long x 2200mm wide) and see I should be able to squeeze 5 of these batteries in series ( pending the new speed controller is not bigger than my stock one)

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-h ... -pack.html

giving me good power and duration on a budget. 10c cells should hold up to my plans even if I went to the alien power motor you suggested?

This seems like the cheapest way to do it and it seems straightforward connecting these up but My Chinese connection for a lion battery is going to be a a few hundred quid more so I’m going to keep options open . If I had a lipo set up I would need to factor in a battery monitoring system for the scooter,wiring ,charger and consumables so the cost would creep up getting closer to the overall cost of the Chinese battery option .

That’s it for now . I will research more when I have more time.

If other have links to cheap lipo packs that would work out please post them up.

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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by drc » Jan 27 2018 2:35pm

A Lipo Charging question and please keep your answer simple as I'm still riding around with my L plates.
I currently have a 80w AC ( overlander) lipo charger which was fine for my RC days as it maxed out at 6 amps for charging but if I was going down the route of 5 sets of lipos ( 4s 16000mah 10c per pack) how would I charge them and ar what rate? Or would I need a new charger?

Any guidance would be appricated.

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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by drc » Jan 27 2018 3:31pm

So my conclusion on charging large multicellular lipos is this : get a lipo voltage checker and as long as all cells are with in 0.1v your ok. If not charge it individually on a balance smart charger. If all is in the green then pop them all on a fused balance charger and plug into this:

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/skyrc-ultim ... -plug.html

And walk away ( ensuring to put the packs in a no combustaable enclosure before said "walking away").

Or just fork out a li-ion set up ! But where is the fun in that.

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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 27 2018 3:51pm

drc wrote:
Jan 27 2018 8:36am
You post does tempt me and I think I’m in ! I really like your story it does remind me a bit of myself. So yes I think I will be taking this on with the initial plan to make it faster and more fun then start looking at the little things to improve what is already in place . As I don’t think I will be having project car for a while and I’m just about to turn my garage into a workshop/man cave/ listening room/ video games / cinema space that will be accessible from the house so there won’t be the space but I will not want my tools and kit collecting dust so this seems like the logical step.

Right . Onward

I have not had anything back from power velocity around the controller and the sooner I can get that ordered the better ( fancy selling one of yours).

Batteries

So I have messured up my space ( 1250mm deep x3000mm long x 2200mm wide) and see I should be able to squeeze 5 of these batteries in series ( pending the new speed controller is not bigger than my stock one)

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-h ... -pack.html

giving me good power and duration on a budget. 10c cells should hold up to my plans even if I went to the alien power motor you suggested?

This seems like the cheapest way to do it and it seems straightforward connecting these up but My Chinese connection for a lion battery is going to be a a few hundred quid more so I’m going to keep options open . If I had a lipo set up I would need to factor in a battery monitoring system for the scooter,wiring ,charger and consumables so the cost would creep up getting closer to the overall cost of the Chinese battery option .

That’s it for now . I will research more when I have more time.

If other have links to cheap lipo packs that would work out please post them up.
I do have a 12 fet controller here that I've partly modded for max power. It could go your direction. It still needs a secondary heat spreader and I think I haven't messed with the shunts yet. As a result, it would be limited to about 2600 watts and not the 4kw that I'm currently getting. I bought it to experiment on to see about getting 4500 watts or a bit more. I think if I switch to the CSD19536KCS mosfet that I can successfully pull 5kw out of these 12 fet controllers. That's continuous...I don't ever state burst specs. They are pretty useless.

There has to be something wrong with the dimensions that you posted. 3000mm is 118" or nearly 10 feet. There's no way your battery bay is 10 feet long. LOL! Recheck those numbers!

My battery bay...and that's the the open rectangular hole that I can drop a solid block straight down into is 317.5 x 216 x 120.5mm. If I take off that trailing zero on each of your measurements, then your battery bay is very close to mine...enough so that measuring error would account for the differences.

So I have 3 battery ideas for you. The multistars will get you going quickly and cheaply since you can do all of it yourself with just a decent soldering iron. Graphene packs may also fit and they are better than multistars. Long term, LION is the best choice, but it costs 2X more and its harder to implement. So maybe get the LIPO packs now and then in a year or more when they are fading out, replace them with a LION pack. I mentioned Graphene packs. For the same capacity, they are slightly thicker than multistars. You saw my Currie battery bay. The black packs are graphenes and the green are multistars. You can see the size difference between the 2 16S packs. Graphene packs last longer, have more charge cycles and can handle higher discharge rates than multistars. They are a better LIPO. Consider using them instead of multistars...if they will fit.

If you go with 20,000mh of graphene or multistar, that will get you 20-25 miles or so and running at 35-40mph continuous. Probably more and that's on a C80100.

I'd have to see the specifics for your Chinese battery before I said I was comfortable with it. I can tell you the graphenes or multistars are definitely a solid solution. What cell is used in the LION pack? How many cells in series is it? How many in parallel? Those are important details.

I haven't talked about a BMS or watt meter or other electrical considerations yet. I wanted to get a feel for where your commitment level was first.

If you are going to build your own pack...LIPO or LION, then you want at least 1 of these BMS. I've used quite a few of them and they are pretty nicely made. If you want an intelligent BMS, then I can make suggestions there, but honestly, I don't see a need for it. Yimia sells these in 16, 20 and 24S. They are a solid and well designed inexpensive BMS. All of my EV's use them. If the amperage of one BMS isn't enough, split your pack in 2 and run dual BMS. For LIPO I recommend NOT running packs in parallel on the same BMS anyway. So if you go with LIPO's, You re going to want 2 BMS. Get the 80 amp discharge version.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Li-ion-BMS-PCM ... nvo8Mv9elQ

Your electrical system is designed the the cheapest way possible. That means every thing runs on 48 volts directly. You are going to want to change this. You are going to want a dual voltage system. The only things that run on battery voltage directly are the motor controller and watt meter. Everything else runs on 12 volts. This is easily achieved with a DC-DC converter such as these. As you can see they are quite inexpensive.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/stepdown-trans ... 212c8cff92

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-48V-60V-72V ... 0005.m1851

Why run dual voltage? Go spend an hour looking for lights, horns and paraphernalia that run at 82 volts..good luck! But at 12 volts, they are cheap and plentiful and come in 10,000 varieties. Running dual voltage also means all of your switches and small wires and lights and whatnot are running at a nice safe low voltage, not at 82 volts which can be bad if things get wet and shorts happen.

Next up...you are going to want to strip out all the wiring on your scooter. If it is anything like mine was, the wires are twisted together and poorly wrapped in electrical tape inside the battery box. All the wires are low temp vinyl insulated. You want to use high temp wire. The insulation holds up to abrasions better and they don't melt together if they get hot. Your wires will be exposed to the sun and weather. The cheap insulation starts to fail after a while in the weather. The good stuff doesn't. This was a hard lesson learned after I kept trying to bodge together the factory wiring and had problem after problem with it. Just pull out all of it and start over.

You may want better switch clusters or more accessories that you can turn on and off. Look at my last post here on switch clusters. Personally, I want to be visible and that means lots of LEDs strategically placed on my EV's. You'll see that in any of my build threads.
I do LED modding, in that same thread are lots of LED related things. Good strong head lights are just amazing! There's some decent Chinese lights that I've found that are pretty good and cheap too.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1353772

Chargers...ha! Buy one or build one. I build mine, but Chargery makes comparable chargers to mine that can deliver what mine do for a similar price. If you don't want to build it, Chargery, IMHO, is your best bet. BUT!!! Where's the fun in that? LOL! AKA...build your own. Meanwell is my best friend. They make good power supplies that are great for DIY chargers. I'm just going to say this...you want 25 amps of charging. For a decent capacity pack, it takes hours and hours at lower charge currents. If you can't deliver 1500 watts to the pack, it just takes too long to charge IMHO. At 800 watts my blue scooter take 8 hours to charge...ugg! All my chargers deliver 25+ amps.
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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 27 2018 3:57pm

drc wrote:
Jan 27 2018 3:31pm
So my conclusion on charging large multicellular lipos is this : get a lipo voltage checker and as long as all cells are with in 0.1v your ok. If not charge it individually on a balance smart charger. If all is in the green then pop them all on a fused balance charger and plug into this:

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/skyrc-ultim ... -plug.html

And walk away ( ensuring to put the packs in a no combustaable enclosure before said "walking away").

Or just fork out a li-ion set up ! But where is the fun in that.

You want a BMS on your pack...no matter what the chemistry. And LIPo is very safe. They don't just explode for no reason. That is complete nonsense! In my house right now, sitting on the carpet are at least 50 LIPO cells or packs. Nothing happens ever. I charge my LIPO packs in the EV, in my living room or garage or wherever with zero fear of fire. I leave them on the charger all night long, go to sleep and there's no problems. It's the BMS that is taking care of making sure everything is going well.

If you charge a LIPO to say 4.6 volts per cell...well then expect that things can go very wrong. The BMS wont allow that to happen any more than your RC charger did.

LION is a bit "safer" than LIPO, but on a BMS...it's an irrelevant difference.

You saw that picture of the battery bay in the Currie scooter...crammed full of LIPO's. It sits behind my living room door on the linoleum when I'm not riding. It gets charged right there...in the living room. I take it outside, close the front door and I'm off.
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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by drc » Jan 28 2018 4:18pm

So I thought I would post a picture to show you what it looks like and what I’m working from. I took it out for a steady run today in the countryside as I attached my sons child seat ( and child) to it so I could keep up with my wife as she ran 7 miles. Lots of fun!

Image

EG I can see you’re in the US California, right? Yes I’m bang smack in the middle of the UK (Leicestershire) .
so into the scooter stuff:

You mentioned a DC-DC reducer. Yes I fully agree this will be needed and I have no idea yet how to wire this up but I think I will get this sorted easily enough. My only issue I for see is will it fit with all the batteries and the new controller? but i like the idea of 12v as you say lights would be a fun option to explore.

The controller you have offered is a big yes please, could you firstly let me know the dimensions of it please. A few questions around the controller. Is there a way to wire up the throttle kill function for braking as I’m slightly worried that if ever the throttle sticks or it decides to run away I would have no way to stop it and if I do get a better motor etc I can see this being a worry for me. I guess this item will have the BT telemetry and the Mosfets you suggest? Also what do you do to the controllers to improve them?
As for the general wiring it will all changed as I replace and add items as the factory wiring is utterly shocking and adding big power would be bad .

The BMS offer is something I will take you up on when I get around to purchasing the lipos so thank you for that we will revisit that soon. I have not really looked into the BMS and what it does in depth. So, if I was to take the cell in the above link when it comes to charging the battery would be as easy as one or two plugs and set the charger up and leave it to do its job?
Chargers I think I will pick one up that can deliver the goods so I will be looking at the place you mentioned and doing research on this later. But if you want to make one im not going to object but lets see the battery option I go for.( thanks again) .

Going over to your question about the Chinese li-ion pack I have requested Samsung 30q cells and that’s about it . I will ask what the cell pattern would be and when I find this out I will forward it on. I have given the Chinese firm the correct dimensions ( taking a 0 off the earlier dimensions for space in the try lol). So lets see.
Your Alien power motor is this something that you would part with? Im fairly confident I could make a mounting plate/s for something like this .

Please drop me a PM re the controller and any other bits your willing to sell on and we can get that moving.

Thanks
Last edited by drc on Jan 30 2018 4:18pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by drc » Jan 28 2018 5:31pm

The cheapest set of batteries i have seen yet!

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/zippy-compa ... -pack.html

I could fit 6 giving 3x20s 74v@16ah or 8 (just) giving 74/20ah. That is given the dimensions on the packs are correct.

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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 29 2018 4:57pm

drc wrote:
Jan 28 2018 5:31pm
The cheapest set of batteries i have seen yet!

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/zippy-compa ... -pack.html

I could fit 6 giving 3x20s 74v@16ah or 8 (just) giving 74/20ah. That is given the dimensions on the packs are correct.
Except they are 4000mah. Don't bother with anything less than 10,000mah for a stand-up EV. for an e-board lower capacity packs are useful. The smallest capacity I've ever used in an EV is 8000mah and that was long time ago. 10,000 and above is much more compelling. I'm about to buy 8 16,000mah packs...just as a point of reference.
Last edited by ElectricGod on Jan 29 2018 6:57pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 29 2018 6:46pm

Looks like your photobucket account is not working.

BTW...for images you need everything inside the quotes "{img]Direct URL Here[/img]" to display pictures. I think you picked the IMG URL instead.

Colorado, not Cali, but since you are in the UK...close enough.

Wiring isn't overly hard. Just assume that you are going to make your scooter inoperative for a while until you get it rewired.
You want to get some high temp wire, pretty much anything 26 awg from Beldin will do fine. You will want at least 10 conductors and realistically more. Assuming you do what I do, that's 3 for throttle, 4 for watt meter, 3 for directionals, 1 for horn, 1 for head lights, brake lights, 2 or 3 more for other lights. So that's 15 conductors or so up to the handlebars. Ground and +12v will be common amonst everything so it's best to have a couple of those in the harness. A lot of Belden wire comes with an outer shield. I use that for my ground wire since it has a 26 awg wire in it usually. I think you wanted to be able to disable the controller from the brake levers. I think you also want brake lights. These 2 things can't run from the same switch at the lever so you will want to get a second set of switches and mount them to your brake levers. The switches are super cheap and readily available on ebay. I just don't bother with controller disable and as a result I need the switches for brake lights only. Anyway, that's another wire for the disable. Most things need either ground or +12 volts. Since the brake lights need 12 volts to turn them on and the controller disable needs to pull that signal to ground, you can't have both on the same switch. If you can find those brake lever switches in dual pole, well that would effectively put 2 switches inside the same switch shell.

I can show you what kinds of lights I think are decent and what's crap. Assume your factory lights won't be reused since they are set up for 48 volts and are probably not very bright. They can be modded for 12 volts if you want to reuse them, but there's better options.

It's just an opinion of mine and you can ignore it if you like. I want to be visible. My scooter is small and fast...far faster than it looks and certainly much faster than it was coming off the factory floor! as a result, I want people to see when I'm changing lanes, see me slow down, have good sight of me because I'm lit up like a Christmas tree. LED's are the answer here. Ever get creamed by a car when you are on a bike doing 30mph? It hurts a lot! I want to avoid those sorts of things if at all possible so lights help a lot. My blue scooter has about 6000 miles on it. Lights have saved me quite a few times! As a result, I have a couple of sets of side lights, front, rear and side directionals, brake lights, tail and head lights and a 110db horn. I'm haulling ass on a very small, fast and nearly silent machine. I'm much faster than bikes...so will you! Make yourself stand out.

Just assume you are getting a DC-DC converter and buy it now. I can show you how to hook it up later.

This is another safety thing...throttles. I didn't notice which you have half twist or full grip twist. Both are fine for a sit down machine, but for standup they are not ideal and they require that your right hand is twisting while you are holding on. The only thing that keeps you on the EV are your feet and hands. Make those things as secure as possible. Use a thumb throttle instead.

Another safety thing...I really didn't pay attention to your deck. If it's plastic, make a new one out of plywood and then cover the top with grip tape. My deck was plastic and a little bit of water or some mud and your feet slide around. Grip tape keeps your feet securely plated. I take 90 degree turns leaned over at 40-45 degrees and I just stay planted on the scooter.

Watch this video of me on my blue scooter...there's some solid 45ers in there. This was on the old 2kw BOMA and before I switched to 219 so the chain is fairly noisy. Same for the brakes. They hadn't been upgraded yet. It still got up and went. I think when that white truck passed me I was doing 35. going past that lake on the left I'm doing 45ish. Are you supposed to go 25 through neighborhoods? I forget? ;P Most of the time I'm doing 30-35mph with a few bursts faster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjlvqCR ... rR&index=9

I found a video I forgot about on my blue scooter build. It's not exactly like this anymore. I did eventually get the chain tensioner moved to the return side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdC119N ... UWoxep2mrR

controller mods...go look here. There's pics of a 12 fet in there I modded. That's not exactly like the controller I have for you, but pretty darn close. I eventually blew up that controller doing very stupid things to it. It happens!
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =4&t=90536

The BMS I typically use comes in 16S or 20S and it won't work on odd cell counts, so you will want to use those cell counts. There's BMS that will do odd cell counts, but honestly just build around 20S and count yourself lucky. I never do odd cell counts. If it's not in 4S increments (12, 16, 20, 24 and so on), I just don't bother. The BMS will do all the balancing for you...like your RC charger does, but for 20 cells at a time. You'll also be getting a power supply that can deliver 82 volts. We can talk about that later.

chargers...yes...I do build threads on just about everything...
Build your own charger: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 6#p1316096

C80100 motor... I'd have to buy one for you, mod it and then send it to you. I want another one myself so if/when I get you one, I'll be buying at least one more for me. The C80100 on my Currie was a bit of a learning process. I ruined the factory motor shaft figuring out what I should do and how. That won't happen again. BTW...without really hard drills (I use carbide drills), you can't drill the shaft. Top of the line HSS bits will usually cut the shaft, but use oil becasue you will be bearing down and creating a lot of heat. Cheap HSS bits don't cut hardened shaft at all. I have the same issues with hardened sprockets and a few other things. Carbide bits while expensive and brittle and must be used with care, will drill anything...even other really hard drill bits that are not carbide. Using the wrong drills was how I botched the factory shaft. That and I ended up with several bits that couldn't cut butter afterwards!


drc wrote:
Jan 28 2018 4:18pm
EG I can see you’re in the US California, right? Yes I’m bang smack in the middle of the UK (Leicestershire) .
so into the scooter stuff:

You mentioned a DC-DC reducer. Yes I fully agree this will be needed and I have no idea yet how to wire this up but I think I will get this sorted easily enough. My only issue I for see is will it fit with all the batteries and the new controller? but i like the idea of 12v as you say lights would be a fun option to explore.

The controller you have offered is a big yes please, could you firstly let me know the dimensions of it please. A few questions around the controller. Is there a way to wire up the throttle kill function for braking as I’m slightly worried that if ever the throttle sticks or it decides to run away I would have no way to stop it and if I do get a better motor etc I can see this being a worry for me. I guess this item will have the BT telemetry and the Mosfets you suggest? Also what do you do to the controllers to improve them?
As for the general wiring it will all changed as I replace and add items as the factory wiring is utterly shocking and adding big power would be bad .

The BMS offer is something I will take you up on when I get around to purchasing the lipos so thank you for that we will revisit that soon. I have not really looked into the BMS and what it does in depth. So, if I was to take the cell in the above link when it comes to charging the battery would be as easy as one or two plugs and set the charger up and leave it to do its job?
Chargers I think I will pick one up that can deliver the goods so I will be looking at the place you mentioned and doing research on this later. But if you want to make one im not going to object but lets see the battery option I go for.( thanks again) .

Going over to your question about the Chinese li-ion pack I have requested Samsung 30q cells and that’s about it . I will ask what the cell pattern would be and when I find this out I will forward it on. I have given the Chinese firm the correct dimensions ( taking a 0 off the earlier dimensions for space in the try lol). So lets see.
Your Alien power motor is this something that you would part with? Im fairly confident I could make a mounting plate/s for something like this .

Please drop me a PM re the controller and any other bits your willing to sell on and we can get that moving.

Thanks
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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 29 2018 11:04pm

I have no idea how stout the motor to shaft support is on this motor, but since Alien designed it to drive from the shaft, it has to be pretty decent. The rest of their outrunners are stout motors, but they don't reinforce the bell to shaft mechanics very well. As a result, the need for modding to make them solid. This motor might already be ready for direct drive from the shaft.

http://alienpowersystem.com/shop/brushl ... 0kv-5000w/
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Re: first post. Looking for some scooter upgrade guidance

Post by drc » Jan 30 2018 4:44pm

So the information is coming in thick and fast ! so i need time to digest everything . so my photo bucket is fixed for now so i will use this to post progress so watch this space. This is going to be a slow build as i want to tackle each part in bite size pieces .

in answer to some of the questions : i have replaced the deck and fitted a solid plywood deck and grip taped this. this was done on day one of ownership. the last thing i want is to slip of in a corner due to a slippy surface. i have also taken the advice an orderd a thumb throttle as being planted on the scooter will give me full control. I have also picked up a 3 position handle bar switch for toggling the different settings ( jogging speed, traffic speed , and all out hell speed) .

The controller is being planed and developed by EG as this is the brains of the operation and needs to right!
so this is something i am going to read up on for the next .

i plan to research and source all the part after this and lay them out and build it all in one go. Well that is the plan .

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